Discussion Filming Techniques and Technologies for the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Momotaros, Aug 22, 2013.

  1. DARTH_BELO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    I hope that they don't resort to solely either CG OR puppets, but rather a blend of both-perhaps actual models, figures, etc. but have facial expressions and whatnot animated with CG. OR a photo-realistic composition, like the tiger in Life of Pi. (I know that it was CG the whole time, but at times I really could not tell!) The new CG Yoda that shows up in the TPM blu-ray looks incredible, IMO and at times it's difficult to tell that it's CG.

    Actually, I am a big fan of motion capture! And even that form of animation has made leaps and bounds in quality over the last few years. Don't believe me? Watch Gollum in The Two Towers (2002), then watch the goblins in The Hobbit (2012, 10 years later). Hell, even the motion capture in Avatar wasn't as good as The Hobbit. And that was only 4 years ago!

    My point is, that when they begin working on Episode VII-and you KNOW they will use motion capture at some point-that it will look incredibly realistic.
  2. DARTH_BELO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    Agreed-there are certain goblins that are clearly makeup and costumes. Even so, I will say even the CG goblins (which look like they were actually motion capture) look quite realistic, IMO.

    If you ever get to a point where you can't tell for sure what method is used, then I'd say the filmmakers did their job making the characters believable...
    Last edited by DARTH_BELO, Sep 7, 2013
  3. Chewgumma Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2009
    star 7

    I'm of the belief that if your effects fall within the Uncanny Valley then, practical or digital, you've failed to sell the visuals you are putting to the screen. Even if you can't tell the two different arts apart.

    Now I'm someone who quite enjoyed the Hobbit. I'm going to be seeing Desolation of Smaug on day 1. But visually I wasn't very impressed. I thought The Lord of Rings had a much more believable aesthetic. It's just a fact that a lot of the effects in the new movies are practical, so any shortcomings aren't the fault of just the CGI artists.
    Last edited by Chewgumma, Sep 7, 2013
  4. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I know it's funny that. I always find there's a link between dogmatic personalities and a vocal negativity.


    I think the last 2 Star Trek movies had a very good blend of special/visual effects and I think JJ's use of natural light helps give an air of 'reality' too... So I think Ep VII will have the most seamless blend of effects to date.

    That said, I believe Lucas to be a great bastion of imagination when it comes to character, technology and locale design... and even though years apart, I think there's infinitely more artistic/creative imagination in the prequels (and OT) than there is in JJ's movies (or other contemporary counterparts)... I'm reminded of Otoh Gunga, Theed, Coruscant, Utopau, the N-1 Naboo Royal Starfighter, Destroyer Droids, Darth Maul etc. My concern is that although Ep VII will undoubtedly have great effects... and will probably look more 'real' (something that some people seem to get too hung up on IMHO), that it will all look a bit bland and unimaginative when compared to what went before in Star Wars... and something may be lost.
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Sep 8, 2013
  5. Loupgarou Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2010
    star 3
    You're giving Lucas too much credit in the design department. Doug Chiang's concept art of TPM is very rooted in his personal style which favors sleek, slightly retro designs and bizarre creatures, and much of the locales and vehicle/droid design barely deviate at all from his original vision. Lucas tells a guy 'draw me a sith, one that looks more like a fighter than a talker' and they draw Maul (well, a bunch of different designs and Maul gets picked). And then someone takes that sketch and finds a way to build it/make a costume of it/model it in CG.I'm not trying to act like Lucas isn't a core element of the last two Star Wars trilogies or that his job is easy, i'm trying to show how Star Wars is the sum of the creative work of a LOT of people. Really, the way Lucas pulls so much from that original art is commendable.

    As someone in a different thread mentioned, Super 8 is pretty spot on in it's attempt to look like a Spielberg movie (it's got a lot of flaws, some coming from that worship, but the aesthetic was pulled off as planned). Perhaps Abrams will be equally adept in taking inspiration from Lucas and will at least understand the difference between that and his Star Trek. The slight realism of Trek befits a story that takes place in our future. It's not bad that it goes that direction. I think Abrams likely knows Star Wars is not our galaxy, and has spiritual laser battles. Maybe he'll allow the many people working on Star Wars some real input, take heavily from concept art, and make something great.
    Dra---, darthfettus2015 and vinsanity like this.
  6. vinsanity Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    Agreed, maybe it was because it was shot on anamorphic format and they saturated the look of those films and probably helped the various effects shots be more blended with each other, where in the Hobbit everything is too colorful, probably that was intended because the Hobbit is a more a light story than the Lord of Rings more darker and grim.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  7. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I don't think I'm giving Lucas too much credit at all. If it was simply about a blank cheque book then I'd ask the question why don't other movies, of a similar genre, have the incredibly powerful iconography and design that Star Wars has (both PT and OT)? It's not a coincidence. It takes quite a bit of talent to set up teams, departments and give creative people the freedom/autonomy to achieve a vision. For those familiar with English football/soccer, it would be like saying "you give Sir Alex Ferguson too much credit for managing the most succesfull team in Premiership football history".
  8. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Chiang and McCaig both played a big role in the design aesthetic of the PT, along with Lucas.

    All three are involved in the ST.
  9. TtheForceHurts Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 3
    You can see that in the making off's from EPI.
    The problem there was that CL always went over the top with his decisions. While the choosing of concepts on LOTR movies worked the same (PJ picking his favourites from a multitude of designs that should be explored further and certainly went over the top as well sometimes (size of the Witch kings Flail, Gothmogs tumors, Goblin King), what works in favor are the lorekeepers in the production. You can scrutinize nearly every prop at close distance and see fine details or actual lore inscripted/depicted in background bannaer/murals, the evolution you can see in armor over the ages and the funstionality of various items... This makes for a more believable world. The PT tried this with starfighters, clone/stormtroopers and droids but often very blatantly. I would love for some hardcore geek to look over the designs of the ST to make the diverse galaxy a bit more believeable.
    vinsanity likes this.
  10. darth_saruman12345 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2013
    i wonder if 48fps . is possible on 35mm cuz that would be cool
  11. darth_saruman12345 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2013
    oh and given the unfortunate peter mayhew news im calling it chewbwcca will be motion capture
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  12. vinsanity Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    I sure hope not.
  13. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    By the by... I finished re-watching TLOTR yesterday... The Return of the King looks great and the effects are pretty seamless.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  14. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    What 'unfortunate news'? Peter just had knee replacement surgery so he CAN hopefully walk unassisted again soon....
  15. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Even if Peter isn't sufficiently recovered to reprise his role, I'm sure they would either write him out or recast rather than use motion capture.
  16. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    It's possible, but would be insanely expensive, so no one would do that. If you want 48fps you shoot digital.
    I'm pretty sure JJ - who according to rumours wants to go back to more practical effects - would never make an iconic man-in-suit character such as Chewie digital.
  17. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I certainly wouldn't want to be around here if he did...
    TigerCraneFist likes this.
  18. The Hellhammer 7SA Forum Interrogator

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
    There is apsolutely no reason at all to make Chewbacca digital.
    It may sound like sacrilege to some, but even if Peter Mayhew is not up for the role, I'm pretty sure another tall actor could be found.
    Darth_Pevra and Pro Scoundrel like this.
  19. Graphic Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 2
    If this become true, so i hope they give him a small Role as an actuall Actor. Bartender in the Cantina.
    Pro Scoundrel likes this.
  20. Ganger Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 4
    Yeah that would show gratitude Star Wars style. We all know Kenny Baker wasn't "needed" for the prequels, still he was there and it was endearing to witness as a fan.

    Still, there are no excuses for a CGI Chewbacca, I would be terrible disappointed.

    They could use a new actor, have Peter Mayhew instruct him in the wookie ways, have that documented and make it part of the behind the scenes features on the bluray release in 2016. That would be tasteful and true to Star Wars.
    kubricklynch likes this.
  21. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I would love to see King Tarrful and some other harass Wookiees in VII.
    Immortiss likes this.
  22. David_Skywalker01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2006
    star 3
    I highly doubt that this group would go for a CG Chewie, if Uncle George was still in charge maybe.
  23. sons_of_anakin_tatooine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2005
    star 3

    that is why i say fans who tore him apart for the 2 trek films need to give him a chance. i prefer puppets and costumes over a guy in a mocap sute ( wich in alot of things did work marvel being one). despite all the lensflare jokes the man stuck with originality when it came to the costumes wich is a huge deal imo.

    theres things you cant just do with cgi and making certain star wars charachters cgi isnt one of them
  24. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Well, technically you can, but only under special circumstances:
    [IMG]

    But yeah, I absolutely agree with you.
  25. Nexumaster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2005
    star 4
    Why would Chewie be CGI if Lucas was in charge? Remember that a costume was used even in ROTS.
    Last edited by Nexumaster, Sep 17, 2013