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TFA Filming Techniques and Technologies for the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Momotaros, Aug 22, 2013.

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  1. Heero_Yuy

    Heero_Yuy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's frankly BAFFLING to me that someone can think a CGI creation is more really there than a physical puppet that, objectively speaking, WAS really there. And I actually didn't mind CG Yoda as much as most. Still prefer the practical though.
     
    TKT, Grand_Moff_Jawa and vinsanity like this.
  2. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Please don't be deliberately obtuse. It's quite obvious that he means the CGI version has more animation... thus they could get more 'performance' out of the character... ergo the illusion that it was a living, breathing creature is more pronounced.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  3. vinsanity

    vinsanity Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Tennis ball vs puppet, hmm... Also a character that one minute is frail and walking with a stick the other minute looks like a mosquito that drink too much red bull, versus a frail but still wise character although limited physically but yet still powerful in his mind, whose more believable...
     
    Immortiss and Darth_Pevra like this.
  4. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Malleus Maleficarum star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    So, we are now blurring the line between our like/dislike of the story elements used with the puppet/cgi character as a means of debating the merits of cgi or puppet. Glad our motives are coming into focus.
     
    -Jedi Joe- likes this.
  5. vinsanity

    vinsanity Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2013
    It's all connected
     
  6. Pfluegermeister

    Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2003
    Perhaps we SHOULD bring it into the discussion: remember that one of my statements here was that the real concern is not with the technology in its own right, but with how it's used. One can indeed make a legitimate case that to have a character, previously established as being rather slow and sedentary, suddenly jump into frenzied acrobatics and swordplay, and essentially just morph into Speedy Gonzalez, just because the technology now allowed ILM to do so and for no other reason, definitely counts as such a misuse of such technology. A major aspect of the character was compromised simply because there was something Lucas really wanted to do, whether it fit with the character or not. And yet again, it was a case of suddenly overanimating the crap out of a character whose best moments are when he is UNDER-played. By ROTS, I'll happily admit, they had begun to get the hang of dialing it back, particularly with him, but by then the damage of AOTC was done. Maybe - MAYBE - the same technology could be used by better animators to better effect; but again, we've been bitten once already. Why should we jump up and down in excitement over the possibility of getting more of the same? Why should anyone EXPECT us to when we have a perfectly legitimate reason NOT to?
     
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  7. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Malleus Maleficarum star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    If the conversation evolves in that direction, it would make perfect sense. But, let's make sure that we commit to a direction and avoid any accidental "semantics" debates.
     
  8. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Yoda was once younger and more physically active.

    Anyway, as I said before... "this bickering is pointless". This thread was already retitled once to give it a more feasible ongoing purpose (from the "35mm film news" title to now). Don't ruin the thread with endless PT bashing wrapped up in the guise of filming techniques discussion.


    Edit: And what ACOD said too. ;)
     
  9. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Really?

    One that has total freedom of movement, full motion including everything a living being has from every minute facial expression to the clothes to sweating etc as which you can do all you want to with like an actor.

    The puppet Yoda was there but it's not like they just pull him out shot in a few days and it was all great. They had to spends months and use all kinds of trickery to just pull a relative onscreen time of a few minutes for decent interaction with one person. With all the restrictions of movement and motion that come with it.

    Opposed to going on set and actually getting it done for the actor in a day or two or whatever and then moving on.

    To paraphrase what GL said he finds it baffling that people think that "fake" puppets would be preferred to "fake" CGI when people know that both are fake but you can get so much more out of the fake CGI puppet that can do all the above.

    I love puppet Yoda in ESB. It was a great achievement at the time but you can't go back to that. It's like thinking that stop motion is the best thing ever and no CGI can ever better it. That is baffling.
     
    Andy Wylde and -Jedi Joe- like this.
  10. vinsanity

    vinsanity Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Yeah, 500 years ago, not 20 (it's like saying a guy in his 90's, he could still do backflips and carthwheels when he was 88) but getting back on topic

    It won't go back because Yoda is already dead in EP VII. Puppets will probably not be used, or probably will on small creatures, but i don't want to go "all CGI" with it, PJ did that on the Hobbit, and people didn't like it, specially with the CGI Goblins (and i didn't mind Azog).

    For me cgi as support for animatronics and man in suit and practical effect is great and the way to go but ditching all of it and doing purely or mostly the effects and creatures in cgi in movies is not good
     
  11. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    I think they should film the whole trilogy with balsa wood.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  12. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Yogurt from Spaceballs looks more real than either a hand puppet or a CG model. Take note, Disney, for the next round of saga updates.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  13. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Puppetry evolved too.

    If you don't believe me, watch either Farscape or Pan's Labyrinth.
     
    Immortiss and Chewgumma like this.
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Alien worlds are not considered credible? I thought that was the point of alien worlds, which is to be different from the world we know.

    Doesn't matter, as neither are real. What matters is if the actors can interact or not.

    So Yoda cannot use the Force to fight, but every other Jedi and Sith can? Sorry, I don't buy that one. The Jedi and Sith use the Force to jump, flip and run in ways that normal people cannot do.

    There's a difference. Yoda used the Force in the PT to fight, whereas in the OT, he only uses it to train Luke and even then, he doesn't do combat techniques. Hence losing his Lightsaber in the Senate rotunda and thus preventing Yoda from using it to train Luke.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  15. vinsanity

    vinsanity Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Excellent examples.

    Wrong, OT Yoda was real, the puppet as it going to be shown on movie was there on location and with Frank Oz talking in the background and the actors interact better, the same way with actors in mo-cap suits or with prosthestics, actors work better like that, it's a fact.


    As he says in ESB, a Jedi uses the force to defend, never for attack, It enhances, but at point of having the physicality of 20 again? Sorry, i don't buy that one. The force is not Asterix's magical potion. How ridiculous would have been seeing Darth Vader and old Obi-Wan doing carthwheels and backflips (We saw Palpatine and it looked so ridiculous)
    And then Yoda dies of old age 20 years later...
    Maybe he did off-screen, maybe he created a new lightsaber when he was on exile.
     
  16. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Thanks. For some reason people think puppetry didn't evolve since the OT. It makes me sad because there were some incredible advancements.

    What I love about Pan's labyrinth especially is how cleverly puppetry and CGI were used together.
     
  17. Grand_Moff_Jawa

    Grand_Moff_Jawa Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 31, 2001
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. CGI Yoda was too fluid and unrealistic, in my opinion. He looked flat and 2 dimensional. His eyes looked fake. I hated the puppet in TPM though, that thing was atrocious. I swear if GL goes back to TESB and makes Yoda CGI I will boycott all things Star Wars for the rest of my life.
     
    vinsanity likes this.
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Yaddle puppet was used in AOTC and ROTS, for the actors to interact with and there was someone in both films, feeding the lines to the actors. The only time the puppet wasn't used was for the fight scenes and the scene in AOTC where Yoda talks with Obi-wan and Mace, about Anakin.

    Dooku initiates the conflict with Yoda. He throws objects at Yoda. He uses the lighting. And he's the first to draw his weapon. Yoda never said that the Jedi could not fight. Just that they should not use the Force for ill intent, which is what the Sith do. Otherwise, no Jedi would be using Lightsabers at all. As to Vader and Obi-wan in ANH, if Lucas had the means, you can bet he would have had them fight that way in 76. Hell, I even argued years back that it would be cool to see stunt doubles in costume fighting, while intercut with the original footage. It's well established in the OT, that the Force when used in battle, strengthens the stamina of the Jedi and Sith. In TESB, Luke is sweating and takes a beating because he's not as strong with the Force as he should be. By the time he fights Vader again, a year later in ROTJ, Luke doesn't take a beating and he's barely sweating.

    Yeah, so?


    Possible, but unlikely.
     
    Andy Wylde and ezekiel22x like this.
  19. vinsanity

    vinsanity Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Also i would like to point the Troll Market scene in Hellboy 2

     
    Chewgumma likes this.
  20. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Whilst I certainly don't have a problem with Hellboy, I don't think it looks as real or has the scale of the Prequels.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  21. vinsanity

    vinsanity Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2013
    It looks pretty real and convincing to me
     
    Darth_Pevra and Grand_Moff_Jawa like this.
  22. Grand_Moff_Jawa

    Grand_Moff_Jawa Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 31, 2001

    [face_hypnotized] lolwut?
     
  23. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Malleus Maleficarum star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    I find it confusing when people don't have the exact same opinions as me, as well.
     
    EviL_eLF, eht13 and SuperPersch like this.
  24. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    This gives me a real Star Wars vibe. I gotta watch it.
     
  25. Chewgumma

    Chewgumma Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2009
    I just wanted to quickly point out that not all the goblins in The Hobbit were CG. Many of the stunt actors had to wear this thing.

    [​IMG]

    Others wore just the body suit and had motion tracking dots on their faces so that the above torture device didn't cause any serious injury during stunt work. On top of that I think all the orcs in the movie were practical, with the exception of Azog.

    As someone who believes that the prequels are visually horrendous I think there's a general misconception that practical effects are automatically better than CGI. The unfortunate truth is they can look incredibly fake under the wrong lighting or with bad cinematography. As evidenced by The Hobbit, which while having a lot of location shooting and practical effects still manged to look like a cartoon.
     
    DARTH_BELO likes this.
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