Discussion Filming Techniques and Technologies for the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Momotaros, Aug 22, 2013.

  1. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    It's frankly BAFFLING to me that someone can think a CGI creation is more really there than a physical puppet that, objectively speaking, WAS really there. And I actually didn't mind CG Yoda as much as most. Still prefer the practical though.
    TKT, Grand_Moff_Jawa and vinsanity like this.
  2. Darth PJ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 5
    Please don't be deliberately obtuse. It's quite obvious that he means the CGI version has more animation... thus they could get more 'performance' out of the character... ergo the illusion that it was a living, breathing creature is more pronounced.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  3. vinsanity Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 4
    Tennis ball vs puppet, hmm... Also a character that one minute is frail and walking with a stick the other minute looks like a mosquito that drink too much red bull, versus a frail but still wise character although limited physically but yet still powerful in his mind, whose more believable...
    Last edited by vinsanity, Sep 7, 2013
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  4. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 8
    So, we are now blurring the line between our like/dislike of the story elements used with the puppet/cgi character as a means of debating the merits of cgi or puppet. Glad our motives are coming into focus.
    -Jedi Joe- likes this.
  5. vinsanity Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 4
    It's all connected
  6. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Perhaps we SHOULD bring it into the discussion: remember that one of my statements here was that the real concern is not with the technology in its own right, but with how it's used. One can indeed make a legitimate case that to have a character, previously established as being rather slow and sedentary, suddenly jump into frenzied acrobatics and swordplay, and essentially just morph into Speedy Gonzalez, just because the technology now allowed ILM to do so and for no other reason, definitely counts as such a misuse of such technology. A major aspect of the character was compromised simply because there was something Lucas really wanted to do, whether it fit with the character or not. And yet again, it was a case of suddenly overanimating the crap out of a character whose best moments are when he is UNDER-played. By ROTS, I'll happily admit, they had begun to get the hang of dialing it back, particularly with him, but by then the damage of AOTC was done. Maybe - MAYBE - the same technology could be used by better animators to better effect; but again, we've been bitten once already. Why should we jump up and down in excitement over the possibility of getting more of the same? Why should anyone EXPECT us to when we have a perfectly legitimate reason NOT to?
    Darth_Pevra and vinsanity like this.
  7. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
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    star 8
    If the conversation evolves in that direction, it would make perfect sense. But, let's make sure that we commit to a direction and avoid any accidental "semantics" debates.
  8. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Yoda was once younger and more physically active.

    Anyway, as I said before... "this bickering is pointless". This thread was already retitled once to give it a more feasible ongoing purpose (from the "35mm film news" title to now). Don't ruin the thread with endless PT bashing wrapped up in the guise of filming techniques discussion.


    Edit: And what ACOD said too. ;)
    Last edited by eht13, Sep 7, 2013
  9. Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 4
    Really?

    One that has total freedom of movement, full motion including everything a living being has from every minute facial expression to the clothes to sweating etc as which you can do all you want to with like an actor.

    The puppet Yoda was there but it's not like they just pull him out shot in a few days and it was all great. They had to spends months and use all kinds of trickery to just pull a relative onscreen time of a few minutes for decent interaction with one person. With all the restrictions of movement and motion that come with it.

    Opposed to going on set and actually getting it done for the actor in a day or two or whatever and then moving on.

    To paraphrase what GL said he finds it baffling that people think that "fake" puppets would be preferred to "fake" CGI when people know that both are fake but you can get so much more out of the fake CGI puppet that can do all the above.

    I love puppet Yoda in ESB. It was a great achievement at the time but you can't go back to that. It's like thinking that stop motion is the best thing ever and no CGI can ever better it. That is baffling.
    Andy Wylde and -Jedi Joe- like this.
  10. vinsanity Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah, 500 years ago, not 20 (it's like saying a guy in his 90's, he could still do backflips and carthwheels when he was 88) but getting back on topic

    It won't go back because Yoda is already dead in EP VII. Puppets will probably not be used, or probably will on small creatures, but i don't want to go "all CGI" with it, PJ did that on the Hobbit, and people didn't like it, specially with the CGI Goblins (and i didn't mind Azog).

    For me cgi as support for animatronics and man in suit and practical effect is great and the way to go but ditching all of it and doing purely or mostly the effects and creatures in cgi in movies is not good
  11. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I think they should film the whole trilogy with balsa wood.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  12. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Yogurt from Spaceballs looks more real than either a hand puppet or a CG model. Take note, Disney, for the next round of saga updates.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Puppetry evolved too.

    If you don't believe me, watch either Farscape or Pan's Labyrinth.
    Immortiss and Chewgumma like this.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Alien worlds are not considered credible? I thought that was the point of alien worlds, which is to be different from the world we know.

    Doesn't matter, as neither are real. What matters is if the actors can interact or not.

    So Yoda cannot use the Force to fight, but every other Jedi and Sith can? Sorry, I don't buy that one. The Jedi and Sith use the Force to jump, flip and run in ways that normal people cannot do.

    There's a difference. Yoda used the Force in the PT to fight, whereas in the OT, he only uses it to train Luke and even then, he doesn't do combat techniques. Hence losing his Lightsaber in the Senate rotunda and thus preventing Yoda from using it to train Luke.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Sep 7, 2013
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  15. vinsanity Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 4
    Excellent examples.

    Wrong, OT Yoda was real, the puppet as it going to be shown on movie was there on location and with Frank Oz talking in the background and the actors interact better, the same way with actors in mo-cap suits or with prosthestics, actors work better like that, it's a fact.


    As he says in ESB, a Jedi uses the force to defend, never for attack, It enhances, but at point of having the physicality of 20 again? Sorry, i don't buy that one. The force is not Asterix's magical potion. How ridiculous would have been seeing Darth Vader and old Obi-Wan doing carthwheels and backflips (We saw Palpatine and it looked so ridiculous)
    And then Yoda dies of old age 20 years later...
    Maybe he did off-screen, maybe he created a new lightsaber when he was on exile.
  16. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Thanks. For some reason people think puppetry didn't evolve since the OT. It makes me sad because there were some incredible advancements.

    What I love about Pan's labyrinth especially is how cleverly puppetry and CGI were used together.
  17. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. CGI Yoda was too fluid and unrealistic, in my opinion. He looked flat and 2 dimensional. His eyes looked fake. I hated the puppet in TPM though, that thing was atrocious. I swear if GL goes back to TESB and makes Yoda CGI I will boycott all things Star Wars for the rest of my life.
    vinsanity likes this.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The Yaddle puppet was used in AOTC and ROTS, for the actors to interact with and there was someone in both films, feeding the lines to the actors. The only time the puppet wasn't used was for the fight scenes and the scene in AOTC where Yoda talks with Obi-wan and Mace, about Anakin.

    Dooku initiates the conflict with Yoda. He throws objects at Yoda. He uses the lighting. And he's the first to draw his weapon. Yoda never said that the Jedi could not fight. Just that they should not use the Force for ill intent, which is what the Sith do. Otherwise, no Jedi would be using Lightsabers at all. As to Vader and Obi-wan in ANH, if Lucas had the means, you can bet he would have had them fight that way in 76. Hell, I even argued years back that it would be cool to see stunt doubles in costume fighting, while intercut with the original footage. It's well established in the OT, that the Force when used in battle, strengthens the stamina of the Jedi and Sith. In TESB, Luke is sweating and takes a beating because he's not as strong with the Force as he should be. By the time he fights Vader again, a year later in ROTJ, Luke doesn't take a beating and he's barely sweating.

    Yeah, so?


    Possible, but unlikely.
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  19. vinsanity Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 4
    Also i would like to point the Troll Market scene in Hellboy 2

    Chewgumma likes this.
  20. Darth PJ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 5
    Whilst I certainly don't have a problem with Hellboy, I don't think it looks as real or has the scale of the Prequels.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  21. vinsanity Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 4
    It looks pretty real and convincing to me
    Darth_Pevra and Grand_Moff_Jawa like this.
  22. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5

    [face_hypnotized] lolwut?
  23. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 8
    I find it confusing when people don't have the exact same opinions as me, as well.
    EviL_eLF, eht13 and SuperPersch like this.
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    This gives me a real Star Wars vibe. I gotta watch it.
  25. Chewgumma Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7
    I just wanted to quickly point out that not all the goblins in The Hobbit were CG. Many of the stunt actors had to wear this thing.

    [IMG]

    Others wore just the body suit and had motion tracking dots on their faces so that the above torture device didn't cause any serious injury during stunt work. On top of that I think all the orcs in the movie were practical, with the exception of Azog.

    As someone who believes that the prequels are visually horrendous I think there's a general misconception that practical effects are automatically better than CGI. The unfortunate truth is they can look incredibly fake under the wrong lighting or with bad cinematography. As evidenced by The Hobbit, which while having a lot of location shooting and practical effects still manged to look like a cartoon.
    DARTH_BELO likes this.