Feminization of TPM & SW

If you're going to CLAIM that 'the very basis of Western Civilitzation' is 'protecting women' then I think you're going to have to offer some supporting PROOF for this claim.

Not to prove that claim, but an interesting, obversation along those lines. Being in my 20's and single, I know lots of single people, hundreds, both men and women. I notice that a large percentage of the single women I know do not feel safe living alone, no matter how good or nice a neighborhood they live in. They prefer having roommates. And, they feel safer around men (boyfriends, male relatives, or just guy-friends, doesn't matter), and don't like going out after dark alone. That's not to say they all have roomates, spend lots of time with men just to feel "safe", or that they never go out after dark alone, but it's a self admitted insecurity that women single women I know, even strong willed, proactive and successful women, have confessed to me. Now, I know very few men who feel this sort of insecurity.

So, from this, I gather that it's not just men who feel the need to protect women, but a likewise desire of women to be protected on some subconscious (or conscious) level. If this is true, then shouldn't the idea of masculine "protection" be worth evaluating and not just disguarded as obsolete? There seems to be some natural ingrane psychology at work here.

 

Maybe TJ would be happier in Afganistan. I hear women know their place there - definitely no female star pilots

 

Duckman:

Maybe TJ would be happier in Afganistan. I hear women know their place there - definitely no female star pilots

Perhaps you would have been happier in Nazi Germany or the former Soviet Union where such Western Civilization concepts were taboo.

 

"There seems to be some natural ingrane psychology at work here. "

Is it biological or cultural? Perhaps its the result of living in this society.

Women in a lot of European, Latin American and Asian countries feel perfectly safe walking down the street at night. (Probably less so in big cities, I would guess.)

 

Thank god lord of the rings is coming out, at least in these set of movies I don't have to worry about women fighting men. Oh yeah the only branch of the us armed forces that accepts women as fighter pilots is the navy to my knowledge, and guess what the men who fly with them don't care for it that much. Women in combat is fine as long as the division is all female, by not mixing the sexes together I don't see a problem with it, but samuri and knights were all men and it's what the jedi are based on, by putting women into the role of a jedi it shows that the movies of star wars are becoming less based on the myths of the past and more on our present day values which to me lessens the value of the story being told. just my two cents.

 

Is it biological or cultural? Perhaps its the result of living in this society.

Women in a lot of European, Latin American and Asian countries feel perfectly safe walking down the street at night. (Probably less so in big cities, I would guess.)

We see them walking around perfectly safe at nights, we also see that here, but do you talk to these women? How secure do they really feel? If you don't know many of them personally, it would be difficult to disbute my point, because the women who've told me their feelings weren't advertising them to the world. Noooo, they couldn't do that,not in todays society. They had to act secure and pretend not to mind, but they told me their fears because they felt they could be honest with me and admit an insecurity.

So, I then refer back to my original post.


Thank god lord of the rings is coming out, at least in these set of movies I don't have to worry about women fighting men.

Sorry to tell you this, but the modern-love-of-seeing-women-in-kick-***-roles has infiltrated the LOTR movies. Arwen has a larger role and saves the Hobbits in FOTR.

 

True Jedi...

I've considered what you have to say and simply put after looking over the evidence I come to the conclusion that you are wrong.

I believe that if we followed your advice more men would abuse their position as holding women in high regard and resent their role rather than adopt it.

I believe it would be held in abuse and lead to women being unable to actualize themselves or protect themselves legally if men resented them.

I hope you have the arguement against such a thing that it makes no sense that if men are ordered to look after women and adopt a natural roll that they would do such a thing.

But unfortunately the same arguement lies for religion.

I'm a Christian minister and believe extremely in the right for religious freedom of expression. If the world or society 'enforced' my religion as it was for many centuries then my religion would be the first to suffer.

Paradoxial isn't it?

Not all vocations are meant to fufilled by some men and quite a few women simply put have no desire/destiny to become married or bear children.

Some men have no business protecting women or fighting in combat because they are cowards, fools, and men with extremely low morals. Worse if these men learn to "talk the talk" then what we love and adore about the opposite sex (someday I hope someone who loves and adores me back in a similar way will meet me) can be perverted.

Female Genital multiliation in African societies is the worst example of this perversion as the surgical procedure is actually supposed to "help" women by keeping their 'uncontrollable sexual urges' under control. It's effects simply make it impossible for women to enjoy sex.

No benefit just a means of perverting the gift of a companion of woman to Adam...BECAUSE *MEN* have placed themselves above women for their own good. Worse many women in African societies protect it because they've been taught it was the right way by their "male gaurdians"

This is hardly a problem equivalent to the abuse of women elsewhere in the world like in Afghanistan (where women abuse is instituionalized in the name of a religion meant to liberate them) but where women are unable to pursue lifestyles and positions that they want to...

It is a very slippery slope to deciding what they may wear, eat, and do.

and the worst crimes are perpetrated against femininity.

Personally it is of my opinion that many women do not feel safe in their homes due to lingering societal pressure on them and a lack of community to make them feel stronger.

Something that should be stopped not supported.

I doubt we'll come to a full agreement on this end because your linking too much into life.

What do you think of Shmi Skywalker for instance?

 

All that Arwen nonsense is just that nonsense I will believe it when I see it.

 

Give me a break TrueJedi. I have no idea why you started such a thread. Just because YOU don';t feel women have there place as bounty hunters, jedi etc..doesn't mean anything but what's in your own head.

 

All that Arwen nonsense is just that nonsense I will believe it when I see it.

Can I gather then that you haven't seen the newest LOTR trailer?

 

[Thank god lord of the rings is coming out, at least in these set of movies I don't have to worry about women fighting men.]

[Re: Arwen fighting]

Guys no offense but do you even remember EOWYN?

The beautiful shield maiden of Rohan is the godmother of all women fighting men?

She's one of the greatest heroines in fantasy literature!

In fact it still disgusts me to read the Return of the King where she marries Faramir.

Why?

BECAUSE FARAMIR IS BENEATH HER

Eowyn is the perfect warrior princess and heroine and while I could feel decent about her marrying Aragorn....

She deserved at least an elven high prince or something similiar.

-Charlemagne

 

Lucas only has two daughters, TJ, not "several."

Of the complaints about SW, the "feminist pandering" one has to be one of the strangest. Lucas has already been accused of being a chauvinist pig and a racist, because there was only one major female role in the OT (Leia) and no people of color in the regular or supporting cast; when Lando Calrissian showed up in ESB it was dismissed as "tokenism." And don't get me started on the junk about Darth Vader being a "black villain" and Jar Jar being a racist stereotype.

Now Lucas is "pandering to feminists"? How, exactly?

So what if there are female Jedi? Nowhere has it been said that the Jedi are an exclusively male order. Also, I don't think Queen Amidala is a Xena-type superwoman. She's stiff and unemotional when she's the Queen, but hey, she kinda has to be. If anything, it made me feel for her more, because she's only 14 and has recently assumed this position of great responsiblity. When she's Padme, she's much warmer and acts more like a teenage girl, although she still gets haughty once in a while. I liked how she was vacillating between being happy to be free of the binds of royalty and still wanting her orders to be obeyed.

If anything, Lucas portrays female characters much better than the authors in the Exploited Universe.

 

Faramir is great what's wrong with him???

I"ve seen the trailer where she is holding the sword, I"ve also seen tyler and I quote, "Arwen is a kick ass chick but she is so not like Xena, she doesn't fight." hmmmmmmmmm so she holds a sword but doesn't fight interesting....

I remember Ewoyn one of my favorite characters in the books I never had a problem with her marrying faramir, I guess it just doesn't fit in well in today's liberated society.

 

Guys no offense but do you even remember EOWYN?

I'm reading the Two Towers now, and am at the scene where Gandalf and company meet the Rohan king. When does Eowyn show up?

I"ve seen the trailer where she is holding the sword

All I'm saying is that puts her in a similar role. Yeah, she's holding a sword and challenge ring wraths. Ring wraith, for goodness sake! I don't even known any bad ** men who would do that!

 

Today's "liberated" society!?

Good God man get out under from your rock, when I first read the book when I was nine and didn't know what liberated meant I knew that Eowyn was better than Faramir.

Faramir is an atypical backslapping generic good guy but does he has PASSION, STRENGTH, HONOR?

What exactly does he DO in the lord of the rings?

Does he command the army of the dead? Does he face a balrog? Does he do anything except get kicked around by his old whiny crazy 80+ father and have his brother killed?

NO.

Faramir was a guy I honestly could upfront say I could perform the same accomplishments of and while I can't fault the man for excellent taste (who would not love to marry the beautiful shield maiden of Rohan? To be her mate?)

She accepts because it seems she has no better prospects and her heart has just been broken by Aragorn.

It made me sick.

For a long while I hated Arwen's guts for it but now recently Liv Tyler and essays on it have shown me just what Arwen has been sacraficing for her love.

I just hope Faramir doesn't keep control over his kingdom and Eowyn rules while he minds his place (Like Galadriel and Celeborn)

she deserves more than to be a housewife but recognized for her accomplishments as a warrior and the essence of nobility in her own right.

UGH

The idea Eowyn did not marry a passionate sweeping love makes my teeth cringe.

 

Darth-Stryphe: "Not to prove that claim, but an interesting, obversation along those lines. Being in my 20's and single, I know lots ofsingle people, hundreds, both men and women. I notice that a large percentage of the single women I know do not feel safe living alone,"


"We see them walking around perfectly safe at nights, we also see that here, but do you talk to these women? How secure do they really feel? "


Well I don't know HUNDREDS of men and women in those regions, I'm mostly offering antecdotal evidence, base of things I've heard over and over again for decased, both in the media and from real people. My main point was that what you have observed maybe (at least partly) the result of cultural and societal factors, rather than pointng to some "natural ingrane psychology".


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Charlemagne19: "It is a very slippery slope to deciding what they may wear, eat, and do. and the worst crimes are perpetrated against femininity.

Personally it is of my opinion that many women do not feel safe in their homes due to lingering societal pressure on them and a lack of community to make them feel stronger.

Something that should be stopped not supported."


Sounds good to me.

 

What's wrong with female Jedi?

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing force cook and force vaccuum in action, if only for the special effects involved.

And let's not forget force make babies.

 

Where are the "women in masculine roles" in Star Wars that you're complaining about? (Sorry to change the subject- much as I love a mysogeny-filled rant...)

Amidala spends the whole film trying NOT to lead her people into war. By the time she does, it's firmly established that this is not in character for her, and she's only doing it because of Palpatine's web of deceit. That's a feminine role if ever there was one.

By "Bounty hunter", if you mean Aurra Sing, then this should be in the EU forum, because she's NOTHING to do with TPM.

Or do you mean Leia at the end of ROTJ, in a bounty hunter disguise which was quickly changed for a nice, feminine gold bikini?

Or is it Shmi, the caring mother who tries to do what's best for her son, when the chance for a better life arises?

 

I find it hilarious when people will just reach for things to belittle Lucas. It makes me laugh, but makes me sick at the same time. The guy made a freaking movie. Never did he expect Star Wars to become a mega film in history. There always will be the ones who use speculation as truth. "Ohhhh..Vader is a black bad guy, that's what he was saying..yeah." "Oh Threepio and R2 were supposed to symbolize gay men, that's why they weren't allowed to enter the bar." "Ohhh..JarJar is supposed to symbolize jamaican men, yeah..that's right"

Give me a break.

 

the result of cultural and societal factors, rather than pointng to some "natural ingrane psychology.

Maybe, but since they're all roughly my age, that means they went to school roughly the same times I did, and as I was growing up, I heard a loooot of talk about women being strong, independent and the likes, so undboutdely, so did they. If it's a psychological trait of our culture, where are they getting it from, and how come they're buying into it (the insecurity), instead of the feminist right stuff which is very previliant in our society (which would speak against such insecurities)?

 

"Or do you mean Leia at the end of ROTJ, in a bounty hunter disguise which was quickly changed for a nice, feminine gold bikini? "

Yeah, but in the end she strangled her Male Oppressor - with her CHAINS, no less. IF that ain't symbolism I don't know what is.

Aurra Sing was in TPM, so she has SOMETHING to do witht he movie. At least for the whole 2 seconds she's on screen.

 

" Maybe, but since they're all roughly my age, that means they went to school roughly the same times I did, and as I was growing up, I heard a loooot of talk about women being strong, independent and the likes, so undboutdely, so did they. If it's a psychological trait of our culture, where are they getting it from, and how come they're buying into it (the insecurity), instead of the feminist right stuff which is very previliant in our society (which would speak against such insecurities)? "

Becaue by some estimates at least 33% of all women will be the victim of rape or sexual assault. That's 1 in 3, which would be 33 of the hundred women you know. Beside the fact that despite all the hype, most women are NOT raised to be 'strong, independent' people. And in fact, most women, even today learn as they grow up that showing yourself to be 'strong and independent' can lead to ridicule and questions about their 'femininity'.

There's even a perjorative term for 'strong, independant woman.' Can you guess what it is?

 

TrueJedi,

While I agree with the fact that women have maintained the home and helped create and strengthen civilization, what are you referring to when you suggest that woman "were the ruling gender"? That's true inside the home but not so outside the home.

Humans first existed in hunter/gatherer societies, in which men would hunt wild animals and women would gather wild plants. Beginning around 12,000-8,000 BC, these female gathers discovered the art of simple farming, and soon humans could live in one place, grow their own food, and stop (to some extent) scavenging for wild fruits and vegetables. Since women had "discovered" horticulture, they were often in charge of the entire farming process. This brought with it great social and political power, and in many places women were the dominant gender for some time. The women did not physically protect men, but they protected them from starvation - a very real threat at the time.

Can you post a reference for your comments

I'm at work right now, so I can't consult any books on the subject, but I can offer you a few references I found online.

First, from the University of Alberta:

"The central role of women in horticultural societies tends to have political and sociological consequences. It is the women who own and manage their garden plots and pass them on to the next generation. It is the women who decide when their soil is depleted and where the village should move to clear more fertile ground. One of the more interesting aspects of horticultural societies is that it is often women who exercize political power and authority in their society. Anthropologists and travellers alike call attention to the special standing and respect that women enjoy in Austronesian cultures generally and the Philippines in particular. The honoured position of women in Austronesian and Philippine society, more than likely, remains a legacy from their, not so distant, horticultural prehistory."

Also, from this site:

"What was life like, once bands settled down? This was almost from the start a woman's world. She would mark out the fields for planting, because she knew where the grain grew best, and would probably work in the fields together with the other women of the band."

"The senior woman of a family and her daughters and sons formed the property-holding unit for the family. The senior woman's brother would be the administrator of the properties. His power, whether over property or in political decision making, would be derivative from his status as brother (usually but not always the oldest) to the senior woman in a family. This role of the brother, so important in present- day matrilineal societies, may not have been very important in the period we are now considering, between 12,000 and 8000 bc."

It's important to note that this did not happen in every society, but it was fairly widespread, even in the Fertile Crescent.

And, there's nothing to indicate that gender roles are arbitrary. Can you post a reference?

The evidence posted above indicates that, at certain points in our history, women held greater social and political power than men. This was simply a result of rather arbitrary historical events (i.e., the fact that women were gatherers rather than men, and thus knew more about plants). Later on, men domesticated animals, and in the process gained greater power. Again, simply the result of a fairly abritrary series of events. Events such as these all through history have shaped the way we define "men" and "women". Much of the stereotypes we have of men and women come from these events, and the social structures they create. This is more or less an arbitrary process, in that there was nothing biologically inherent in women that demanded they be gatherers and subsequently farmers. That was just a result of a long, complex series of events and cond

 

Becaue by some estimates at least 33% of all women will be the victim of rape or sexual assault. That's 1 in 3, which would be 33 of the hundred women you know.

And yet, if women are as good as protecting themselves as men are, then why is this a problem?

Beside the fact that despite all the hype, most women are NOT raised to be 'strong, independent' people.

I'd say about half the women who admitted this insecurity were either raised by single moms, or very pro-active families.

 

I train in ninjutsu. The Kunoichi (female ninja) were some of the most deadly warriors in Japans history. I know many modern Kunoichi in my class and in my organization. I would take any one of them women with me over most men. In this day and age, many men have become sheep and wimps. So all this gender stuff means nothing. I have a friend, Kiku, who is a Japanese women ranked at 6th degree black belt in our organization. She can whoop most men I know. Women are very powerful. It's these religionist, like TJ, who still go by old codes and outdated thinking.