Feminization of TPM & SW

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TrueJedi, Nov 5, 2001.

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  1. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    The problem is that women don't KNOW that they're as good as protecting themselves. Because they were always taught that acting violent was something that BOYS do, and it they did act 'outside their specified gender role" corrective measures (usually verbal) were taken to ensure that they didn't act that way. :)




    "I'd say about half the women who admitted this insecurity were either raised by single moms, or very pro-active families. "

    Uh, what's a "pro-active' family?

    My guess would be that a lot of them were raised in very traditional families with a very domineering father.

    So who's right?

    The sad thing is that the people these 'insecure' women are afraid of are in the same gender class as the so called 'female protectors'.

    Kind of ironic, don'tcha think?


    -----------

    By the way, has anyone mentioned Star Wars or TPM recently? ;)
  2. TPMrules23 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2000
    star 5
    I agree with my history teacher who thinks it would be great if we sent over all women troops to whipe out the Taliban. The irony would be great. How cool would it be if Bin Laden was killed by a woman!
  3. TPMrules23 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2000
    star 5
    If we never let women fight how do we know their skills in combat?

    The anti-women argument here is the equivalent to going back before Jackie Robinson and saying blacks weren't skilled enough to play in sports b/c there were no instances of blacks excelling in sports. It would be like going to Shakespeare's time and claiming women can't act because they'd never seen it happen.

    On somewhat of a side note, sometimes in movies, the director/writer in an attempt to make a strong women instead gives the women more masculine traits, and its not a coincidence that this is most often done by male directors in action movies. *cough* Wachowski brothers *cough* Lucas doesn't do that, Leia and Padme both are strong yet very feminine.
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    [And yet, if women are as good as protecting themselves as men are, then why is this a problem?]

    1.

    Likely because one would have hoped that society would reassure them that they don't have to worry that every man they meet on the street isn't plotting to violate her in the most painful, humiliating, and disgusting way possible.

    2.

    Because the majority of men are not going to be sexually assaulted. You don't have to look very far but to prisons and several other places to see that men can be sexually abused just as well as women and be unable to defend themselves.

    3.

    Society has insited the majority of women do not learn how to protect themselves and assurances of men who claim women need to protected leads to the propagation of it.

    However the protection myth is just that, a myth

    Watch a Clock Work Orange for a brutal description of gang rape that is likely the worst you can find (twice). The first woman is unprotected on the streets but even if she had an escort then most likely he is dead or beaten brutally by his "gang"

    The second woman was married and with her husband and he was forced to watch as the group brutalized him to the point of being in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.

    I've known victems of sexual abuse and more than I apparently wish I did because those numebrs become eeriely real.

    The First victem of sexual abuse that I knew was my girlfriend who discussed with me that she was raped by her old boyfriend.

    The pen ultimate betrayal and something which her parents and quite a few friends refused to believe because he was "such a nice boy"

    The second victem of sexual abuse that I knew was the fiance of one of my best friends whose own father was the perepetrator.

    The third victem was a girl who was physically threatened to be killed if she ever told about the abuse....and he was her 'boyfriend'

    My mother was an abuse victem of her first husband who went off scott free because she had no desire to press charges against the scumbag. However from that point on she was never able to treat my older brother with a unadulterated love...because the man who was his father was evil.

    In fact the only person I reasonably know "just attacked out of the bushes" was a friend of my mother's who had an abortion because rape resulted in the parentage.

    (I'm pro-life uner all circumstances and to this day it haunts her even though I know many women who are strongly in favor of the act)

    Society's reaction to the girl's claim? No one not even her parents believed her claim because she thought she was using it to cover up a relationship with a black boy that had gotten her pregnant.

    My mother assures me this is not the case.

    I don't think I need to make any arguements, the evidence speaks for itself.

    Frankly I wish all of these personal friends were like my martial arts fanatic (and yes tomboy) ex-girlfriend who broke a mugger's ribs outside Walmart when he tried to mug her and her mother.

    Or had a lightsaber to cut these monstersin half.

  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Ironic all this from a pacifist.

    To bring it back mildly on topic Star Wars presents for the most part a universe in TPM where gender and racial equality are the norm not the exception.

    We see women who are still very beautiful and feminine (Padme, Shmi, Leia) and in a variety of roles even as we see in some scummy portions of the galaxy that oppression is still the norm (Jabba's palace)

    We see a political lawyer at Chancellor Valorum's side as a woman and in general there is a great deal to say this government while not ideal is a "Golden Age" for the galaxy.

    However by the time of the Old Trilogy have you noticed that the Galactic Empire is has no sign of women or aliens whatsoever in their fleets? The majority of the fleet is quite deliberately all human (All white too though I doubt the empire would care about color), all aristocratic, and all men.

    The Rebellion however as George Lucas said is colorful with women, men, and aliens operating alongside each other and the head of the Galactic Rebellion a woman (Mon Mothma)

    An arguement can be said the Emperor is no combat monkey himslef but without the Force I'd give it to Mon Mothma in a fight between them.

    :)

    Another point Aunt Beru is an example of a traditionalist female mold as well. Apparently freely chosen and glad to be adopted....

    however hardly all...Uncle Owen after all is every bit the conflict between tradition vs. adventure.

    and he's a man.
  6. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    the only reason that argument doesn't really work about the old republic being diverse is really very simple, the rebellion, throughtout the first two episodes all the rebels are white males for the most part. As the times here changed (lucas' politics) so did his movies
  7. Star-Queen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2001
    star 1
    Okay there is diversified races and gender in Star Wars. SO the world is not going to end. If some thinks it's now uncool to be p.c(because now it seems it's like that we must call an open-minded person) or is simply pissed some people to not see their old and dated stereotypes anymore that's their problem.
  8. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    "the only reason that argument doesn't really work about the old republic being diverse is really very simple, the rebellion, throughtout the first two episodes all the rebels are white males for the most part. As the times here changed (lucas' politics) so did his movies "

    As the times changed? In 1980, when ESB came out, is the year Ronald Ray-gun got elected, leading to a 12 year period of Republican presidencies. So as the country got more conservative Lucas became more Liberal?

    I think drawing conclusions abotu Lucas' politics based on this idea is pretty shaky. In the DVD commentary, Lucas states that the idea of the gungans and the Ewoks comes from Viet Nam, the idea that a technologically advenced army could be defeated be a 'primative' one.

    (I guess that makes GL a Viet-Cong loving commie now. ;) )

    Of all the Jedi Knights we see in the OT (not including Luke), only 50% are white and 50% are green (of all things). In creating Yoda, Lucas obviously been caving into the small, green people lobby.
  9. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    how about all the pilots on yavin? all the leadership positions on hoth as well as yavin... and all the armed forces all white for the rebellion, fast forward to the next two movies there are more diverse, therefore the agurment that the old republic is pool of diversity is rather crazy to me, it's just lucas being politically correct it's really that simple.
  10. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Counterpoint...

    Alderaan is a Core World from what we've seen every bit as beautiful and aristocratic as the Empire probably was spawned from.

    We only really saw the Rebels from that particular planet on the Blockade Runner from the opening sequence...

    Plus one rebel population that likely had substantial recruitment from that planet as well.

    However much more diversity was shown in the Rebellion as we saw other areas...however seeing Two Death Stars (population 1 million), 1 SSD, several ISDs, and all the population within...

    It still seems quite uniform in it's Nazi like overtones. Unless the stormtroopers are all women with electronically altered voices...

    At which point we realize Darth Vader got over his love of Padme real quick.
  11. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    TJ, tell me that you are at work or something, and not just sitting back watching the argument you started get out of hand.

    Do you really think that Lucas was like "Hmm, i dont want the Fema-natzies on my case...so i will make the women more masculan." or "It would be cool to have strong women, it is not conicdered normal, it would make it seem more like a galaxy far far away..."

    Think
  12. DarthGunray Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2001
    star 3
    TrueJedi:

    I'm sorry you feel that way about my opinions. However, that's how I feel and that's the way it is.

    The only guy I ever met that wanted to see women in dominant rolls was really into being domineered by women because it got him excited. Perhaps that applies to you as well?

    Ummm...What are you trying to prove by this statement? Are you saying that I view women as sex objects? And also, what right have you to make such remarks about my sexual pleassures! I could say some really nasty things about you with all you've been saying through out this nonesense but I'm not, because it would only bring me down to your level.

    Oh, and one more thing I'd like to get across. I understand that you think that women are superior to men (in what regards I won't ask), but the only way you'd truely show your appreciation for women in general is to allow them to be equal to men. To have a society where people aren't judged by sex has been only an idea. An idea that's been harbored since the Enlightenment period. It would do you great justice to read up on the Enlightenment, it just might change your views.

    But, as a great Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn once said:

    "...you'll just have to accept his opinion. Fighting won't solve anything."

    So, I leave this discussion for good, and hope that maybe someone will be able to help you change your views.
  13. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    "how about all the pilots on yavin? all the leadership positions on hoth as well as yavin... and all the armed forces all white for the rebellion, fast forward to the next two movies there are more diverse, therefore the agurment that the old republic is pool of diversity is rather crazy to me, it's just lucas being politically correct it's really that simple. "

    Or maybe he actually BELEIVES in diversity. :eek:

    It's possible, you know. Look at the diverse group of creatures in the first movie.

    Perhaps he didn't realize how unadvanced people were - that seeing humans, aliens and even robots all working together was not a clear enough message about the value of diversity - so he had to get more explicit and specific on the the rest of the movies he made.

    I think Lucas ALWAYS thought that diversity was a good idea, and that he's not 'caving in; to some pressure group or other. The clearest evidence I can think if is Princess Leia grabbing the gun from Luke and taking over the rescue operation. George Lucas is an independantly wealthy billionare who can do whatever he wants to. If he doesn't succumb to Studio pressure or Fan pressue, why would he cave in to Political pessure? Is there a run for Congress in his future, or something?






  14. That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2001
    star 6
    First I'd like to point out that this whole veiw is entirely sexist.
    I'd next like to point out that I know quite a few girls he could make TJ sterile.
    It also does seem as he's just looking for another reason to bash TPM. He has no qualms with Leia or other rebels in the OT but TPM is utterly rediculous.
    This is like me saying 'What's the deal with Lando? Shouldn't all n*****s be in the feild picking cotton?' It would not be tolerated (and rightly so as I felt sick just writing that) on these boards.
    Well you would say 'That's because it's racist and is offensive to members' but this is highly offensive to me and I'm sure many female members.
    Just because you don't think women should be slammed in a kitchen forced to cook you vittles doesn't make you gushy gushy PC.
    No I haven't met a female bounty hunter. Ya know somethin'? I ain't met any bounty hunters! Have you? Do you have tea and muffins with them every Saturday?
    Women were much more active in the OT than they ever were in TPM. Leia was a rebel leader and the rebellion was led by Mon Mothma.
    In TPM we had a bounty hunter who just stood on a cliff side and Amidala who had a Leia role.
    There is little evidence to suggest things have changed.
  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    True Jedi...

    *must keep a straight face*

    HAHAHAHAHAH oh man you are a character.

    The only reason I think women should be able to pursue their own interests, be able to enter leadership roles (I don't believe in combat for ANYONE) is because I'm turned on by being dominated by woman?

    That's perversity on a scale only Frank Herbert could think of.

    I have more to my needs than sexual. A 2 sex working society will provide the Earth with a more functional system devoted to improving resoruces, a literate feminine sex will effectively double the potential number of artists /scientists/doctors/philosophers/ law-makers for the improvement of the Earth, and should mankind proceed to do something stupid en masse a 50% group of women with political rights might help keep them from engaging in War (doubly so I might add if your erroneous beliefs prove correct-If women naturally fail at combat placing them in power might dissaude against any more)

    However for the sake of arguement I will address my libido.

    Do I have any desire to wed a female, produce a family, and unite my soul in a Christian ceremony with a woman who is submissive to me? No, I have only a desire to be partnered with an equal. While I might be content to support a woman who was clearly my superior (as I suspect many spouses enjoy)....

    A Princess Leia, An Amidala, an Eowyn (Faramir is like me as I said), or a Princess Ozma...

    In fact it is a mild dream.

    Do I want to wed someone who is not actualized but unsure of herself? I admit my old girlfriend and I stayed together mostly because I felt the need to help her get through her trauma but when she left me I was glad because the relationship I realize was not built on a healthy foundation.

    Love is not built around protection but unification.
  16. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    "how about all the pilots on yavin? all the leadership positions on hoth as well as yavin... and all the armed forces all white for the rebellion, fast forward to the next two movies there are more diverse, therefore the agurment that the old republic is pool of diversity is rather crazy to me, it's just lucas being politically correct it's really that simple"

    Actually in the 70's and early 80's most mainstream movies were a lot whiter than they were today. This isn't (Necessarily) because most directors specifically wanted only white people in their movies. Especially movies shot in England. But I'm surprised you didn't mention that already.

    A lot of this comes down to Defaults. For a long time white was the default race and male was the default gender. If I said "I just saw the doctor" most people would picture a as the doctor, even the doctor happened to be a Native American Woman. Which is where a lot of the impetus for the so called "PC" movement. If people inly ever see white males as docotrs, then they don't even necessarily realize that there can be doctors who are not white or male. Which does in no way suggest that there shouldn't be any white male docotrs. it suggests instead that it's possible that ALL KINDS of people can become doctors.

    A lot of men who ARE in favor of women's rights are fathers o daughters. (Like Lucas. They are this way partly because they dont' want to see the possibilities of their kids future potential limited by ANY artificial means.




  17. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    "Love is not built around protection but unification. "


    So you're saying we should all be Moonies, then? ;) :D


  18. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I must agree with True Jedi on this point. Lucas copped a lot of flack for not having any black people in ANH. One of the reasons the Lando character was black. That doesn't bother me so much. However, eventually it just gets sooo obvious that he is throwing in token characters for Political Correctness. In ROTJ, we ee more black pilots. Now, in TPM, female Jedi, bounty hunters and pilots. I don't have a problem with feale characters. I just hate seeing people in films bc Lucas feels he has to.

    Seriously, it seems the rebellion was made up of male soldiers and pilots. There was only Leia and Mon Mothma in leadership posisitions. It made sense that only males would be sent off to fight in wars...like today we still have the same standard (even though women are allowed). So wouldn't you think decades before the rebellion, the same thing would have applied? Why would the past be so PC?
  19. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    Maybe Lucas wanted the movie to be accepted in countries that have women in the armed forces in combat positions. There are some out there. :eek:



  20. TPMrules23 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2000
    star 5
    What is wrong with Lucas taking grief for not having any black people in ANH? It's all white, that's plain boring. He should be concious about keeping his movies diverse, b/c an all white cast is stupid on many levels, particularly in a movie in a galaxy far far away that stresses diversity in its designs. It doesn't take away from my enjoyment of ANH at all, but he was still certainly correct to make sure he cast a black actor next time around.
  21. Metsuke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2001
    star 3
    Anyway he does it, he loses according to some of you. If he doesn't include women and ethnic races, then he will get crap for it. Now that he does, he still gets crap for it. I feel bad for Lucas, so many people b#$%h and complain about any and everything he does.
  22. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    While I have said my own .2 cents on the matter, somewhere a while back, I think this deserve an upping.

    While I disagree with TrueJedi and others, I think this topic of gender and gender roles (or perhaps a lack of it) is important, whether it is in Star Wars or our own world.
  23. Star-Queen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2001
    star 1
    Maybe GL sould put a all white cast and with Amidala always crying for help so that he could remain cool in their view.
  24. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    While I disagree with TrueJedi and others, I think this topic of gender and gender roles (or perhaps a lack of it) is important, whether it is in Star Wars or our own world.

    Yes, and the place to discuss it is in the Senate Floor, not here.
  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Maybe the PCing is a good thing?

    Lucas realizes it's closer to his "true vision" of a galactically diverse place to have many people of many colors, creeds, and sexes.

    The Cantina on Mos Eisley for instance.

    Of course on the Jedi Council he's going to have a lot of women, aliens, etc.

    A friend of mine once suggested that the Jedi Council should solely be composed of human men and women with one seat (Yoda's) reserved for the "token alien"

    So tell me would you think that more ridiculous than Lucas having women on the Jedi Council?
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