Feminization of TPM & SW

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TrueJedi, Nov 5, 2001.

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  1. waheennay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2000
    star 4
    Geez, it's not like Star Wars has become THE MISTS OF AVALON or something. I'm glad there are Jedi that are women and that there are female pilots. It would be really boring if all the good parts were only guys.
  2. TadjiStation Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2001
    star 4
    I think it's pretty cool to see women in tough roles (roles typically reserved for the male). It certainly adds a little spice and variety to the same ole' action flick.

    Did any of you see "The Matrix"? That's a good example of a woman looking extremely good while kicking serious a**!!

    How about "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon?" The best fight scenes were those that involved women.

    I usually try to post things that are well thought out and to the point, but given the fact that it's Friday night (and I'm a bit fried after a long week) the wording sounds a bit more primitive (but to the point, nonetheless!) ;)

    Best,

    Tadji

  3. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    I normally like strong female characters, but I didn't like Trinity in The Matrix for some reason. Maybe it's because the first thing we see her do is go on a kill crazy rampage :)
  4. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, the lobby scene in Matrix reminds me of the classic bit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the brave but psychotic Sir Lancelot kills everyone in his way just to rescue the Princess (who's actually a Prince).
    He stabs one guard without warning and the other guy goes "Hey."
    :D
  5. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    She didn't go on a kill crazy rampage until the end. She was mostly running in the beginning. I didn't really believe the whole romantic sub-plot.

    I thought the movie was cool, though.

  6. abobbs Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 1999
    star 1
    I don't have time to read this entire thread, but I wanted to comment on the mention of Amazons.

    TrueJedi, in original topic:
    "In classical mythology, there is something lacking in the warrior woman. (The Amazons of Greek mythology, for example, inexplicably cut off one breast, mutilating themselves over a shame of their sex. I am still waiting to see Xena do this...)"

    Um... not quite. The Amazon Warriors in Greek Mythology burned off their right breasts for a practical reason: they were archers, and they didn't want their breasts to get in the way. Stand up right now and act as if you are drawing a bow (and are right-handed) to understand why.
  7. Skara Brae Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 1
    I think many of the archaeological opinions in this thread that are being presented as fact are highly suspect. Archaeology has run into many problems with feminist academics, and the whole fertile crescent issue is complex and contoversial. I don't think it is possible to say as a FACT what women did in those societies.

    As for Star Wars, it's meant to be an epic saga, however new the setting. Whatever men and women are capable of in real life should be largely irrelevant in Star Wars. The films should not be holding up a mirror to society, or trying to impose feminist views in order to influence society.

    Star Wars appeals to people because it deals in archetypes that are common to all societies. The main male heroic character is central, and the women are secondary and stand in relation to him; mother, lover, daughter, etc.

    There may be warrior type women in myth; in Irish legend Fionn Macumhail was trained by a women, but she was the teacher, he was the heroic warrior and leader of men.

    I don't personally want to see women fighter pilots, or women Jedi fighting, although I don't mind women Jedi healers or teachers. I always thought Star Wars appealed to women more through putting feminine qualities into the male characters(particularly Luke and Obi-Wan), not by having women play masculine roles. As children me and my sister were Han and Luke, not Leia and Mon Mothma.

  8. Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2000
    star 4
    I would like to make a historical correction: The "Amazons" the Greeks referred to were probably Scythians, a nomadic Central Asian tribe, where the women were a mounted archery force. That is also the reason for the Greeks' erroneous belief that they cut off their right breast, only it was not because they were ashamed of their sex (that was a Victorian misconception of the Greek texts), it was because, as archers, the Greeks thought the breast would get in the way. In reality, they probably wore full tunic tops, and bound their breasts down. The latter practice also probably had nothing to do with being ashamed of their sex, and a lot to do with comfort --modern sports bras do the same thing: minimize jiggle for comfort, convenience, and protection.

    I thought Amidala was a fairly strong character, as were her Handmaidens. Feminine, intelligent, preferring to pursue peaceful means to end the problem, but strong enough to be ready to fight when they had to.

    I object more to authors and filmmakers who think that in order to make a woman seem "strong", they turn her into a copy of a man: kicking butt and mouthing off. It is possible to be tough, strong, and still feminine. And big "coconuts" don't equal feminine.

    I don't really have a problem with the concept of female Jedi. Jedi are, after all, supposed to be diplomats and mediators, solving the problems of the galaxy through negotiation, while resorting to arms only as a last resort (George said this, not me). Those are FEMININE strengths. Perhaps the Jedi should be all-female? Unless you're going to start getting all Freudian about lightsabers... :p
  9. Ransom Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 3
    TrueJedi said in another thread (about LOTR):

    Beware the PC'ing of our beloved classics. It's just another method of castrating men at a young age. It's an attempt by members of radical lesbian feminist groups, like the National Organization of Women, to destroy the masculinity of men. They are mentally raping the male youth of the Western world and it must be exposed and stopped.

    I think he was serious. :eek:

    I didn't know that Lucas was a radical lesbian feminist, so that was news to me. :p

  10. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    I wonder how many of the posters in here vote? right or left, it relates to the topic, being to the left is much more likely to support women taking men's roles, while the right would support traditional roles for both sexes, I wonder if that stays true to this thread?
  11. MAROOTHDROOL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 1
    grizham1,

    Being moderate I would hope both progressive and traditional elements of gender roles could be portrayed in the SW universe.

    By the way I hope, to be fair, there is a female Sith.

    Preferably a wanton temptress bada$$. [face_blush]
  12. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    I wouldn't count on any female Sith lords. There's always EU.

    I think a lot of posters in this thread are insecure about their lightsabres.
  13. Dark_Lady_Valeris Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 1
  14. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    Actually, aside from the joking, what PB says does have a lot of truth. For several thousand years male and female roles were clearly defined and everyone knew who they were in society and what they were expected to do. Only very recently have female roles changed and the distinction between male and female expectations has blurred. For women, this is a liberating experience. For men, this is extrememly troubling because while society has allowed women all this freedom to choose, men are essentially holding the same roles as they were five thousand years ago. Many men feel insecure in their place in society, afraid even that they'll become obsolete.

    The natural assumption held by TJ and others is that some radical lesbian feminist movement is seeking to undermine the male gender and create a liberal communist regime that will brainwash the youth of society into holding their views.

    This thread is actually quite amusing, especially TJ's rants. But seriously, be a MAN and grow up. Men don't whine about portrayal of gender roles in ficitonal films.

    If you seriously think GL has been undermined by the "feminazi" agenda, don't watch Star Wars! Go dig up tapes of "Father Knows Best," you'll enjoy them.
  15. Dionysus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 1
    SkaraBrae,

    I think many of the archaeological opinions in this thread that are being presented as fact are highly suspect. Archaeology has run into many problems with feminist academics, and the whole fertile crescent issue is complex and contoversial. I don't think it is possible to say as a FACT what women did in those societies.

    I never intended to present the archaelogical explanations in question as "fact", but merely as the most credible
    accounts available. Of course it's impossible to know the events of the past with absolute certainty. However, I see nothing to suggest that the view that women invented and controlled early horticultural industries is "highly suspect" - it's actually a rather mainstream and well-represented account. Perhaps you could further explain what makes these theories suspect?

    Also, how exactly has "Archaeology run into many problems with feminist academics"? Surely an academic can be a feminist and still be honest and credible. In fact, if I were to go out on a limb, I would venture that the majority of American and European academics - both men and women - are feminists. Do you mean to suggest that feminist viewpoints necessarily preclude academic honesty and intellectual integrity?
  16. Skara Brae Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 1
    Dionysus, I didn't at any point mean to criticise you personally. My problem with the discussion of archaeology is that most people on this board know very little about it, and so if archaeological evidence is brought up to support an opinion about a Star Wars film, there is very little the average Star Wars fan can do to dispute that opinion.

    If you want to talk about feminism in archaeology, email me, but I don't think that the place for discussing it further is on these boards.

    Sorry if I have been in any way impolite.
  17. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    I object more to authors and filmmakers who think that in order to make a woman seem "strong", they turn her into a copy of a man: kicking butt and mouthing off. It is possible to be tough, strong, and still feminine.

    I second that motion.


    And big "coconuts" don't equal feminine.

    (Stryphe opens mouth to speak, then walks off without a word, avoiding a banning).



  18. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
  19. Dionysus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 1
    SkaraBrae,

    Don't worry, I didn't think you were being impolite at all. I was just wondering what you were getting at. But you're right, it doesn't have much to do with Star Wars, so this really isn't the right forum. Oh well.

    See you around. ;)
  20. PhantomEditor Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    It?s amazing that such a thread written from a clearly bigoted standpoint is allowed to thrive. But then again seeing that this TFN, it?s no surprise.

    Anyway, getting down to the nonsense spewed in the original post by TrueJedi. First of all, this ?article? you cite is fundamentally flawed when it describes star wars as a serial comic (which had many female lead villains and female ?warriors?) and in the next sentence talks about Jungian and Campbellesque archetypes. But don?t worry, I hear SW fans on here contradict themselves like that all the time.

    Second when have you ever heard GL say he was concerned with feminism in the least bit, or that had he even heard ?complaints? from the N.O.W. or any other women?s group?? This is such a lame, ignorant assumption. PPOSTFU. And mind you, GL is the same guy who said, ?I don?t do evil chicks,? does not exactly sound like a progressive does it?

    The reason the number of women and people of color had roles in the post ANH films is because there were more who were actually given a chance. Are you from America? If so, your history knowledge is nil.
    There is no point in discussing masculine and feminine roles, because you are entrenched in your sexist views (which TFN seems to endorse). But I will say that the fact that this is a fantasy story makes your argument all the more pointless. Humans are the minority in the SW universe. Or if a female Calamarian was leading the strike with Ackbar? No. Why? Because this is not about Star Wars at all.

    Any article on Star Wars which mentions the NAACP and the N.O.W. is clearly pushing forward the White Male, Conservative racist, sexist agenda. Is Princess Leia the real reason more women are working now? Come on, it?s not the fact that women are allowed go to school now, are actually hired now and that half of white American kids are raised in single parent homes? Not even a SW geek of your magnitude would really believe that Leia is the reason. You are just using SW as a vehicle to get political, and it?s a lame attempt. Why? Because your comments and the article have NO EVIDENCE. What SW woman character ruined a film for you? Or worsened it? YOU HAVE NO EXAMPLES. The only thing your ?author? cites is Lando in ROTJ, ignoring Lando?s crucial role in ESB in betraying the Rebels and allowing Han?s capture. Not to mention giving Vader and the Dark Side a chance to lure Luke before he finished his training.

    This is a pathetic, vapid thread. You?re a sexist and most likely a racist. The only good thing in this thread is that you conclude that GL does not think like you do. Cool.

    cbjedi edit: Spoiler removed.
  21. Jenkwombat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2001
    star 3


    "...'allowed' to thrive" ???


    So people can only talk about things that make *you* comfortable? Doesn't sound like much of a "Discussion Forum/Thread" to me.

    It seems to me that many of the topics that aren't "Politically Correct" get *removed* anyway, which would indicate, if anything, hyper-sensitivity on some people's part....


  22. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    There's a new Sheriff in town, boys, and he's good. Real good. :)

    Thanks, cbjedi. :)
  23. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    I would never go as far as phantom editor did, but he does have a point that feminaixm was probably the farthest thing on GL's mind. Why is it so hard to believe that GL was just trying to be cool or make his story more fantisifical?

    Now i am wondering what this big bad spoiler is....CBJedi, can you direct me to a spesific thread where i can find this spoiler (i probably already know it, just dont know i know it...)
  24. Darth23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 1999
    star 4
    "The purpose of this thread is to discuss feminization and Star Wars. While some of TJ's ideas may be straight out of 1955, I don't think he's spreading bigoted ideas. "



    Because, as we all know, bigotry didn't exist and wasn't accepted as common ordinary behavior in 1955.

    Right? ;)

    TJ has COMPLETELY failed to show how showing a female character as strong accomplishes the goal of "castrating" (his words) males. He's also failed to show how George Lucas is beimg manipulated by the 'evil pc gestapo femi-nazis' or whatever he would call them.

    He also repeatedly ignored my assertion that the so called 'article' he posted at the beginning of this thread was in actuality nothing more than a message posted by some anonymous person on the sci-fi message board.


    Discussion? I think not. Not unless repeating the phrases 'did you even read what I wrote?' and 'you don't understand my point' count as informend and engaged verbal discourse.



  25. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Still waiting for a valid example of a female character in a male role in Star Wars though...
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