Full Series Reconciling "The Last of the Jedi" with Rebels

In light of what we have now, Yoda not training Leia makes no sense, and Kenobi not training Luke. Logically it would sense that Yoda would train Leia and Luke would be trained as a padawan by Kenobi. And they'd actually keep the Jedi alive and strike back which they never do. They instead remain in hiding more out've embarrassment and personal failures in stopping both Sith Lords from the way it looks, and Yoda may not ordering either child be trained looks to echo his fear of Anakin back in TPM and not wanting the boy be trained. The OT makes it more like both Kenobi and Yoda were more awaiting the coming of a savior figure which is supposedly Luke or Leia. Yoda seems to be under the impression he has a choice and not very concerned whether Luke was their last hope, he seemed to have been graviating towards another(supposedly Leia) only Kenobi felt strongly in Luke and as if their time was short with more urgency involved. Both both Kenobi and Yoda could have died of old age, ill health or imperials and never trained Luke had things worked out differently with all that time lost. Yoda was already near death by the time Obi Wan decided to reappear right before Luke himself died on Hoth. Yoda and Kenobi both are largely absent and take long stretches of time to do anything regardless as to whether they're old farts, the Ghost stuff too isnt a constant thing.

Atleast with Maul he had an excuse cause he was stranded in exile and crippled and had to fight for lone survival on the dangerous Lotho Minor but he eventually lost his marbles in the waiting years.

We do not see Kenobi & Yoda taking a more active role in the development of the Rebellion or saving younglings, they're retired in exile , to be forgotten. Ahsoka being aware of the "new hope" could think its Ezra as she seems more concerned with Ezra's development than Kanan whom she deliberately stayed outve contact with and seems ignorant of a Jedi being in command and Tano was in close contact with Hera alone for years apparently. Yoda would like a return of the Jedi but is not more proactive in the OT where he was solidarity and a hermit still living in hiding and not rebuilding the Jedi Order . Kenobi the same thing, he only becomes reactivated when the war comes to Tatooine and Leia needs his helpt but it was only through fate or the Force, that Luke got intertwined along with the two droids who play a crucial role in all coming together. Luke also had the freedom of choice, Kenobi wouldve left him on Tatooine had Luke chose that.

Unless they drastically change Kenobi's role and Yoda's to a more proactive one, they sorta begun by making them relevant in dark times in this era on the toon, but it still a problem that does not easily correct itself.

 

No, come on. I didn't mean it like that, Mate!

 

None of that means Kanan, Ezra, Ahsoka need to be dead...Darth Maul says hello.

If Vader/Tarkin/etc believe the others are dead, that's enough to go on. Tarkin believed Obi-Wan was dead, despite Vader's assurances otherwise...Tarkin also believed the Jedi were completely wiped out, dismissing Kanan--even while being tortured Tarkin was only willing to admit Kanan might be the Jedi he claimed to be.

And Vader's assurance to Palps that Obi-Wan could no longer help Luke also shows they have no idea Yoda's still alive... if Yoda, why not others? A lot of people seem to think we haven't seen the last of our Season 1 Inquisitor, despite him falling into fire on an exploding ship falling into the gravity well of a planet with no usable spacecraft left. That might happen--escape pods are a thing, after all--and if he does pop up, the Specters would surely be surprised since they thought he was toast. A fake-out would suffice to convince the Empire that the Force-using 'threats' introduced in Rebels were taken care of.

 

this is just season 1, I mean I don't judge the rest of a book if I only read the first chapter, give them time I'm sure they know what they're doing

 

Insert Vader NOOO

First "Force Unleashed", now this. I really don't like Force users running around the galaxy so long after ROTS and close to ANH. In the OT I get the idea that they haven't been seen in some time, and Obi-wan places hope in Luke.

Why is Luke such a hope, when you have these force users still roaming around fighting against the Empire. In a ANH it seems as if the Jedi were thought to be wiped out so long ago.

After reading spoilers on Rebels I don't think I want to watch the entire season anymore, even out of curiosity now.
Even though I'd like to see more of Vader in things I don't want to see him in Rebels.

As for Ahsoka, I like seeing her in TCW era and a little after ROTS, but not during this time period. This may seem weird, but in the big picture I don't want her canon. I like her character to be a kind of legends things, but it seems odd for Anakin to have a padawan and I don't like Vader having starkiller.

What's next?

Cyborg Windu
Kit Fisto with reattached head
Ki Adi Mundi back from the dead (might as well have night of the living Jedi)
Spider-Maul
Younglings Sith Inquistor Force
Shaak Ti appears to have yet another alternate death

As Tarkin would say "Enough of this"
.....this all a joke

And Star Wars detours was cancelled......

 

Yoda said "The last of the Jedi will you be" Obi-Wan said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" I wouldn't really take a jedi on their word lol

this is how I see it: he lied plain and simple, but look him and Obi-Wan decided that Luke Skywalker was going to defeat Vader and Palpatine he was their Chosen One they didn't want anyone else to do it it HAD to be Luke they saw him as the son of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived,so who are you going to go with? some failed padawans who ran away or the son of the guy who was conceived by The Force?

Yoda lied because Luke told him he couldn't kill his own Father if Yoda had said "well actually now that I think about it there are like 3 other Jedi left" Luke would have searched them out and had one of them do it instead of fulfilling his mission he was being trained for. This was Luke's Destiny plain and simple it was a little white lie that changed the course of galactic history

okay ranting over I hope this gets a reference in Episode 7 lol

REY: did you know their were at least 3 Jedi still alive during the Galactic Civil War?
LUKE: yeah and where were they when I was getting zapped by lightning?

 

If this is true then the Force Priestesses pose just as much of a threat as Ahsoka or Kanan to Yoda's proclamation. Maybe we should get an arc where Yoda murders them.

And if we just want to argue about shaping the NEU around the themes in RotJ then raw power has very little to do with it. RotJ revolves around Luke winning due to the love of his father. Ahsoka, Kanan, Witches or any other force user have nothing to do with it.

So Vader isn't supposed to consider Yavin a major potential victory because they might not have killed 3 specific adversary's of his? Is he supposed to name off every single one of his enemies in the galaxy who is still left?

I also think analyzing ANH on its own terms is a mistake. Nobody really knew where SW was going when they were making that film, so we have to read meaning into statements that probably didn't exist at the time. So we can see Tarkin mentioning Vaders' 'Jedi religion' has him giving Vader a hard time. It is the same as how we interpret Obi-Wan calling Vader "Darth" as sarcasm when at the time he was probably just calling him by his first name.

Honestly, I think we just have a fundamental difference on how much give and take there should be in SW. I see SW as a huge improvised experiment in long form storytelling. It didn't intend to be that in the beginning, but that is what it is now. So naturally not everything is going to fit perfectly with the founding documents (and even the founding documents don't fit together perfectly because of how much they were improvised). If there is a worthy story to be told that doesn't explicitly contradict previous material then it should be told.

 

Luke is "such a hope" because he's the son of the Chosen One. He's the only person who can get Vader to turn from the dark side; he may not be the only one who could defeat Vader in combat, but anyone who could do that would likely get their ass handed to them by Palpatine shortly after (as they would most certainly not be at a Yoda-level, and--although it was as poorly-depicted as the overwhelming numbers & ferocity of the Ewoks in ROTJ--Palpatine's speed & power is supposedly how he was meant to be able to take down Mace's buddies so quickly). Luke's the only one who could do the job, thru power or love (turn off the Huey Lewis, I said "or"!)

Other Jedi-types could be doing any of a million other things... it's a big galaxy. There were only 10,000 Jedi at their height in AOTC (I'd really like someone to ask Pablo if that number included Padawans & Younglings, or if it solely referred to Knights & Masters, as we have at least two occasions in the Saga where Padawans are categorized as "not Jedi"). 10,000, in a galaxy of trillions. People may have heard of them, especially during the war, but your average citizen--even your average Imperial soldier or officer--likely hasn't seen one in ages, if ever, by the time of the OT. There could be one world at the far edge of the Outer Rim sporting 200 Jedi survivors in a little enclave on a remote island...that doesn't mean everyone on that world has met them, seen them, or even heard of them. It's small wonder that the rest of the galaxy might not know of their existence, either.

That doesn't really change even if Kanan, Ezra, Ahsoka, and others are part of the Rebellion and off doing heroic things, sabers a-blazing, for the next several years. I'd guess even most residents of the capital city of Lothal just think the whole "Jedi sightings" reports are nothing more than Bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster tales, and even many who witnessed any saber-swinging activities might just chalk it up to some madman getting ahold of an old lightsaber.

Jedi-types being active--yet unknown to Luke--during the OT can work; they--and their teammates--may be treated as elite special forces, or even black-ops type of troops, those that High Command may know of but your average Rebel trooper has no idea about. I imagine they're not meant to be used as flashy rallying-points, since brandishing a saber in the city square and waving an Alliance flag is a sure way to draw heavy Imperial attention, and draw folks like Vader or his Inquisitors into pursuing the associated rebels. If I were involved in story meetings for this show, I'd keep the Force-using antics restricted to special missions. There'd be plenty of opportunity for some saber-swinging, but not the kind of spectacle Kanan made of himself on Kessel in "Spark".

They made Anakin having a Padawan work, and work well. I thought it was a dumb idea at the start, but by the time she says "I know" as farewell to Anakin? I loved it! They wrote her out of his life nicely, everything still works. Starkiller, I will agree, was kinda silly. The notion of a secret apprentice was kinda fun, but it lost me with the whole "Starkiller forms the Rebel Alliance" angle, and especially when "Starkiller's family crest becomes the Alliance symbol to honor his sacrifice". Ugh. No thanks. Glad he's no longer canon, tho I wouldn't mind Galen Marek turning up as an Inquisitor with a bit of a story arc (I'm kinda hoping we'll get at least one Inquisitor who's got some depth of character, tho they may save that for Zare Leonis' sister)

I doubt we'll see Windu again... I also doubt we'll see the Youngling Inquisitor Preschool Brigade. Spider-Maul already happened in TCW; if we see him turn up in Rebels, he'll have his Mandalorian prosthetics, or a more up-to-date replacement. Shaak Ti may finally get her official canon death in this show, but they could always throw than in the Kanan comic or some other venue, or just list her as one of the victims of the Luminara trap (one would think a Jedi Master might fare well against that particular Inquisitor, however).

 

I think having vader kill Shaak ti would be great.

 

Given the focus that Yoda's line from ROTJ seems to be getting, I thought I'd add another quote to the mix.

While the Jedi Order and the Order of Sith Lords walkway with the lion's share of screen time, the Legends continuity mentions dozen of Force traditions. The first one that came to mind was the Jensaarai from I, Jedi. While many of these traditions were isolated to single planets or sectors - like the Dathmorii witches and Zeison Sha - that have continued on since the Old Republic and continue to do so even after the Rise of the Empire era. Other traditions like the Jensaarai began as off shoots of the Jedi teachings. .

While Yoda does tell Luke that "Last of the Jedi, you will be"... That only means that Luke will be the last student trained by the last Masters of the old Jedi Order. It isn't taken to mean that all Force-users are Jedi or Sith. While it is true that Kanan has been using Jedi philosophy to teach Ezra, I don't believe he is following the Jedi traditions. Kanan is teaching only the lessons and parables that he recalls, and as he pass them on they are colored by his own experiences -- perhaps creating a new Force tradition in the process. And while we have now seen a grown Ahsoka, I think it safe to say that she may have thought to further her own training with the Force after leaving the Jedi Order. Whether she did this by seeking out other exiled Jedi or seeking to learn from another Force tradition (or traditions).

For what it's worth? I don't consider Ezra, Kanan, or Ahsoka to be Jedi... I consider them to be closer to Potentium heretics or perhaps Gray Jedi.

 

They aren't immortal, they will die eventually.

 

What? She isn't related to the Clan MacCleod?!

 

There were definitely arguments at the time. It was a really dumb decision for the EU to do that.

 

I don't recall seeing many, but then I didn't frequent these boards often back then. My biggest beef with K'Kruhk's survival was they never really finished that story; people seemed to figure that he was out of commission during the OT, somehow, like in hibernation like T'ra Saa or in carbonite or something, but the way Dark Horse left it, he was on a backwater world raising a bunch of Jedi at a new temple, farming the land around them and basically just not getting involved. If that's all it was, that's fine--but I would wonder why he & his charges don't venture out when they sense disturbances in the Force, like Luke's emergence as a key player, or the death of the Sith at Endor (you'd think that would cause quite a disturbance). Neither Dark Horse or Del Rey ever explained how/when K'Kruhk joined up with Luke's NJO...but based on the continuity of the books, as I recall anyway, he hadn't rejoined them even as of Fate of the Jedi--so over 30 years after Endor, he's still off...somewhere. That bothered me.

Empatojayos bothered me more because he was a cyborg Weeble and some random guy who finally kills Palpatine for good... the others, eh... Rahm Kota stuck out some, but so much of the story of TFU was over the top. Still, a Kota-type could work even during the OT timeframe if he's not at the main Rebel bases, not involved with Luke at all, etc. It's a big galaxy, he could be off elsewhere, doing other Alliance business, maybe even providing distractions to keep the Empire on its toes.

 

A wrap up of how K'khruk and and Tra S'aa joined the NJO is needed. Han shot the Palpatine clone, killing that body. Brand just made sure he wouldn't possess anyone else didn't he and dragged him to the afterlife? Works for me.

 

They will die of old age, doing their own things.

 

Hear, hear!

For Kanan, especially since in EU, Mace Windu seems to be adept at tapping Dark Side powers, Gray Jedi is more suitable.

 

I absolutely agree with this.

And I agree with all of this, it's all very fair. The issue, I think, is:

1. We've been told that these founding documents are considered the "immovable objects of SW history."

and more to the point

2. I think the issue is that some people would argue that these changes do explicitly contradict that previous material. Folks will never fully agree about this, though, because whether or not it actually is an explicit contradiction is very much a matter of opinion.


All of this is predicated on these other Jedi actually surviving, but to me, Yoda telling Luke he is the "last Jedi," when we know that Yoda is aware of at least Kanan acting as a Jedi, with Ezra as his Padawan, is an example of an explicit contradiction which requires further "yeah, but's" to even begin to be made to work.

Filoni has opted for the, "Yeah, but maybe Yoda was just telling Luke what he needed to hear" approach. Whether this is satisfying is up to the individual. To me? No, not so much. "From a certain point of view" is a fine thing, but when it becomes the catch-all phrase for the folks at Lucasfilm -- the crutch which allows them to do whatever they darn well please -- it gets to be a bit much.

I cannot tell you how many times Filoni alone has said in an interview things like "I know we all thought for thirty years that a, b or c, but maybe what was really happening was x, y or z. " It feels less and less to me like we're being asked to keep an open mind about things, and more and more like we are expected to just take whatever they give us, without any regard whatsoever for what has come before, and accept it simply because SW is an evolving thing and everything is open to interpretation.

If these canonized works truly are "immovable," then I'm beginning to feel like, "Hey there, Lucasfilm: Instead of doing whatever you want to in a story, and then trying to convince us all that it's 'technically' possible from a certain point-of-view, how about you strive to work in closer harmony with what has already been established?"

 

Yeah I love how Obi-Wan and Yoda believed attachment was forbidden and it would lead to the Dark side but Luke proves them wrong by saving his Father through his attachment to him

 

Found the Solution. All remaining Jedi are to be frozen in carbonite as Darth Vader's trophies! Because of this, Luke is truly "Last of the Jedi" when Yoda says it.

This also explains why when Han was frozen, he wasn't sure if he'd survive, after all, Han was no Jedi. After Luke destroys Vader, he visits his fathers castle to find rooms full of Jedi in carbonite. 'The Force Awakens' is about Luke thawing out the Jedi, and Ahsoka, Kanan, Ezra, and others are literally wakened.

 

Star Wars is a cash cow at this point. Disney will pump out as many Jedi as they think will make them money.

All these new comics and books are meant to be canon but do people really take them for that?

Did Darth Maul really come back with robot legs?

Was Asohka really running around with Obi Wan and Anakin during the Clone Wars?

Was Ezra aka Luke 2.0 really around shortly before A New Hope?

Of course not. This is corporate entertainment trying to make a buck, it's not George Lucas produced movies with at least some artistry.

 

Ok, now here is the sentence according to script:

So being a Jedi is going beyond the dark side and at the same time, according to Obi-Wan, Anakin lost his Jedi status over this. So if Kanan is a Jedi (beyond the dark side thing and patient) to be, that does not mean he can not loose it again. Like Anakin. No need to die.

 

Whether or not they technically qualify as "Jedi", I am still not at all a fan of the idea that there were other active, trained, lightsaber-wielding, lightside-using, Rebel-affiliated force users alive and active during the OT who were never once mentioned or made any visible impact on any of the events in the movies. Ahsoka especially would be absurd--not only was she Anakin's own apprentice and a hero during the Clone Wars, but she's since become a key, critical founding member of the Rebellion, so the idea that she somehow would have never once been referred to during the OT if she was still alive and active in any way seems ridiculous (which is part of why I do expect Ahsoka to die at Vader's hand).

But even for Ezra and Kanan, I hope that it doesn't end up that they were actively alive and helping the Rebellion during the OT. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to die, but if they don't then I hope we get some reason why they retire or go into hiding or something that explains why they were a nonfactor during the OT (rather than some silly "actually they were totally a big factor and it was just never mentioned for reasons" approach).

The issue with any of these characters being alive and active during the OT isn't about some silly technical point regarding the dictionary definition of "Jedi", it is that nothing in the OT gives us any impression whatsoever that the Rebellion actually has a bunch of Jedi-trained, lightsaber-wielding force users on their side, and in fact the total absence of people like this is a major piece of why Luke is such a big deal and why he has to go to such extraordinary lengths to find someone who can teach him. Retconning it so that actually there were all these other quasi-Jedi helping the Rebels during the OT devalues both Luke's role in the OT, and the characters of Ahsoka, Kanan and Ezra themselves (because if they are alive and active during the OT, why the hell aren't they doing anything worth mentioning during any of the most critical battles between the Rebellion and Empire).

 

If you consider the definition the OT gives us for being a Jedi dictionary... I did quote Obi-Wan for a reason, certainly not, because he is the dictonary of the OT.