Full Series Reconciling "The Last of the Jedi" with Rebels

Um....no it doesn't assume anything other than the destruction of the Death Star is something that the leaders of the rebellion would have been told about no matter where in the galaxy they are. Why? Because it is a big freaking deal that the leaders of the rebellion would want, or in all actuality need, to know about. This is an organized rebellion by that point, not a bunch of loosely affiliated cells that are doing their own thing like it has been up to this point in Rebels.

 

As far as I understand the OT, the "last Jedi" kind of is Dark Vader, he moves beyond the dark side of the force, can redeem himself and thus join Yoda and Obi-Wan in the "afterlife". It is kind of tricky and raises the question, who first moved beyond the dark side, was it Luke or Anakin. But then again Lukes training was not complete, so he could still become the last of the Jedi. (Thus he founds the New Jedi Order, because this is also a way around this sentence).

As last of the Jedi, Yoda tells Luke to train others (in the same sentence he tells him he will be the last after Yodas death). And it is very weird, because he is not a Jedi yet, his training is not finished.

So, long weird arguments short, even within the OT there remains a question about the "will be" and the time. time is of essence and "the last Jedi" may be Vader (again), may be Luke (later).

At least that is my interpretation of this Jedi light/dark thing and the "easy way" aka the dark side. Of course you could also read is as "last of the Jedi order". It changes a few details about the story, especially the redemption of Vader, but it also works. It makes this inner struggle a little less important and kills the reason for the cave on Dagobah (as way for Luke to move beyond the dark side), but it works.

It may not feel right, anciet greek myths can be interpreted in many ways and I feel this is the strong thing about the OT, you could make different things out of this sentence. And it was not about the title Jedi, but about the force.

Back to our Star Wars Rebels at hand. It would be genious if the series would end in a sentence with many interpretations. And there may be simple reasons for Ahsoka, ezra and Kanan never to be Jedis. They have no guide to move them "beyond" the dark side. Yoda is gone, Obi-Wan is gone. All the masters have vanished.

But probably this is just too much read into it, and all the viewers want is a little pew pew, some lasersword swinging and a little force use here and there.

 

I'm not at all a fan of the idea that Ahsoka was active but either doing unimportant background stuff during the OT, or worse, was doing stuff that was actually really important but simply never referred to onscreen. The former undermines Ahsoka as a character, and the latter undermines the entire OT--part of the appeal of Star Wars is the sense that we're seeing the most important moments and events that shape the Galaxy, and changing it to a dynamic where the stuff we saw onscreen constituted only a small part of the key events that occurred during that time reduces the central importance of what we actually see. So Luke blew up the Death Star? Well, did you know that on the other side of the galaxy at the exact same time, Ahsoka was on some secret mission that was just as important and awesome, but was never mentioned because it was so secret? Did you know what while the Rebels were evacuating during the Battle of Hoth, Ezra and Kanan were in another sector of the galaxy totally kicking Imperial ass, which we never heard about it because it might mess with Luke's special destiny or whatever?

If Ahsoka dies saving the rebels from Vader or something, I'm perfectly happy with that. If she doesn't die, but decides to go into hiding and leave the rebellion behind ala Obi-Wan or Yoda, I don't really have an issue with that. But I absolutely despise the idea that while the OT was going there were actually these other lightsaber wielding force users doing all this other kickass stuff for the rebellion that was totally super important and awesome but kept secret for "reasons".

 

I agree that they have do get away in some way, but not because of Yoda, but because Tarkin believes there are no "Jedi religion believers" around any more. We all know Tarkin was wrong, but he has to be convinced somehow at this point.

 

ANH features the Death Star, a threat to the whole galaxy, and it tracks down the Rebel Base on Yavin. That's big, and it's important--particularly to the heroes we're following--but in an entire galaxy that doesn't mean it's the only important thing going on.

TESB features the Rebel's having just settled into a new base (likely the latest in a succession in the 3 years since Yavin), only to have to flee again--this time, because Vader is specifically looking for Luke Skywalker...so of course that's the event we're following, and while Luke goes off to train we still follow his friends in the Falcon because they've also been established as main characters in the films and Vader thinks Skywalker is with them--and, later, that he can use them to bait a trap for Luke.

ROTJ's 1st third is about Luke & friends rescuing Han from Jabba. You can't seriously tell me that's the most important thing going on in the galaxy! It's just the most important thing going on in the lives of the heroes we're invested in. All kinds of Alliance awesomeness could be going on while Luke & Leia are, essentially, playing hooky from their responsibilities to the Rebellion. The rest, it's about an all-out assault on the Empire, but while we see the main battle, there are any number of perfectly plausible events that could happen behind the scenes to tie up any number of characters. "What of the reports of the Rebel fleet massing near Sullust?" Hey, maybe that was the Specters and Phoenix Squadron, distracting the Empire from what they think is a surprise attack. Maybe they're all injured following the acquisition of the plans that caused the deaths of many Bothans. Maybe they're saving a world suspected of Rebel ties from being BDZ'd. That'd certainly be a momentous event, important to the millions of lives on that world and worthy of the Rebel Alliance throwing some Force-using heroes at even while they plot to assassinate the Emperor.

The movies may create some illusion that we're seeing the most important stuff, but that's all it is--illusion. We're seeing the events from the perspective of a small number of characters--that is all. They're caught up in pivotal events, but that doesn't mean the rest of the galaxy, or indeed the rest of the Rebellion, is idle during those events.

 

I am so glad Tolkien never sold the rights of his works to Disney.
Can you imagine a bunch of ultra power wizards running around?

I don't want characters and their stories that I like to drown in a pool of new character that overshadow their role.

I'd rather see Luke's growth between ANH and ESB, than introduce all these force wielders that water him down.

Save more Jedi for other time periods. I'd like to see "last of the Jedi" during the purge time instead.

Is Disney trying to squeeze the money out of SW at the expense of good story telling? This is my concern about big corporations buying the rights of other people's work, its not all about creating a work of art, money is a BIG factor.
Look at the cheap animation. Is this so they can have more money? Spend less money to make bigger profit.
And are they trying to draw people in with bringing back characters?

With individuals and smaller groups, money may not be such a driving force like a big entity like Disney.
Good things can take time to do. If you rush things to start making money it may turn out bad. If you take time to come up with ideas it's better.

Are they just trying to draw in kids with cool Jedi fighting? Get kids hooked and make money off their parents plus people who will watch just cause it's Star Wars and the cheap imitation of the OT to try and attract those fans?

It's not working on this girl.

I don't want Star Wars cheapened.

 

Everything is about marketing. killing a popular character is bad for business and killing a child/teen is definitively a no-no.

 

Yes it does and that provides no support for the premise that she or any other Jedi/force user would take special notice. The entire Alliance took notice of the achievement at the end of ANH as well as Vader, as well as probably the rest of the galaxy. I don't get the point you are trying to make about why any single individual would take special notice of it. Is there some other reason that Ahsoka or another Jedi/force user should care that it was Luke Skywalker and give it special notice when it seems that the justification simply appears "Hey it's a Skywalker and they should know his name" that I am missing? He didn't know he was the son of the Chosen One or that his father was Vader or that his father marched into the Jedi Temple with the 501st and slaughtered all the Jedi (that we are aware of) destroying what was the Jedi Order. The assumption is that Ahsoka (if alive) or another Jedi/force user during this time would recognize or know of the connection to Anakin Skywalker.

If we go by the logic of some of the other points being tossed around here and choose to pick on Leia for a second, if she knew of Kenobi as having been a General in the Clone Wars why wouldn't she be knowledgeable of Anakin Skywalker as having been a padawan to Kenobi and make the connection to Luke Skywalker?

Yet Lando was given control of the battle group to assault the Death Star II and the rank of General for a battle that merely warranted mention in passing before the briefing in ROTJ. I don't see how any of this isn't within the realm of possibility. She operated at Fulcrum in seeming anonymity until now in Rebels. While an important role, I don't really see why something like this would need to be mentioned in the OT. You can still have some of the most important moments of the Galactic Civil War occur on screen in the OT, but you also need to realize that we are only getting a portion of the story in the overall war. There is plenty of room and gaps in the story to tell other stories for events that happen during the same time period.

To draw a comparison to real world stories being told from different view points, The Pacific and Band of Brothers are both from WWII, but are in two very different theaters of war.

To be completely frank, we really only saw Luke's story as it pertained to events occurring in the OT. To assume that everything that happened to Luke was automatically the most important events of the War is a bit of a narrow view.

To quote Toonimator:

I seem to have struck a nerve regarding mentioning that she (or any other Jedi/force users) were never mentioned explicitly in the OT. However, see above.

 

I don't like money determining what happens to a character, which is part of why I think some things are better not owned by big corporations like Disney. Sure, we may get more material, but what will the quality be?

An individual author, has the freedom to write what they want and can be creative. Writers under Disney don't necessary have that. Plus deadline can cause things to be rushed.

 

At the risk of starting a flame war, I saw what Lucas can do by his own hand in regards to the PT in regards to story and directing. It wasn't the best work he has ever done (ESB and ROTJ weren't written completely by him, and were definitely not directed by him). Sometimes the visionary loses the ability to adequately convey the story or the story becomes stale/repetitive/circular.

End of observation/comment.

 

Recent episodes have shown that Yoda is more aware of galactic events than i first thought during his isolation. He is able to communicate and feel things over galaxy spanning distances. He felt the deaths of fellow Jedi masters during Order 66. I'm pretty convinced that if there were other Jedi or powerful force users around he may have felt their presence around ROTJ. Obi wan said that beyond Luke there was no hope. The OT always gave the feeling that the survival of its traditions and teachings rested squarely on the shoulders of the Skywalker twins. Now we see possible lightsaber wielding survivors popping up left and right.

Since the Jedi order ceased to exist, where does "being a Jedi" really begin? Who is in the right to tell another that he is a Jedi? Doesn't Kanan, who was trained by Depa Billaba, qualify in the least bit? Or Ahsoka? They all are familiar with it's ways before it vanished.

It's funny, but force users who are on the dark path (but not associated to the Sith) usually are referred to as dark jedi. I'm not familiar with any term that describes light side users who operated outside the established order. But to conclude this, i still think it makes sense if Jedi are almost non existent or completely wiped out atleast by the time ROTJ comes around. Even before Tarkin seemed pretty convinced that they were extinct, and that was after meeting Kanan who defeated an Inquisitor, you don't need more proof that he is atleast at the knight level.

If we are to respect Yoda's words and stay true to them... Some characters have to die, sorry kids.

 

jabberwalkie I see your point. I am disappointed with repetitiveness in ROTJ and other things in the OT and PT, but I did like some parts.
Lucas may not have been alone in creating Star wars, but it's different than being owned by a big corporation.
He had more freedom in his creativity and came up with some nice ideas and not so nice, but Disney may do worse.

 

So you've never seen anyone meet someone with the same last name of someone they know and ask, "Hey, are you related to so and so?" As for Leia, maybe she did, why would it matter if she did or didn't? At that point it would have no affect on the story.

Tell me this. If you were Ashoka, and you hear about a young kid about 20 years old by the name of Skywalker just destroyed the Death Star after saving Princess Leia with the help of Kenobi and a smuggler named Solo, would your interest not be peaked?

 

Whether I have or not is immaterial (but yes I have) as we are talking about canon events in Star Wars, and it is a big galaxy. It matters a great deal actually because she should have been the first one in the rebel alliance to put it together after meeting him on the Death Star as he used his full name. Given that she knows some of the back story of Kenobi, she should have some cursory knowledge regarding who else was involved in the Clone Wars. Seeing as how Anakin was the chosen one, his name should have at least come up in discussions of the Clone Wars. Luke is the legacy of a Jedi, and they ended up losing Kenobi at the Death Star to Vader. This isn't to have an affect on the story?



Again you can pass this off on Lucas retcon once he rewrote the history of Darth Vader for ESB to be Luke's father, as well as introducing the prequels, and in part due to events in TCW.

 

Wow... cheap animation? Geez. Learn about what you're talking about before going around calling it "cheap". The only cheapness in the show, really, is that they limited the locations and have a limited number of extras available to use--TCW didn't have a ton of extras when it started, either, and it often became immediately apparent when they had new assets to play with; when Duchess Satine had an attempt on her life on Coruscant, I think, Ithorians were appearing around every corner.

Other Jedi don't water down Luke's arc. You're just focusing too much on him being "last of the Jedi"... he's one of few remaining in the galaxy--not just a town, or a country, or a continent or planet--the entire galaxy. He doesn't need to be the absolute last to be important. His importance is as the offspring of the Chosen One.

Having other Jedi running around isn't the equivalent of having multiple wizards running around Middle Earth (tho, really, there were... Radagast was off musing over animals & plants, Saruman was aiding the Enemy, and the two Blue Istari were off in the east doing who knows what)--it's more the equivalent of having multiple Dunedain Rangers in the North in addition to Aragorn, Isildur's Heir. Aragorn wasn't the last of the line of Numenor--he was just the last in line to the throne of Gondor. Other Dunedain were still long-lived, great warriors, etc--but they weren't necessary to Gandalf's plans or the journey of the Ring in LOTR, so we didn't really deal with them. Other Jedi in SW during the Rebels/OT era aren't necessary to the plans of Yoda & Obi-Wan for the children of Anakin and the downfall of the Sith, so they weren't mentioned in the OT. Luke's destiny was to face Vader and defeat the Sith--that isn't the destiny of Ahsoka, Ezra, Kanan, or any other Force-user they might encounter over the course of the series. They aren't destined to train Luke. Yoda and Obi-Wan have a plan... the offspring of Anakin are the key to it. Other Jedi do not diminish their importance.

Yoda sensed the deaths during Order 66 because they were so sudden and in such rapid succession... hundreds of Jedi dying across the galaxy within moments of each other, causing a great disturbance in the Force. That doesn't mean he can sense any & every Force-user wherever they are... he didn't notice Kanan until halfway into the season, or at least didn't contact Kanan until he & Ezra entered a Jedi Outpost. Yoda said he couldn't see Kanan before--Kanan embracing his Jedi upbringing and taking an apprentice changed things, so now he can sense them, tho it seems they'd still need to be in a place of power for communication to happen. Had Kanan stayed a drifter, like he'd been for most of the previous 15 years, Yoda may have gone right on not sensing him. Same could apply to any number of other survivors; active ones, like Ahsoka, he may be able to sense--but we still don't know if he even knows Ahsoka's still alive out there. Yoda isn't all-seeing, all-knowing, nor is he remotely infallible. TCW helped prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Obi-Wan saying that beyond Luke there was no hope isn't about the future of the Jedi, exactly... it's about defeating the Sith. Obi-Wan & Yoda put all their hope in Luke, the offspring of Anakin. Only a child of the Chosen One could have the power necessary to stand up to Vader and Palpatine...but it turns out, as we all know, it was Luke's faith in the good within his father that won the day. His Jedi training helped him resist falling to the dark side (and the pause to reflect offered by Palpatine's laughing interruption), but it's not his Jedi-ness that defeated the Sith, it's his blood. Only Luke could defeat the Sith, because only Luke is Vader's son.

As for lightsaber wielders popping up left and right, that's a bit hyperbolic. Even in the old EU, where there were lots of survivors, it really only amounts to a tiny number compared to how many Jedi were alive before Order 66, let alone stacked against the population of the entire galaxy.

How many do we have right now? Ezra, Kanan, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. 5 that we know of, for sure. How many people live on Coruscant? About 1,000,000,000,000 people, give or take (granted, that's according to the EU), just on that one planet. Even out of 8,000, 5 isn't significant.

5 is nothing. If you count them all as "Jedi", in terms of 'leftovers of the Jedi Order', 5 is absolutely still "all but extinct", to use Obi-Wan's words. Even 50 would still be "all but extinct".

...and if Yoda called out to Ahsoka and said "In my hands, his fate is", would she not maybe listen and trust him on it? Maybe he'll have some other task for her. Maybe he'll fill her in on relevant information, but impress upon her that while the Rebellion is doing important work, while her powers are being put to good use aiding them, everything rests on Luke and he doesn't want to risk Luke's development going awry.

 

I didn't say anything about Aragorn being the only one with the blood of Numenor . It runs through Faramir and Denethor as well, I was talking about if they had multiple characters like Aragorn, which would diminish his role let's say if he had multiple brothers.

Yes I know Gandalf wasn't the only wizard, there is five, I was talking about if they basically turned into a bunch of over powered potters running around.

My point I am trying to convey is "Too many "cool" characters basically drowning out the story".
Why not have new Jedi distanced from it?


I don't want a bunch of force users. I like the situation to be more desperate. I guess I like darker stories, where it's a struggle for the character, I like before they get the victory.

Having a bunch of Jedi and stupid stormtroopers doesn't make the situation more desperate. I think it waters the story down. Besides in my mind, why would Vader and the Emperor be concerned with Luke who has barely any training when there is others stronger?

I suppose this goes down to what people's favorite characters are. We aren't all going to agree on what betters SW. Some like new characters, I tend not to when I already have characters I like and others take up space.
This is just how I feel about the whole Jedi thing. To me I feel this ruins star wars, to others it doesn't.

This applies to other stories and not just Star Wars, but I don't like having way to many "cool/interesting/powerful etc" characters focused on.

 

Star Wars is bigger than the movies now... and as such, the other ways in which its stories are told need "cool/interesting/powerful" characters to focus on, since you can't just focus on the movie characters all the time. Marvel is focusing on the main movie heroes in their comics, and while they start off with a Vader/Luke confrontation, they must know they can't always have it be Vader/Luke or that would diminish the movies somewhat. Rebels obviously can't focus solely on Luke, or we'd all be yawning at his weekly 'adventures' in trying to get out of doing chores and hopelessly attempting to fit in with the 'cool kids' of Anchorhead.

If other media, like Rebels, didn't focus on newer "cool/interesting/powerful" characters, what's left? "Ice Cream Maker: The Adventures of Willrow Hood"? Come on.

The situation is still desperate. You're not thinking of scale... but most of all, you're willfully ignoring Luke's importance as heir to the Chosen One. That's why they are more concerned with him... he's the "son of Skywalker". He is, as Lucas says, 'the most powerful Jedi ever', so naturally they don't want him to become a Jedi. He's the only one who could destroy them... other Jedi are a nuisance, but while they can cause problems, none of them could destroy the Sith.

 

Toonimator

Just to add, the plot of Star Wars has been inextricably linked to not only the force but the Sith and Jedi as the agents of it, since the beginning. To deny their importance to the Star Wars Universe would be to deny what also makes the franchise unique. Granted the main character for a series or movie in the franchise may not always be a Jedi, but they will more than likely be associated heavily with the story.

 

I do like having force users most of my favorite characters are including Luke, but I don't want a bunch of others.

If we do get more Jedi, I'd rather have another story that is not connected with the founding of the rebellion.

I want there to be distance between some characters and not them so close, give them space.

Example : I find Ventress's story interesting, but don't want her in ANH or I am interested in Obi-wan as a Jedi pre TPM and TCW, but don't want to see him around fighting a bunch of battles 14 years later, his time has passed.

I don't want all there character's bunched up together like a super smash brothers game.

Also having these Jedi fighting in the rebellion takes away from the tragedy of Order 66 and the purges.

I'd rather see surviving Jedi resisting the Empire not much longer than 5 years after ROTS.

With the hobbit and lotr it was nice seeing new characters, they were not all bunched up together, there was some space and they didn't diminish each other's role.

In the PT and OT kind of the same thing. We didn't have all the character's bunched up diminishing each other's role.

In we are going to get more Jedi main character an all new story pre TPM that isn't all connected with the OT and PT might be the way to go.

 

There needs to be a balance of Force-users and non Force-users.
There needs to be a time and place for the Jedi. Pre-ROTS is acceptable for obvious reasons. Jedi still being around the first couple years after ROTS is understandable. A couple years before the OT? The less Jedi, the better imo. The ST should not have PT era numbers of Jedi. There should be more Jedi than there were in the OT but not thousands. No thousands of Jedi until centuries later.

 

Again, in this "couple years before OT" era we only have three Jedi-types. That's not even 1% of the Jedi Order pre-Order 66. That's not even 0.1%.

They may be involved in the founding of the Rebellion, but they're not the reason for the Rebellion... it's still Bail and his like-minded Senate buddies who were concerned over Palpatine's increasing political powers before the rise of the Empire that get the ball rolling. And it's a rebellion that will span the galaxy, leading to a Galactic Civil War. Looking at the American Civil War, both sides had many generals commanding armies, and not all are well-known to most people. Perfectly reasonable to think that Bail, Leia, Mon Mothma, Dodonna, Ackbar, etc take the spotlight in 'history' as well as among the members of the Alliance themselves over the lady that has magic powers that make her an above-average pilot and jump a little higher than your average Mandalorian teen and move some stuff with her mind.

There's this strange tendency for people to still make Jedi into far greater "superheroes" than they really are... we saw Jedi get taken out like absolute noobs in the movies. Some of those in the Geonosis Arena were like those people in multiplayer FPS games running in circles with their camera/gun pointed at the ground. While our heroes in Rebels are anything but that, they still aren't so amazing that they'd be able to waltz into the Death Star, manually set the self-destruct, and take their time escaping. They can't storm the Imperial Palace of Coruscant and take down Palpatine, even as a group.

There is room for Force-using heroes in this era, without overshadowing Luke, because--again, for the umpteenth time--Luke's importance is as Anakin's heir, and no other Jedi can take that from him...not even Snips.

Also, Jedi fighting in the Rebellion doesn't take away from Order 66 and the purges... it makes sense that some survivors would be glad of the opportunity to fight back, to be part of something again now that the Jedi Order is gone, to try to restore democracy and defend the oppressed.

 

A flood of Jedi in the OT era only proves the incompetence of the storytellers. Why is it impossible to tell a good story about "the rebellion" without having a bunch of Jedi running around? Why do we need endless lightsaber battling and master/padawan stuff in an era in which Jedi shouldn't play a role? Why is it hard to just tell the story of the people rebelling against an oppressive Empire? Is there really not enough meat to this that we need Jedi ... again? Is the mark of a good Star Wars story how many lightbulbs they wave around and whether the protagonists can break the necks of their opponents with magic? Is it not about the plot, the characters, the heart of the story? Have we fans become so superficial that we can't accept a story without a bunch of Jedi? Is that why they put Jedi into everything, even eras in which they don't belong? What about smugglers, bounty hunters, pilots and so on? Why don't they get to stand in the lime light, at least this once, in the era when the Jedi are supposed to be weak? What good reason is there to put so many Jedi into this era? Why didn't we get the show about pilots that Filoni was talking about? Executive meddling?

 

By having Ahsoka use white lightsabers, Filoni said it symbolise her neutrality (neither light nor dark) and no longer being a Jedi. The get-out-of-jail card is, yes, we're seeing former Jedi but their no longer technically Jedi because they've abandoned the old Order.

 

This talk about cheapening Star Wars is amusing to me. The Holiday Special exists after all. If you wanna talk about cheapening SW, it's been that way since 1978.