Feminization of TPM & SW

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TrueJedi, Nov 5, 2001.

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  1. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    The Fish Speakers didn't seem to be that unfeminine.

    I beg to differ. Admittedly, FH did originally describe them as beautiful, but some of the very same women he described that way, he later described as being as-big-as-houses, and I'm not talking fat, I'm talking sheer muscles, so much so that Duncan, the warrior that he was, was intemdiated by them. Nayla is the perfect example of this. So, HB seemed to be inconsistant there, and in the end, he showed them (the Fisherspeakers) becoming more and more man-like throughout the story: bigger, tougher, more agressive. Yes, they had kids, but I wouldn't call what they did marrying and settling down. It was constantly referred to as "breeding". The notion of a family life was out the window. The only exception to that was, as you said, the previous Duncan.

    Oh, and Hwi. Yes, she was very feminine, but do you notice how that trait, that nature, was suppose to be used to bring done Leto, and with him, all of society? (Leto had society hard-wired so that his death would spell disaster if it came before he "evolved" to a certain point).
  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    [I beg to differ. Admittedly, FH did originally describe them as beautiful, but some of the very same women he described that way, he later described as being as-big-as-houses, and I'm not talking fat, I'm talking sheer muscles, so much so that Duncan, the warrior that he was, was intemdiated by them. Nayla is the perfect example of this.]

    Well ideals of beauty somewhat differ in this case. It is possible to tall and lithe and strong as well as being beautiful. The Valkyrie model from Conan the Barbarian for instance (Valaria the She Pirate-a standard of beauty not often seen in hollywood much often anymore)

    I may be misremembering things but Duncan the ladies's man I was never of the impression that he was particularly tall (well muscled certainly) either.

    Still you do bring up the point that I doubt these women spent their time picking out lovely dresses for balls and were Sarah Michelle gellar size.

    I concede the point there.

    Nayla was an interesting character and did show the interesting "double standard". I may be misinterpreting things but Herbert seemed to be implying that her attraction to Duncan was in part because a male warrior was something so utterly foreign to her...a potential mate who could relate to her and rival her in her skill.

    Why people find Atlanta an attractive figure in Myth and Athena.

    An interesting role-reversal.

    [So, HB seemed to be inconsistant there, and in the end, he showed them (the Fisherspeakers) becoming more and more man-like throughout the story: bigger, tougher, more agressive. Yes, they had kids, but I wouldn't call what they did marrying and settling down. It was constantly referred to as "breeding". The notion of a family life was out the window. The only exception to that was, as you said, the previous Duncan.]

    Counterpoint on the nuturing environment thing was that Leto upfront said that the Fish-Speakers took their "Brides of Leto" thing extremely seriously. Hwi by marrying Leto ultimately cost Leto the loyalty of his Fish Speakers and it stands to reason that the feeling was reciprocated.

    You have to ask yourself that if the Fish Speakers didn't have Leto to look up as a cult figure (their "Husband" if you will) would they consider love a more dear option. However that pretty much invalidates using the Fish Speakers as an example in any form anyway.

    [Oh, and Hwi. Yes, she was very feminine, but do you notice how that trait, that nature, was suppose to be used to bring done Leto, and with him, all of society? (Leto had society hard-wired so that his death would spell disaster if it came before he "evolved" to a certain point).]

    She was designed to be Leto's ideal mate but we also have to recognize that The Pax Atredies (as I call it) depended entirely on the society of the galaxy not being able to function without Leto.

    Rather like the Empire from Star Wars it was deliberately designed to be unable to function upon his death and in the EU it disentagrated rapidly within only 5 years or so.

    However counterpoint God Emperor of Dune made it quite clear that Leto expected the bumbling efforts of the Bene Gesserit, the Ixians, and Guild to fail. He also engineered his death with the explicit purpose of breeding Duncan and Sonya.

    I don't quite understand what benefit the Golden Path was but apparently extinction loomed as Leto's dominance led to compliancy so he had to remove himself...

    At least for a little while.

    Still Hwi did cause a rift in a CULT counterpoint and the mockery of Leto's sexual habits isn't that new among politicians
  3. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Can you imagine a world run by women where men were outnumbered ten to one? That would be heaven, if you ask me :)

    Oh and TrueJedi, insulting people and adding a :p on the end doesn't make it okay. You stuck-up, scruffy-looking nerf-herder you :p
  4. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Page 4 of a thread complaining about women in masculine roles, in a film with a total of... zero women in masculine roles...

    [face_plain]
  5. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Oh and TrueJedi, insulting people and adding a on the end doesn't make it okay.

    You should know, ducky, you're the pro at this. :p


    You stuck-up, scruffy-looking nerf-herder you

    Yes, yes, and no. :p
  6. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Good point cbjedi. :)

    Gardula the Hutt, as well as Aurra Sing, the female pilots, Amidala leading troops into battle, and Mon Motha running the whole show in ROTJ (where was she in ANH & ESB? It wasn't until ROTJ that GL became a feminist).

    It's a very troubling trend. :)
  7. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    What do you expect from someone who portrays the Most Evil Person in the World as a 'noble and heroic' Jedi Knight?

  8. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    And Gardula giving Jabba an erotic massage was also cut. However, that was probably for the best since after viewing something like that, most of us would have left the theater with severe emotional problems. That is, except for Darth23. He's no stranger to that kind of imagery. :p :D
  9. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    and Mon Motha running the whole show in ROTJ (where was she in ANH & ESB?)

    Cooking General Mandine's diner.


    What do you expect from someone who portrays the Most Evil Person in the World as a 'noble and heroic' Jedi Knight?

    What the heck are you talking about?


    It is possible to tall and lithe and strong as well as being beautiful.

    True, but some of his descriptions of certain fishkeepers were very manly (including Nayla). It seemed the more feminine and patette fishkeepers were young alcolytes. I'm sure there is some symbolism in that. Almost as if saying femininity is a thing of youth and after time they "learned" better.


    I may be misremembering things but Duncan the ladies's man

    That was Leto II's recollecation of Duncan. We don't see that in the first three books, though.


    that I doubt these women spent their time picking out lovely dresses for balls and were Sarah Michelle gellar size.

    Yeah, and what's the point of living in a society with no Sarah Michelle Gellar look-alikes? :D


    Nayla was an interesting character and did show the interesting "double standard". I may be misinterpreting things but Herbert seemed to be implying that her attraction to Duncan was in part because a male warrior was something so utterly foreign to her...a potential mate who could relate to her and rival her in her skill.

    Yes, it did say as much, and demonistrated her sexual attraction to his masculinity in the cliff climbing scene (but let us say no more about that -- yuck!)


    He also engineered his death with the explicit purpose of breeding Duncan and Sonya.

    Engineered his death? He also said he never knew when he'd die and refused to use his powers to discover it, and that if he died before completing his transformation, society would be destroyed. I got the impresion the reason his death ultimately didn't cause the demise of the spice was because it was a water death, thus allowing the sand trout to be freed again (and revealing the location of his secret horde didn't hurt, either).


    I don't quite understand what benefit the Golden Path was

    Golden Path = world peace.
  10. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    Glad to see this thread is civil again, I thought it was getting out of hand there for a while, I agree with stryphe about the women in the later books of dune as they replaced men's roles and lost their feminine side in the process.
  11. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    I was thinking about posting something serious here -


    but I changed my mind.

    :p


    (it was good though)
  12. Star-Queen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2001
    star 1
    "Why can't they go and take up tough jobs?"

    Why would they want to? Why would anyone want to if they had another choice? Work sucks! What about raising children? That's tough. But women are better equipped than men to do it. Generally, women have more patience and men are more agressive. That's why the man does better in the factory (or wherever) and the woman does better in the home.
    Of course, there are exceptions - and they're not all good. I can tell you from experience that 95% of female managers are just plain mean. Actually, most male managers are mean too. As a matter of fact, I think 99% of all managers are mean. But anyway, if you had the choice between staying home with the kids, baking cookies, having get-togethers with neighbors, etc. or working at a miserable job with a cruel boss breathing down your neck every day, which would you choose? Keep in mind that all jobs suck and all bosses are cruel. "

    Yeah it's true HavocHound with the increase of divorces or mothers left alone to raise their children working and having a good salary is a bad idea.

    The thread is civil again? Because TrueJedi is adding a face to his insults?



  13. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    Yeah, the silly faces confirm the fact that he doesn't actually belive the silly things he's been saying. ;)

    I think that all people have the potential to be good parents. Of course if you grow up with an absent father like most people these days -either no father in the house or a father who is a) always away at work and/or b)not there emotionally even when he IS home, then as a male you're going to learn that that's what 'being a man' is all about. Or more correctly, you're NOT necessarily going to learn some important skills that will help you be a good parent later in life.



  14. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Because TrueJedi is adding a face to his insults?

    Humor is wasted on the humorless. :p


    Yeah, the silly faces confirm the fact that he doesn't actually belive the silly things he's been saying.

    Just where the funny faces are located. Otherwise, it's real, my Gardula-loving friend. :p



  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Interesting persepective on God Emperor my friend.

    I think Leto did engineer his death however because in his conversations with Hwi he described in fairly explicit detail what was necessary. It was one of those shock scenes where Leto seemed to be describing the sluaghter unparraleled until he returned as a Messiah figure (the imagery he was implying at least) through the worms. Eh I may have been reading it wrong but Leto seemingly was counting on Sonya and Duncan to suceed.

    I think the Golden Path isn't so much peace as it is the survival of humanity...

    Whether those two are coharmonious in the mad mind of leto...who knows

  16. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Gardula the Hutt

    Which is a "male" role because...?
    :confused:

    How is "slave owner" a male role?

    (Is Gardulla the one next to Jabba in the pod race then? I would have thought that Jabba's girlfriend wasn't really a male role...)

    >>>as well as Aurra Sing,
    Which is a "male" role because...?
    :confused:

    How is "anonymous piece of scenery" a male role? (Sounds like some of the girls in my office...)

    I'd wait until Episode 2 or 3, where there's a (slim) chance we might actually find out something about the character before complaining that it's a "male role".

    >>>>the female pilots
    Which is a "male" role because...?
    :confused:
    (I think this one has been discredited by now...)

    >>>>Amidala leading troops into battle
    Now this is definitely a feminine role, seeing as the whole point is that she spends the entire film trying to avoid leading her people to war.
    Surely in that respect, a male character leading troops to battle would have far less impact?

    >>>>and Mon Motha running the whole show in ROTJ
    Which is a "male" role because...?
    :confused:
    Given that I'm from a country which was led by an elected female prime minister for about a gazillion years (including the entire duration of the Falklands conflict- not just during peacetimes) I don't really see that as a male role.

    Seriously, I don't understand where you're coming from on this one. If, I don't know, Darth Maul had been a woman or something then I'd see your point. But he isn't.
  17. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    The rumors of Margaret Thather's gender were greatly exaggerated.

    ;) :D

  18. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    SomeRandomNerd:

    If I have to explain why all of those issues are male oriented, then you probably wouldn't understand the explanation anyway. And Thatcher was like Leia, except without the gold bikini. :)

    Can you understand at least that much?
  19. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    It seems like every Hong Kong action or martial arts movie I see has at least one women kicking major butt is a Boys Onl- excuse me Traditionally Male Role.

    Not just certain big movies, but even movies I've never heard of that I come across on TBS or the Action Channel.

    I guess the PC'ers got to them too.

  20. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    I coudl say something.

    But I won't.
  21. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Don't insult your fellow forum members inteligence TJ.

    Don't worry cbjedi- I don't take a "no, I still can't back up my statement" reply as anything to do with my[/i] intelligence.
    :)

    TrueJedi,
    >>>>If I have to explain why all of those issues are male oriented...

    You're stating that they are "traditionally male roles" as if it was fact, not opinion, but flat out refusing to say why you think this is the case.

    Your arguments about "traditionally male roles" simply don't have anything to do with the women in Star Wars.
  22. Jomero Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 1999
    star 3
    Is everyone here serious who says they don't like women in "male roles" in Star Wars?!?

    Ok. Whatever dudes.

    Out of peronal curiosity, how many of those here who don't like that idea are in a relationship with a girl (computer chat relationships notwithstanding)?

    -Jomero
  23. Star-Queen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2001
    star 1
    The only persons who should matter with this issue is women. It's their portrayal.
  24. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Is everyone here serious who says they don't like women in "male roles" in Star Wars?!?

    I don't think I'd like it if there actually were any...

    To take the most obvious example, I don't think Qui Gon's character would have worked as a woman, because then he wouldn't have been a father-figure (albeit a temporary one) to Anakin.

    >>>>The only persons who should matter with this issue is women. It's their portrayal

    Not at all. Men and women form a symbiant circle- what happens to one affects the other- you must see that?
    :p

    >>>>Out of peronal curiosity, how many of those here who don't like that idea are in a relationship with a girl

    Out of personal curiosity, how many honest answers do you expect to that question?
  25. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Out of personal curiosity, how many honest answers do you expect to that question?

    LOL!! [face_laugh]
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