ST Filming Techniques and Technologies for the ST

Yeah – I’ve made this point before in the very thread re. ‘real’ versus ‘believable’. For example, I totally believe in Woody, Buzz Lightyear, Yoda, Chewie etc. as characters, in context of the fiction,... but I know they are not real. In fact, I believe in any one of those characters more than any Nic Cage character I’ve seen on screen (but that’s something else). So yes, having actors fighting over a virtual lava river is just as ‘fake’ as having actors fighting against a virtual forest... and to some degree the more fantastic the situation/environment, the more one can be made aware that it’s all largely ‘artifice’ (as cinema obviously is anyways). However, this is only as limiting as the story being told. I thought The Hobbit: Battle of the 5 Armies achieved a brilliant sense of realism given that it was quite obvious that there was very little ‘virtual’ sets in the finale/showdown. And to a large extent, I think the PT achieved that too. As I said, I don’t particular like that specific scene of Anakin and Obi-Wan on the floating droids... but that has little to do with the ‘believability’ of the situation, but rather that I don’t care enough about that specific scene. I thought the duel prior to that, and of course the scene of Anakin’s immolation were great though.

 

This is the trick that Lucas didn't lose sight of that I think that JJ and PJ in particular do from the ME films and Trek. There is too much action or rather it just goes on too long. There are no analogue effects anymore so that doesn't matter but when people say JJ put some Wars into Trek I can't agree. I think it was more PJ into Trek.

When you really break Star Wars movies down you can go long stretches with no major action going down. ROTS is by far the most action orientated film and yet even then it takes long breaks between the action in the first half and to my mind never overdoes it. PJ would have made ROTS 3 hours long simply by extending the opening to twice it's length plus all the battles and duels seen. As Lucas says on the commentary they had more but battling Grievious and fighting on Kashyyyk and the like isn't the core story.

To me Lucas was about leaving you wanting more while for JJ and PJ I feel often like "enough already!" I really hope that JJ rewatched all the films before starting on this film and noted how Lucas structured the films and the pacing.

 

Except according to science, it wouldn't work the way Lucas and Roddenberry portrayed it. Hence the fantastical. "Interstellar" was more accurate in its depiction.

By ROTS, both Ewan and Hayden had enough experience with the blue and green screen to get a feel for what was to be expected of them. And because the two of them were concentrating on each other, rather than the environment, it worked.

Well that's because the footage was with Ford interacting with a human actor and in 1976, Jabba's final design was not settled upon. So Lucas and ILM had no choice but to do the tail stomp. But overall, the scene has Ford facing off with an actor who is covered up with a CGI creation. So there is that.

Oh and regarding the tornado analogy that was brought up



They didn't have the budget to have the Flash run up the tornado on various pieces of debris to get the Weather Wizard. But it would have been possible and credible.

And note that two of the actors in the Saga, had experience doing stage work where there's very little to work with and have occasionally interact with someone that isn't there to tell the story. So it really depends on what type of actor you have and what their experience is.

 

I agree with pretty much all of that, though I don't think JJ takes it TOO long. I think he gets the length just about right. Could be shorter and it wouldn't hurt, but I've never found myself wanting it to just be over like some other movies. Then again, I'm a big fan of Trek too, so I was probably okay with the action being on the long side.

The only sequence I can remember of Lucas's that felt too long was the Obiwan/Greivous chase (I've seen the animatics sequence of the longer version, and it could have been WAY worse). I guess I just didn't care about that part of the actual story. The outcome was inevitable, so I was ready to see it end. I think the Mustafar length was fine, pretty much any battle involving clones was a good length. I wished the Dooku/Anakin at the beginning of ep 3 was a little longer, but I understand why it wasn't.

I think Lucas does action well in terms of length, but maybe once or twice on the tiny bit of the long side. Nothing in Trek jumps out at me in being too long. I guess the climax to Into Darkness was one big long action scene, but it was broken up into chunks. From space battle, to space flying in the suits, to the gun fights, back to space battle, then to ground chase on foot. I guess if you count that whole sequence as one, it was too long, but it had enough variety for my tastes.

 

Well that's because the footage was with Ford interacting with a human actor and in 1976, Jabba's final design was not settled upon. So Lucas and ILM had no choice but to do the tail stomp. But overall, the scene has Ford facing off with an actor who is covered up with a CGI creation. So there is that.

About that part, and this is off topic but i'm wondering why with all the brains and money involved, when they did the tail stomp didnt they just use some creative editing;
example:
han starts to walk around the back of jabba
cut to chewie looking around or one of jabbas guys looking around
cut back to han now finished walking around jabba on the other side

i think this would have been a natural looking way to deal with the problem. anyone agree or know why? its been years since i watched the making of the SE's

 

It is possible that Lucas did think of this, or someone in ILM and ultimately it was decided to go through with it as is.

 

I think it would have been considered for sure, but I think it also would have appealed to George's sense of humour and his desire to push the tech envelope. I think it looks bad myself.

 

Yeah the tail stomp is weird and seems like a pretty disrespectful thing to do to a crime lord with whom you're bargaining for your life. Although when they updated the model, I do like the bit of animation where Jabba clinches his fist and looks angry until Han mentions money. That almost saves it.

 

Han was badass, remember?

 

The sound was cut with the film, and the way it was shot was in a single take. You cut the film, you cut the sound, you risk problems with the sound track.

To preserve the sound track, they refused to cut the take, and thus used cgi to cover for the walk around Jabba.

I personally like the result though, as it shows Han is as brash as we all knew he was. The Han that stepped on Jabba's tail, is the Han that we all know shot first in the Cantina.

He had a solid bargaining position and he knew it with the money he had coming and knew Jabba would go for it, thus he pushed Jabba whilst he could.

 

Yeah, a badass who panics and drops his shipments at the first sign of an Imperial cruiser, and spends half a year as a wall decoration because of it. A guy who's too badass to relate to the woman he loves on a human level instead of being a sarcastic idiot all the time so that she might actually admit her feelings to him before he's about to be turned into a block of ice. A badass who's so trusting he gets himself captured along with everyone he cares about. I could only aspire to be such a badass.

 

Mainly because it creates a continuity issue if they cut away from Han I.e. he then magically appears on the other side. This is something one tries to avoid in editing. If there's movement within frame, one would automatically look to show the actor hitting his 2nd mark... otherwise it appears that they have magically appeared elsewhere. Try the scene with some simple editing software. It doesn't work... they basically have to show Han swapping positions for it to not look really odd. Unfortunately this means being creative with Jabba's tail... Ultimately though, IMHO, the entire scene isn't required.

 

I think that's the kind of acceptable cheat no one would care about. I find it hard to believe various other solutions wouldn't have looked better than what they decided upon, but you are right, the entire scene is redundant (the worst offender in that scene is Boba Fett breaking the fourth wall to stare right at camera "LOOK AT ME! CAMEO, BABY!". Awful.

 

Umm... he's not looking at the camera... he stops and looks around the docking bay.

 

He's breaking the 4th wall and drawing attention to himself.

 

Since you can't see his eyes you can't really say he's looking at the camera. He looks in the camera's direction, but it doesn't particularly feel like breaking the fourth wall to me. Since it's his only appearance in that movie which sets up his role in the next one, and he we haven't seen him at that point since he was a kid in AOTC, I don't think there's anything wrong with emphasizing his presence a little bit.

 

The only reason he pulls that move is to draw attention to himself. I hate it.

You want to make sure his appearance is noted, film a cut away to him staring at Solo or Chewie.

 

I've been a movie extra, and a very bad one at that. It was an indie film and I'm friends with the writer/producer, so I somehow kept getting stuck in scenes even though I ruined who knows how many shots. It was a good learning experience though. For one, I learned I only ever want to be behind the camera and never in front of it. Seriously, I don't even let people take my picture anymore.

Anyway, I know all about how easy it is to overdo a moment like that, and in my opinion Boba skirts the line without going over in that scene. I can see why it might be a little too hammy for some people, but to me it's just a cool little "hey he's back" moment that doesn't ruin anything. There are tons of little moments in various star wars movies where more direct attention is drawn to something or someone tangential than can usually comfortably exist without coming close to breaking the fourth wall. But whatever you think of that moment, I don't think the fact that it was filmed in front of a blue screen had any impact on that particular performance (I'm on topic, I swear!).

 

I've been an extra and I work in the industry. Nothing can convince me that Fett cameo is well handled. It couldn't be much more on the nose to me. But each to their own. If it works for you, it works for you.

 

It works for me. He has a bucket on his head, it's not breaking the damned 4th wall.

I extra'd in A League of Their Own, quite invisibly. I got to watch them film "there's no crying in baseball!" and can't even find myself on freeze frame.

 

I meant breaking the 4th wall figuratively. He's totally calling attention to himself.

 

I'd agree with that... whilst I don't think he's supposed to be staring into the camera, it's a bit over stated. It would have been better if he's just walked past rather than stop and scan.

 

That's exactly what I mean.

 

The stop and scan isn't HIM calling attention to HIMSELF, it's the filmmaker calling attention TO him... it's Fett doing a move in Fett fashion.

To me, that is an artistic choice, and in no way what so ever even approaches the 4th wall IMO.

 

Is there ever an instance of a character calling attention to him/herself that is not ultimately an artistic choice made by the filmmaker?

Of course not, because characters aren't sapient, autonomous beings but rather elements in a story depicted on screen. Boba Fett isn't a real person. I know you know this, EviL_eLF, but what you're pointing out is kind of obvious and very literal.