Full Series Reconciling "The Last of the Jedi" with Rebels

I don't care about the definition of "Jedi" per se-- as far as I'm concerned, the idea that during the OT the Rebellion actually had a bunch of other Jedi-trained, lightsaber-wielding, force using heroes helping them fight the Empire and they were just never mentioned at any point during the films for some reason is dumb. Even if Ahsoka isn't a Jedi, she is still a highly trained and capable force user armed with lightsabers she knows how to use, committed to fighting the Empire and helping the Rebellion, and with a close personal connection to Darth Vader himself--the notion that somehow she (or even Ezra and Kanan) were actually running around in the background of the OT the entire time, yet for some reason were never mentioned or made any visible impact on any onscreen events at any point, just doesn't work.

 

Again, I think this is another discussion clouded where the the Jedi as an organization is being confused with Jedi as a person. They may be trained by people who are or were a Jedi, but if they don't choose to uphold the values/tenets of the organization are they still technically Jedi? The distinction is important.

 

The distinction is important regarding the technical accuracy of the "last of the jedi" statement. But it isn't really important at all in determining whether its a good idea to retcon the OT so that there were actually a bunch of other saber-carrying lightside-using force users actively helping the Rebellion during the time. Even if they aren't Jedi due to specific philosophical reasons or whatever, it still seems incredibly silly that they would have been running around the entire time that Luke and Co were doing their thing and nobody would have once mentioned them.

 

Let's see here:

-Obi Wan and Yoda lied in order to motivate Luke. The OT showed that they were not above being "selective" with the truth if they considered it to be for the greater good.

-Yoda was mistaken. He's very wise and powerful, but he's not an omnipotent God who's knows EVERYTHING. Hell he couldn't even tell that the big bad Sith Lord that the Jedi were searching for was sitting like five feet from him in the same damn room for YEARS until it was far too late.

-Yoda believed them to be dead, doesn't automatically mean that they are.

-It's a big Galaxy. The others are in an area remote/far away enough that they're not in a position to provide help.

-They're in hiding for some reason.

Do you want me to keep going because I can? Point is, there are any number of ways to get around that statement. Plus again, shackling writers NOW to like three or four lines of dialogue total over THREE films that were made THIRTY YEARS ago strikes me as a really dumb idea. Especially since they had NO IDEA back then that SW would become this huge thing and that we'd get all this subsequent stuff.

 

They should rewrite them then, so they could have full creativity. What is stopping them ?

 

The issue is not that one statement. Even if that line was literally never said in the films ever, the fact that none of these other force users helping the rebellion (including Ahsoka, who was apparently one of the Rebellion's founders, had received years of Jedi training before the order fell, and was Vader's own goddamn apprentice) were mentioned even once by either the rebels or the empire, nor made any visible impact on any of the critical events depicted during the films, makes coming up with reasons why they "were actually totally alive and helping out the whole time" seem really, really silly.

 

In my opinion in a "good" story characters have a time and place. This isn't just about canon to me. I like the idea of no Jedi running around the galaxy around Luke's time. I like to see the situation more desperate in the fight against Palpatine. I don't like Jedi roaming around the galaxy so many years after ANH. It doesn't mean they can't exist though, I just rather have them not take part in the rebellion.

Having a Jedi appear in rebels wasn't really a problem for me at first, what I don't like is a Ezra being trained. I don't think these characters should be around in when ANH happens.

I think rebels should have taken place earlier in time, if they are going to use Jedi.

I wasn't bothered by Jedi at first appearing,(more attention was one kiddiness and bad animation) would have like to see Luminara, but when I think about it in light of the movies I don't like it. If this was five years after ROTS and the rebels were former separatist with Jedi and with competent Imperials, I think it would have been interesting.

As much as I like to get more of Vader in the show, I'd rather not have in a Rebels unless it got less childish and better animation.

I'd rather not have Ahsoka be a part of the rebellion, we see later. She could have been part of an earlier usprsiing that fails instead. Please no Vader/Ahsoka battle.

I don't think a character should be thrown in just because they are likeable. I want to see Ventress's story, but I wouldn't want to see her fourteen years later leading a rebellion.

 

The fact that we have two sources on the opposite sides of the war saying the same thing is all you need to know. There is no way Ashoka, Kanan, and Ezra can possible survive as active members in the galaxy. Kanan and Ezra are both known to Tarkin and Yoda, the two characters who say there are no other Jedi outside of the Skywalkers. There is no way around this. They cannot be actively running around the galaxy like they are Jedi as they are already known to both sides as Jedi. Ashoka being a prominent member of the Alliance, but being 100% absent from the Alliance, especially when there is a new Skywalker, means she also cannot be actively running around the galaxy like she is a Jedi. It doesn't matter what her official affiliation is. She would be known as a lightsaber wielding force user, she would have been aware of Luke being a Skywalker, and Leia would have been aware of her. Instead she is nowhere to be found, and Leia acts like she has never encountered or known of a real life force user before Luke. In both scenarios the story demands these characters be at the very minimum inactive during the OT, and honestly strongly suggests they have to die.

The is no problem with having force users. There is no problem with having ex-Jedi or jedi trained force users in hiding. The problem comes when these people are actively participating, and using the force and/or lightsaber in obvious ways where the Empire, and major Rebel Alliance leaders, like Leia, would know of them. Go against this undermines the story of the OT. It completely breaks continuity, and leads you down the path of poor story telling.

In many ways this is much like light side versus dark side in storytelling. The dark side is faster, easier, and sexy, but ultimately it fails because you aren't sticking to continuity, you aren't sticking to good storytelling practices, it ultimately undermines your goal, and honestly it is amateurish. Whereas upholding what has come before, sticking to good storytelling practices, avoiding continuity problems is more difficult, but leads to a better quality story that does not require explanations to make sense in the viewers mind.

You cannot have everyone in the OT be unaware of 2 lightsaber wielding force users and 1 apprentice who are playing major roles in galactic events, especially when the two characters who expressively say there are no others left are actually fully aware of their existence.

 

In a strictly literal interpretation of the OT, this is correct. Though it is pretty apparent that they (story group) are moving in a slightly different direction/interpreting it differently. Some viewers (myself included) apparently have a similar interpretation. There could be dozens of reasons for this, but I think a likely explanation for changing the narrative slightly from what had been previously accept as absolute (ironic) is to setup things for events in TFA (no I personally don't believe we will see any of the characters from Rebels in TFA). Ironically as Kenobi stated in ROTS, only the Sith speak in absolutes. Interpreting Yoda's dialogue as absolute would be a mistake IMO. As I have said before, Kenobi and Yoda weren't exactly straight shooters with Luke. Tarkin on the other hand could very well have believed at the time that there are absolutely no other Jedi of the old religion still around, and he may have been very correct in a literal sense as he would not hold to (assumption) the idea that there are other possibilities. Tarkin strikes me as an individual that requires proof of existence before considering something possible.

The possibility that Kanan or Ezra may turn from the path of the Jedi is still a very much that, a possibility. Whether Ahsoka held to the Old Religion or not still remains to be seen. This is why defining what is a Jedi is important because if they turn away from the path but remain a light force user, would that still make them Jedi or simply just a force user that is non-aligned that does not use the darkside of the force? Of course, this isn't to say that none of them cannot, or will not die in the course of Rebels. However, but as someone else pointed out in another thread, the possibility of escape (in this case running or hiding) is always in the cards when talking about the fate of a character.

This whole premise rests on the assumption that Leia has met every operative within the Alliance and/or is completely in the loop on everything that goes on as far as rebel activity is concerned. I find that a bit of a stretch. Also, I think it would be a bit of an overestimation to say that Leia would have been regarded in the same esteem as her father by other Alliance members, but that also kind of remains to be seen regarding how they build events in the show for her character up to ANH. So this doesn't really convince me that it isn't possible that there aren't or weren't other Jedi in the Rebel Alliance. At least in this stage of the show.

 

There could easily be many reasons why such characters aren't present or visible in the course of the OT... where were Mon Mothma and Admiral Ackbar on Yavin? Where were they on Hoth? We didn't see or hear from either of them until the briefing in ROTJ, yet they're key players in the Rebel Alliance, placed high above Leia. Why were there no B-wings or A-wings involved in the assault on the first Death Star, when it seems A-wings have been around for years? Why were only X-wings flying escort during the Hoth evacuation? Why were all pilots dressed in orange suits in ANH--even during the ceremony--when we have an idea from the Season 2 concept art that the ROTJ-style uniforms exist well before ANH itself? Why were there exactly ZERO non-human organic beings visible, aside from Chewbacca, in any Rebel Alliance scene from ANH or ESB? Where did the B-wings vanish to in the Battle of Endor? They disappear after realizing it's a trap. (I know there's a short story from the Insider detailing what at least some of them did, but you hopefully see my point)

For all the talk that the Yavin Base was 'it', it can't have been all there was to the Rebellion. Ahsoka/Ezra/Kanan/others could easily be on missions of great importance--great importance to the Rebellion, but not to the story being told within the OT. Even during the Battle of Endor, there could be reasons to have dispatched them elsewhere... maybe they were part of the Bothan mission that discovered the plans to the 2nd Death Star (instead of, y'know, Luke from SOTE) and while many Bothans died, the Specters & Ahsoka were all injured and in bacta tanks during the Endor mission. It's a big galaxy, and this Rebellion is supposed to be catching fire across it... every single element can't be present on-screen at all times.

 

My God..... You read my mind.....

 

I don't buy it. If Ahsoka was around and actively involved in the rebellion during the OT, I absolutely think that is something Vader would remark upon, and that would also have come up when Luke was looking for a teacher. Fanwanking reasons why this isn't the case (e.g. "actually she was just on such a super secret mission the whole time that not even Luke could hear about it" or something) isn't impossible, but it does stretch my suspension of disbelief, and feels blatantly like a retcon, and I really, really hope thats not what they end up doing.

 

Some characters I think should just stay in the past in my opinion.
I don't like getting characters that are interesting and I like as part of the main story, only for other's thrown in to steal the limelight.

Can you imagine in J.K Rowling wrote another Harry Potter book set during her books with another boy wizard ultra powerful fighting Voldemort in the shadows?

Or if the all the dwarves in the Hobbit followed the fellowship?

Or if another heir to the throne of Gondor was running around?

Personally, I don't want characters added to take away and distract from what I liked about Star Wars in the first place.

I did like getting some new characters in TCW, but to me it's different.

 

"Your destiny lies along a different path than mine."

That's all it takes...Ahsoka having a vision, or perhaps even Obi-Wan or Yoda speaking to her (Obi-Wan might have an easier time of it after ANH, when he's a ghost and can basically travel the galaxy at will) and saying "Listen, there's this kid... his name'll sound familiar to you, but you gotta stay out of it. His destiny is different than yours, and while you're doing good work, you gotta leave him to us--he needs to be a Jedi, not a Ronin Bendu Whatever You Call Yourself."

Might she be helpful to Luke? Of course; she knows far more about the Force than he does, and would also have valuable information about his parents. But Yoda & Obi-Wan are convinced that the fate of the galaxy and downfall of the Sith rest solely on Luke's shoulders (or Leia's if he fails!)--they've been waiting for this ever since Episode III. Any wild-card, even a benevolent one like Ahsoka, may screw things up and send Luke down the wrong path.

As for Vader, he may be convinced that she's dead or otherwise out of the picture by the time of the OT. There is no reason to mention her in the story, even when talking about how Obi-Wan can't help Luke in ESB... just as there was no mention of Ahsoka in ROTS despite her surviving (I remember people thought it'd be impossible for her to survive without being mentioned in some way). If Vader has no reason to think Ahsoka might know of Luke, then there's no reason to connect them... especially if Vader's spared Ahsoka's life at some point earlier and has hidden this from Palpatine for a long time. It's also the kind of thing they could address, if they wanted to, in spinoff material set between the films or behind the scenes of the events of the movies... not everything that happens in the galaxy during the OT happens on-screen in the OT.

None of those are fair comparisons, really... neither Ezra, Kanan, nor Ahsoka are "the Chosen One's offspring". They're just Green Lanterns, among the last of their kind, doing their own thing in their own area of the universe, occasionally battling Atrocitus or Sinestro...but Luke is Kyle Rayner, the Torchbearer, Ion, the most powerful Lantern ever, the one who brings back the Green Lantern Corps and resurrects the Guardians of Oa.

 

A book showing other perspectives in HP: DH is needed imo.

 

Are you supposing that Luke should be near omniscient regarding other force users in the Rebel Alliance for story purposes? That would stretch my suspension of disbelief..... To the breaking point.

 

There is no interpretation to be had. Tarkin and Yoda are both aware of Kanan and Ezra, and both confirm there are no others. The Rebellion is aware of Kanan and Ezra, but makes no effort to introduce Luke to them. There is not even a hint there may be others who are in any way major players in the galaxy, let alone the rebellion.

When they had reason. When they were trying to protect him, trying to test him, or trying to teach him. There was no reason to not tell him the truth if there were others.

Proof as in meeting a Jedi face to face and torturing him?

A light side user would be defined as a Jedi in common practice.

Like I said, an ex-Jedi in hiding does not break continuity or turn Tarkin and Yoda into liars.

 

He doesn't have to be all knowing. He is part of the Rebel Alliance. Which is a group of people mostly lead by people who would know the name Skywalker. When they got word of a young man by the name Skywalker destroying the Death Star someone would have taken notice. I doubt such a fact would go unnoticed by Ahsoka who seems to be a person who would have been told about the Death Star being destroyed.

 

I am saying that the notion that the Rebels had all these other trained force users working for them, yet never once mentioned this to Luke when he was looking for a teacher, nor involved said force users in any of the critical missions or battles between the Empire and Rebellion during the OT, is frankly pretty dumb. It is, as one of the other posters pointed out, like finding out that there were actually some other heirs to Gondor running around fighting Sauron in another part of Middle Earth throughout LotR who Gandalf knew about but decided not to mention. Its also thematically pretty bad, because it simultaneously makes Luke less special, while also making Ahsoka or whoever seem fairly ineffectual--she goes from basically starting the rebellion in Rebels, to five years later playing no role whatsoever in any of the most critical conflicts with Vader and the Emperor, e.g. completely sitting out the Battle of Endor. I don't care what "secret mission" people decide she was on, there's still no getting around the fact that she was alive and active yet in the final battle against the Emperor and Vader played no direct role whatsoever.

The entire approach just makes everyone involved seem less cool.

I would much prefer it if they handled Ahsoka the same way Star Wars always handles more experienced Jedi-types who offer guidance to the heroes--kill her off in a big dramatic sacrifice (probably in a fight against Vader). "Ahsoka heroically sacrifices herself to save the rebels from vader, much like Obi-Wan would do several years later" is just a much better sendoff for the character than having her be still alive but relegated to doing background **** that no one seems to feel is worth mentioning.

 

When did Yoda confirm there are no others? I don't mean in ROTJ... we don't know who he could or couldn't sense during the era of Rebels aside from Kanan & Ezra--and he only sensed them because Kanan took Ezra on as apprentice & they happened to be in a Jedi Outpost. Tarkin's assertion that there are no others seems as meaningless to me as Prime Minister Almec's assertion that Jango was just a common bounty hunter rather than a Mandalorian warrior. It's his opinion. He didn't believe Kanan was a Jedi as so many on Lothal claimed, even after meeting him. You could hear the quotes around "Jedi" when he spoke it most of the time, and was only starting to consider that Kanan may be the Jedi he claims to be after the mind probe had been going on awhile.

There's one very good reason I've mentioned in several posts in the last few days around the web: to get Luke to face Vader. Remember in ROTS? When Yoda & Obi-Wan are planning to go after the Sith? Obi-Wan can't bear to face Anakin, his brother, and possibly kill him... he begs Yoda to let him go after Sidious. Luke is in the same situation: "You must face Darth Vader again." "I can't kill my own father." "Then the Emperor has already one. You were our only hope." "Yoda spoke of another" See? Luke's looking for a way out, in addition to genuinely being curious about this other Skywalker. If the other wasn't a Skywalker, and was just some other Jedi-type, then Luke would likely try to get them to face Vader...but since it's his entirely-untrained twin sister, he knows it's up to him. Easier to tell Luke he's the last then to say "Well, there are others, but since you're the son of the Chosen One you're the only one with the power to defeat Vader and the Emperor--even tho you'll actually do so by believing in the good in your father." They don't seem to believe that love will save the day, so they can't explain to Luke that appealing to Anakin is the only way to win... and they'd need to explain it that way if they were to convince him that some other Jedi with years more training & experience wouldn't be right for the job. Simpler to fib "from a certain point of view" and let him accept his destiny rather than send other Jedi to their doom.

Common, but not accurate... the Inquisitor is no Sith, after all, tho he uses the dark side. Filoni stated himself that Ahsoka is not a Jedi, signified by her choice of saber color (or the Force's choice, however the color thing works when retrieving crystals & attuning to them) even if people may assume she is. People have argued over the years that to the common man, there's little difference between Jedi and Sith... both use sabers, both have magic powers; Joe Q. Rodian wouldn't know the significance of a red, green, or white lightsaber blade. It's just "easier" to call some saber-wielding person a Jedi... but we know that's not always accurate. According to Padme, Anakin was not a Jedi in AOTC--just a Padawan. According to Yoda, Luke was not a Jedi when he was speaking with him on Dagobah in ROTJ--only after he faced Vader again would he graduate from Padawan to Jedi.

 

Everyone knows that technically Yoda's statement can be worked around, that doesn't mean it doesn't ruin the dramatic effect of Luke being the last Jedi.

And we shouldn't go by the OT because it was made 30 years ago? The OT is the entire basis for the SW saga and without it, Rebels wouldn't exist. And I'm pretty sure when they were making ROTJ, they already knew SW was kind of a big deal.

 

Agreed

P.S I wish the quoting thing worked for me fully as I can't get the person said thing to appear even when I click reply

 

It creates the question is Luke the last of the Jedi, was Yoda even. It also asks if Yoda knew what he was talking about, and if he did , did he deliberately tell Luke misinformation for his own good or the good of the overall missions he set Luke on. Ahsoka appears to not involved herself with Kanan at all, but was aware of him and helping him move closer to being a Jedi again and later with Ezra. But she only aided those two in some partial and elusive manner through Hera. Had Kanan and Ezra not made that call through the tower, Tano may of never revealed herself for another couple of years.

 

Again other viewers to include myself, as well as possibly the story group disagree. If you have ever analyzed literature/poetry, interviewed different people regarding an event, or read a story from different perspectives you will realize that saying there is only one way to interpret and no others is simply not correct. I don't know how much more clear I can make it.

This would still make them liars then...

No reason? Getting him to face Vader, his father, and defeat him isn't a reason to lie to him? Even if there weren't/aren't others, this doesn't erase the fact that they still lied to him about Vader and Leia. You can push the blame to Lucas retconning the story, but then you will have to explain how and why their words can be taken at face value as an absolute truth to be trusted.

It did take some convincing in Rebels for Tarkin to consider the possibility. When he verbally reprimanded Maketh Tua in "Call to Action" that they no longer exist, he made it pretty clear then that they are no more. Using words like "they died, every last one of them" and "knew" when talking about the Jedi.

As I thought, most people likely think this way.

Uh... Technically yes it does as by as others' definition, and yours if I understand your premise of the definition as well, they would still be Jedi as they are lightside force users. Former or otherwise. Whether they are mentioned or in hiding becomes immaterial at that point.

Again, anyone being on the same path or having the same role as Luke is news to me.... Thematically it makes perfect sense considering how close Bail was to Kenobi, Yoda, and others from the Order to try and involve former Jedi or light force users in the Alliance. It also makes sense that to limit those operatives exposure due to possible spies within the Alliance ranks, that this kind of knowledge isn't freely disseminated. What doesn't make sense is to automatically assume that these other Jedi that may or may not survive into the OT and work with the rebellion, have the same chance at defeating Vader as Leia or Luke (in response to your point about Gondor). I won't deny that only Luke or Leia (after being trained) would be able to confront Vader/Emperor and have the outcome we did in ROTJ, but that isn't what I am talking about here.

Because being a Jedi (or having a connection to the force in Leia's case) is unique? There were around 10,000 running around at one point in time.... And in a time when medichlorians determines your force connection, how special one is to be a force user can be measured (thanks to the PT).

It's a little early to say that this won't happen, or that she won't go into self imposed exile like Kenobi or Yoda. But I suspect that you aren't upset over her returning, but rather that she was never mentioned or appeared in any canon material beyond TCW or Rebels.

This assumes A LOT. This assumes that the Alliance and all its operatives are centrally located, and there is no reason to assume this considering that Bothans stole the plans for the Death Star II. In fact I don't think we have ever seen any Bothans in canon, and ROTJ was the first time they were mentioned. This also assumes that she would place a greater emphasis finding Luke as opposed to fulfilling her role within the rebellion. I

 

As of the PT, Luke's dramatic importance isn't "last of the Jedi", it's "son of the Chosen One". His importance as last of the Jedi, true or not, is worthless... if Ezra was last of the Jedi in his place, he couldn't have defeated the Sith. He'd either kill Vader and die to Palpatine, kill Vader and turn to the dark side and become Palpatine's new puppet, or fall to the dark side and join Vader & Palpatine both. Ezra, Kanan, even Ahsoka probably couldn't inspire the change in Vader that Luke's suffering, the suffering of this living remnant of Padme, could.

Luke's importance, ultimately, is not in his Jedi-ness, it's in his "son of Anakin & Padme"-ness. Obi-Wan and Yoda thought Anakin was a lost cause; Luke proved them wrong. His training as a Jedi just put him in a position to be of potential use to Vader & Palpatine as a Force-user; had Leia shown up, untrained, convinced there was good in Vader, she'd probably have been killed by one or the other before Vader could reflect on his mistakes and choose to save Padme's child... but it's still primarily Luke's relationship to Vader and his beliefs about Vader that cause the downfall of the Sith...not him being "last of the Jedi"