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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Filming Techniques and Technologies for the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Momotaros, Aug 22, 2013.

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  1. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    JediKnightWax Let's ask Danny Wagner about Felucia. He might have a better picture of the process.
     
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  2. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Lucas has lots and lots and lots of money. If he really wanted to make the films of his dreams, money concerns wouldn't be an issue.
     
  3. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Stock footage? In SW?
     
  4. mratm23

    mratm23 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 13, 2014
    I really wish he'd try just one more time at directing something. Preferably not a Star Wars film, but just something else. He's only directed like, what, 2 other films non-Star Wars? THX and Graffiti.
     
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  5. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    Danny Wagner disagrees. From the official site's archive:

    Building Felucia

    After the animatic was complete, the model makers and other craftspeople from Industrial Light & Magic were then asked to undertake the real-life construction of Felucia's plant life. ILM Senior Model Maker Danny Wagner worked closely with a team to build the exquisite set. In addition to Wagner, the ILM crew members involved with the project included Richard Miller (sculptor), Louren Vogt and Gritsada Satjawatcharaphong (painters), and Michael Jobe (molder and caster).

    Wagner also constructed 3-D representative concept models of various other new environments for Episode III which included maquettes for the Wookiee Tree and the Command Center on Kashyyk, the Utapau sinkhole walls, grotto cave and landing platform, and the magnificent volcanoes on Mustafar.

    "Felucia was actually one of the first things I did for the film at ILM," Wagner says. "I was responsible for the ground terrain sculpt and the small vegetation and plants. I also worked as stage support shooting the final miniature. It took about a month to build the set miniature with the crew and about a week shooting it."

    As the model making team began to build the Felucia set, they used various ingredients from both nature and their art supply cabinets. "The dressing consists of a lot of green sphagnum moss, some finely-crushed walnut shells, different grains of sand, and ground foam," Wagner reveals. "We also used special clear crystal beads that were ideal for shiny organic matter to dress the ground."

    "To start things off I sculpted the ground terrain out of Y-2 clay, then sealed it with shellac and primed it," Wagner continues. "The small plants were sculpted out of Y-2 clay. I did a variety of them so ILM Visual Effects Supervisor John Knoll could pick which ones he liked. When the final choices were made, casting specialist Michael Jobe molded the parts along with the other plants. To give the various plants and flowers that special translucent glow, he used a clear urethane, WC-20, which was carefully cast in special platinum silicone mold that can only casts clear parts. Some of these molds were extremely complex. We had to make sure that the casting was clear so we could add another piece inside the plant to give it more of an inner growth look. The plant sculptures were then placed in an airtight vacuum chamber to remove any air bubbles. Some of the castings were also given a special clear urethane ink to give the plants an appearance of a soft membrane of colored tissue. Then painters and I used a combination of colors from a variety of paints such as FW inks, Tamiya clear colors, Dr. Martin watercolors and some pearl essence powders and inks. There were also a few more special craft paints we used for certain parts of the plants."
     
  6. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Good post Frag. It would be great to see if there are any BTS shots of this miniature. I wonder which shots it was used for?

    As for people not complaining about Hoth looking fake - on the whole it didn't. They used precisely the blend of locations, huge sets and miniatures and mattes that we're suggesting works well. The PT also did this in a lot of sequences. No one is saying Naboo looks fake, for example. We're saying that the balance swing too far towards digital though in certain sequences when in camera was still an option.

    What's interesting is the current crop of film-makers clearly feel the same way, and there are comments from actors in the last couple of pages to also back up the view that in camera where possible is preferable and beneficial.

    Not to mention the various quotes from PT actors complaining about the over abundance of digital FX (complaints you didn't see from the cast of LOTR for example which IMO stuck the correct balance even if the Hobbit films have swing too far towards digital again).

    Some people just prefer more of an in camera approach. That is all.

    Despite Qui's crusade to correct the infidels, it seems this is a pretty valid and common concern/ preference and not just the preserve of us bitter haters.
     
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  7. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    Felucia is only in the Order 66 sequence.

    There is at least one if not more set photos in a Samnz post in the Practical Effects thread.
     
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  8. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Thanks, Frag. Will check it out. I meant as in the big wide shot that opens the sequence vs the more intimate shots when Aayla is gunned down. Maybe it's all the miniature.
     
  9. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    All this discussion of silicone molds and uerethanes, Y-2 clays (for all love!), mosses, crushed walnut shells, a month to build and a week to shoot...

    Then there's that wicked Oz, Danny Wagner, behind a curtain pushing the CG button.

    Google is your friend, people. Some of this stuff is even archived.
     
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  10. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    LOL! That is funny. Relatively few shots were done in CG besides that I'm sure he has said the same thing about the skeleton puppet used for TPM since he didn't do that either. Would he rather have done the dangerous things like walking down the stairs in ROTS? Considering he had an accident on the set of Padme's apartment I'd guess not.

    I didn't notice at all the puppet "wasn't right" I've seen it time and time again where actors place a bit too much importance on their roles. That is natural enough. That is part of the reason why they become "stars" while all the people that help make them that way don't.

    That doesn't make sense. We are talking about an independent film-maker. Why is it so hard for people to accept that Lucas knows what he is doing?

    He does things in a certain way and has a methodology. They go through an entire process to determine what is the best and most effective way of doing what they need to do.

    He is bankrolling these movies out of his own pocket. Independent films that cost combined hundred of millions of dollars. Each prequel cost about 120M on average. That is incredible value for the dollar. Once again when you are Lucas all that matters is what is on the screen and he knows that every single image is fake just like the attack on the Death Star was all fake just like the battle of Hoth was all fake. Those weren't real rebel soldiers on the planet Hoth battling snow walkers with speeders defending a generator with an underground from which ships were escaping.
     
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  11. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Whenever people find something lacking, they will debate whether the person "knew what he/she was doing". A fact of life.

    I'm just saying that he would have had the dough to pay for real clone trooper armors if he wanted to. It's not like people were demanding that we get ten planets in a single Star Wars movie. If he was cutting costs then he was cutting them at the wrong places.
    I don't know why the expensive General Grievous was necessary and some clone trooper armor wasn't.
     
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  12. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    And your point is, Qui?

    You're arguing against a preference.
     
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  13. JediKnightWax

    JediKnightWax Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014

    The panning shots should've benefited from this.
     
  14. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    Benefited from what?
     
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  15. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Also, for all Danny Wagner's hard work, shoving an actress who has little to act against and a bunch of CG clones undoes a lot of that hard work.

    Also, no one is saying digital work isn't a stack of very hard work by immensely talented people. No one thinks it is a case of hitting a button so why don't we bin that straw man while we're at it.
     
  16. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    BUT I LIKE CGI
     
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  17. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    *throws handful of sphagnum moss at IATI*
     
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  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Well, to be fair, if motion capture work wasn't used in AOTC, then it will look wonky which it does. The droid factory was by far the most complex stunt ever done with the character in live action.


    Lucas has money, yes, but as he said in the Premiere magazine issue from 1999, he had to be very frugal with what he spent. Even coming out of his more impressive bank account from the late 90's, he wanted to make sure that TPM came in on budget and that he would not spend more than he felt was necessary. So he had a budget of $120 million or so, and come in five million under budget. He even said that if the film bombed, he wouldn't bother finishing the trilogy. Because of what happened on TESB, Lucas has made it a point to oversee the budget and make sure it never skyrockets again.

    I stand corrected.

    And he didn't want to. It wasn't about cost of building, but a desire to say, "Let's do this without resorting to building a suit".

    Oh, please. The fact is that Lucas and his team once again fooled people and you didn't know it. Just like a lot of people didn't catch on that the clones weren't wearing actual armor when AOTC came out.

    How?
     
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  19. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    Well, just my opinion, but that Felucia scene looks as synthetic/ digital as it gets (with the exception of Aayla). Her performance is way off to me (not her fault) and IMO it would have been easier performance-wise for her if there was at least a partial set constructed and hero suits for the clones in that scene (none of whom are doing anything that needs great mobility or vision). I think it's a really poor shot performance wise. I like the shot once you get the top-down shot, but Aayla aside it is pretty much the epitome of the video game look for me. The speeder bike scene that follows is similar for me. But again, it's just my preference. I know lots of people think that it looks beautiful and atmospheric and painterly. I'm just not a big fan of the aesthetic used, that's all.

    BTW, the whole mobility issue doesn't really apply to AOTC as the clones do nothing regular extras in costume couldn't have done. They basically march forward and shoot.

    That said, if the CG clones work for you, fantastic. It's just some of us are very pleased that practical armour is coming back for the ST.
     
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  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    What is there about her performance that's off? She's walking around, reacts to the blasters being leveled at her and then falls down pretending to be shot. She was played by an ILM staffer and not, you know, an actual actor.

    AOTC was the trial run for ROTS. Testing to see if it could be done. ROTS took it to the next level.
     
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  21. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 20, 2012
    She has no reaction to being shot, and then just falls down awkwardly.
     
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  22. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    The fact that she was an ILM staffer probably explains exactly why her performance is off, and it would have been even harder for a non actor to sell the performance with CG clones and a stack of blue screen around her. It's not well acted.
     
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  23. WatTamborWoo

    WatTamborWoo Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 22, 2011

    BOOYAKASHA!
     
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  24. JediKnightWax

    JediKnightWax Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014

    I could tell a lot of things were fake from the first viewing of the film. It actually took me out of the film. I had to actively ignore the bad CGI to fully enjoy the film.

    The first thing that stuck out the most was the way Obi wan was "pushed" when Dooku dropped the walkway on him.
     
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  25. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

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    Mar 29, 2014
    The worst thing about the CG clones is the abysmal head replacement you end up with in various shots throughout ROTS. It looks terrible every time and there is zero need for it in some cases. Build a suit, stick Temerura Morrison in it. Take the helmet off. Job done. I still cannot for the life of me understand the logic. And if George hadn't gone that route, I don't think anybody here would be suggesting that was a good idea. I can't even think of another film where something similar was needlessly attempted. Can anyone else?
     
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