Feminization of TPM & SW

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TrueJedi, Nov 5, 2001.

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  1. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Admit I have not read all through this thread only the first 40 or so, will go back and finish reading, but wanted to comment before I forgot the points I wanted to make. Sorry if they have already been stated.

    RE: Women pilots

    Was just reading an article in a news magazine a couple weeks ago and the US Air Force is either 16 or 19 percent female. There were woman pilots bombing Afghanistan.

    RE: Female bounty hunters

    There was a series on USA network last year, based on a true story, of a woman and her daughter who became bounty hunters after their husband's, and father's, death. So they do exist in the real world.

    The SW universe, though technically a long time ago, is also far more advanced than our own. Women had, I'm sure, been "emancipated" for many more years than they have here, thus they would have had time and perhaps the time to develop the inclination to take on those things we see as traditionally male roles. Also I would hardly say the SW is overrun with female Xena's. We seen lots of male bounty hunters and happen to see one female one, who is caught. We see dozens of male pilots and one or two female ones. You know during WWII some of Russia's better pilots were woman. They were also some of their better shart shooters.

    As for female Jedi, why would it be any stranger to have a female Jedi than to have a 3 foot tall green troll as the most powerful Jedi? I doubt Yoda's species is normally very physically powerful. It's about the Force. When you are a Jedi "size matters not".
  2. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Guys, as much as I would love to respond to everyone with philosophy and logic that would train wreck your arguments, there's no way I have enough time to address over a dozen different members on this topic.

    So as I stated before, if some of you like seeing women in masculine roles in SW, that's fine for you, but as for me, I would rather see strong independent women like Leia who still have female vulnerabilities rather than female bounty hunters like Aurra Sing(?) who seemingly wipe away any such feature. Leia's character is great. She was a balance of femininity and strength. That and the gold bikini did it for me. :)
  3. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    Ok, I'm really impressed by the amount of info about Aurra Sing that you were able to glean from her 2 seconds on screen.


    As I was waiting for my stupid computer to rebook I was getting a snack and I realized something:

    "Traditionally Male Role" is just a Politically Correct way of saying 'Boys Only Club'.


    Talk about ironic. :D You'd think that someone who complains about PC-ness would refrain fgrom using euphamistic and evasive language.

    Maybe 'Boys Only' is seen as too offensive. ;)
  4. MORMEGIL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 2
    This is weird. Exceptions or no, economics should dictate what gets done by whom. Like if I can pick cherries and oranges better than you, and you can pick cherries better than you can pick oranges, I should still pick the cherries, because I like cherry pie better than orange juice anyway, and after all, I can always buy orange juice, but the cherry season is limited, so I better get my ass out there before I lose my chance.

    Oh, and the Diamondbacks are the bomb.

    EDIT: That post was going to be intelligent, but there was a point where the scratches on my watch became more enthralling, and I lost all desire to add constructively to the conversation. And no, I'm not on acid.
  5. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    I know I posted something a few pages ago that probably got some responses, but at this moment I'm pressed for time and also I fully expect this thread to get locked, and so since I'm not wanting to get caught up in some sort of massive spanking, if anyone wants to discuss my earlier post, just PM me.
  6. Dionysus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 1
    Don't worry TJ, you can PM your response to me when things settle down.

    :p

  7. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
  8. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    TJ has molested my inner child. This topic should be locked.

    And anyone with any sense should know that strong women are cool, from Catwoman to Leia to Sarah Connor. Grow up.
    :p
  9. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    How on earth is Aurra Sing a woman in a masculine role?

    Are there any other "women in masculine roles" in TPM?


    >>>>Expand your horizons people. Women are proven to be better pilots physically. Just a tidbit I'd throw out there.

    Probably because there's so many midichlorians in an X chromosome...
  10. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Duckman:

    TJ has molested my inner child. This topic should be locked.

    You should be locked up back in juvenile hall where you can't bother people. :p


    And anyone with any sense should know that strong women are cool, from Catwoman to Leia to Sarah Connor. Grow up.

    My advice to you is when you get beyond high school, you may actually understand the difference between Catwoman, Leia, and Sarah Connor (who I think are great) vs. Aurra Sing, female pilots, female ground combat troops, and female bounty hunters (who I don't think are good).

    Can you tell the difference, or are you just capable of blathering about nothing? :p

  11. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    This was brought up a little while ago, but i just want to respond with the thoughts that the rebels in ANH were white male human. At the time, i think Lucas was more worried with "Hopet the camera does not break down," or "hope i stay in budget," than he was "hope the macho women dont come after me."

    BTW, it is not earth, it is sci fi, it is ment to be out there and diffrent. I still say you can write allot of as just being a diffrent universe and for story, not for covering Lucas's but from the femenists.
  12. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Well for one thing, not thinking there should be female Jedi is just crap. Yoda clearly beleived that Leia was a possible Jedi candidate. Being chosen as a Jedi is based on midi count, not gender. So if they didn't have at least one female Jedi in TPM it would be inconsistant and someone would whine about that.

    The female pilot. I hardly think a pilot is a masculine role. She flying a ship, how is that masculine? Is that more masculine than Leia strangling Jabba? I also think that the point is missed that the Naboo pilots are not a military force. They are a volunteer security force. They're an entirely different animal from the Rebel army. So any comparisons are invalid.

    The female bounty hunter. I don't know any female bounty hunters, but why should earth be the basis for making these rules? And it's not like we saw her do anything, much less anything masculine.

    The fact is that no female in TPM acted any more masculine than Leia did in the OT so I don't know what the problem is. I think some people may be a little insecure about some things. :p
  13. HavocHound Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 4
    "The Amazons of Greek mythology, for example, inexplicably cut off one breast, mutilating themselves over a shame of their sex."

    I saw a documentary on Amazons that said they did that to make it easier to shoot a bow. Of course, nowadays a woman can fire a rifle, shotgun, or crossbow without having to mutilate herself.
  14. HavocHound Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 4
    It isn't "shallow" for a person to be who they are. In fact, it's shallow not to be. Men and women are different and that's good. Different does not mean unequal. We're not supposed to be the same.

    Look at Joan of Arc and Annie Oakley. Nothing they ever did made them any less women.

    P.S.: Jar Jar defies all stereotypes. :D
  15. HavocHound Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 4
    Neither feudal Japan nor ancient Rome set good examples for humanity. Samurai were nothing more than highly-paid mercenaries who the imperialist government used to do their dirty work. One of the samurais' favorite past-times was lopping the heads off peasants, which was considered by them to be a "great sport."

    The gladiators of Rome were prisoners considered to be expendable who were forced to fight for the entertainment of the rich, hedonistic, blood-lusting, decadent ruling class.

    It was that system that honorable men like Spartacus revolted against.
  16. HavocHound Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 4
    "Aren't women human? Aren't men human? Doesn't that make us technically equal?"

    equal, yes. same, no. Equality is not sameness.

    "Women deserve respect, they put up with a lot, and are then expected to sit watch the world go by?"

    Yes, they deserve respect, but no one expects them to just watch the world go by.

    "Why can't they go and take up tough jobs?"

    Why would they want to? Why would anyone want to if they had another choice? Work sucks! What about raising children? That's tough. But women are better equipped than men to do it. Generally, women have more patience and men are more agressive. That's why the man does better in the factory (or wherever) and the woman does better in the home.

    Of course, there are exceptions - and they're not all good. I can tell you from experience that 95% of female managers are just plain mean. Actually, most male managers are mean too. As a matter of fact, I think 99% of all managers are mean. But anyway, if you had the choice between staying home with the kids, baking cookies, having get-togethers with neighbors, etc. or working at a miserable job with a cruel boss breathing down your neck every day, which would you choose? Keep in mind that all jobs suck and all bosses are cruel.

    What is it about authority that makes a person turn cruel?
  17. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    If you don't wish to pick up God Emperor of Dune TrueJedi I think I can summarize the bullet points of the particular work.

    You may find it intriguing

    * The God Emperor (A big slimy snake creature) insists on keeping an entirely female army to be his personal bodygaurds instead of men.

    * Duncan Idaho's CCCXXIVIIIII or so clone (once the greatest warrior in the land) is appalled when he discovers women are fighting. To him it is the duty of men to protect women and disgusting to put them in combat.

    (Note this is just as far in the future as Star Wars and such attitudes are still fairly common)

    * Leto Atredies the Second is insane or a genius by Herbert's standards and explains causally that a female army is useful for his purposes because men will murder causally other men, rape, and send other younger men to die because of primal mating instincts. Basically the war on a most primal level while women's nuturing attitude will make combat a trained in vice.

    * Duncan Idaho still finds it appalling and considers it an insult to his sex. During battle he's horrofied that he's kept from rescuing his soldiers or fighting and disgusted by Leto's causal attitude toward their deaths (the difference between them and previous soldiers under his command being that they are women)

    * There's also a brief aside about homosexuality which Duncan finds apalling as well....Herbert was not optimistic about humanity's capacity to ingratiate sexual feelings and very instinct based. Leto's assitsant says the God Emperor (who is a sexless giant worm after all) considers it helpful to foster life/death relations such as sparta.

    * The degredation of women along with the whole fact he's enslaved the galaxy leads this Duncan to the conclusion he must destroy the God Emperor.

    I won't spoil what happens

    I understand perfectly your reservations but thus far I have Faith in George Lucas that he's going to keep a beautiful mythology together....and if that includes a bounty hunter then so be it.

    I doubt Lucas will ever do something "Starship Troopers" style because he just doesn't think like that.
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    The whole premis of this thread is trollish and hard to entertain.
  19. Metsuke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2001
    star 3
    There is something wrong with TrueJedi. Sorry man, but I think there is something seriously wrong with you. "Train wreck our arguments" LOL..
  20. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Let's not start taking digs at each other.
  21. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    The whole premis of this thread is trollish and hard to entertain.

    Thus sayeth the king of trolls. :p
  22. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    There is something wrong with TrueJedi. Sorry man, but I think there is something seriously wrong with you. "Train wreck our arguments" LOL..

    This coming from the forum's Satan worshipper. Thanks. :p
  23. Metsuke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2001
    star 3
    I am a satanist (opposed to religion), not a satan worshipper (worshipper of the devil, if there is such a thing). You need to understand the difference. ;)
  24. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    (Stryphe sees Dune reference, decides to risk rejoining argument).

    Charlemagne19, I see you picked up on my earlier Dune reference. Anyway, I put that in there, because, to me, although those are interesting theories, it shows just how %#@& up a society can become if it "de-masculined", by this, I mean that in God Emperor of Dune, the tradition male roles were given to women and men were denied those roles. I'm not just talking about the fishkeepers, though they are the focal point, but notice that the only "strong" male characters in that book were Duncan, and what's-his-face (Soyna's father). Duncan was powerless and frustrated and Sonya's father was a wuss, living in fear of Leto and fear for his daughter's safety (and fear of the fishkeepers). The women of that society had essentially become men, and not entirely emotional stable. But men had not become "women", so the feminine aspect of society was lost and deemed valueless.

    Now, this is a work of fiction, so it's difficult to equate this to real life, but I think it's an example of what could happen if things were to swing in the opposite extreme. The extrmeem being tht "masculinity" in the hands of men is bad, and "femininity" is useless. Read God Emporer of Dune, and I thnk you'll agree, that's one messed up world.

    Which isn't to say that people here are advocating the opposite extreme, it's just more of an obversation.
  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Counterpoint...

    The Fish Speakers didn't seem to be that unfeminine. Yes they were warriors but Duncan Idaho found his "previous incarnation" married to one of them with several children. It appeared that for the most part they "did their term of service" then settled down in wedded bliss. Furthermore they weren't described as near-men but very beautiful by Duncan Idaho that he (a man of no small restraint) was seduced by them.

    The main problem with the group was that they were built into a nunnery like covenant (brides of God) to an anthromorphic demonic creature which was absolutely self assured of it's omnipotence and benevolence.

    Furthermore the Bene Gesserit still seemed to be functioning as per normal beautiful women breeding whatnots (you'd think they'd have learned), the Ixians bride for Leto is the absolute eptimone of femminity in it's worst stereotypical form I think as well, finally "Leto's Peace" said the universe was becomming almost completely uniform....

    More or less it seemed if we can use Duncan's family as a marker the fact a Fish Speaker is a warrior has had very little effect on traditional family values.

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