Finally the Vader vs Maul debate is laid to rest.

If that's true, I hate ILM

Obi-Wan hadn't been fighting for 19 years, but Dooku was an active Force user. It's perfectly realistic that Dooku was more agile than Obi-Wan was at the age of 57.



The Force is pink
/LM

 

Anyone who tries to blurt out the one liner "Vader would foRrCe cHoKe!!@@@!!!@11!!" bascially does not have time to provide a thought provoking argument for his case.

In case these people have not seen the Star Wars movies, let me just reiterate that dark side or non-dark side powers do not work on someone well trained in the force. This is why Obi-Wan and Yoda are unaffected by Dooku's force Lightning. This is why in the duels they do not force push each other silly; Maul was able to do so to Obi Wan at the end of their duel because Obi-Wan lost focus and was giving in to the dark side (anger agression), just like Anakin fell prey to Dooku's lighting in the same way. Its up on the databank as well.

Thus,s ice vaders force choke is obviously much weaker than lightning, which is the favored power of the meperor, I think its obivous force choke cannot be used in a duel with a trained force user. Else, why did Vader not use it against Luke? Vader got OWNED by a padawan that had been trained for a mere few MONTHS. This is because he was old, half crippled, and lost most of his power, just like LUCAS says in the commentary.

 

While Vader may be limited in the physical sense against someone like Maul, his mastery of the Force is unmatched by anyone in the saga. That, in my eyes, gives him an enormous advantage over anyone.

 

If Vader wasn't in that suit he could kick Mauls butt.

 

Ok lets completely discount force power here. Maul would crush Vader in strictly a saber duel.

 

Yeah Darth Maul was like a whirling
dervish with a twin-beamed laser sword.

 

I posted this in the thread that got locked:

Have any of you ever read STAR WARS Tales?

The addressed this issue specifically.

Maul had Vader on the ropes, constantly throwing insults at him about him being a jedi and still being having a spark of light.

Oh!

I'll go get it and quote it!

hold up...

Here, I'll just tell the whole story...

STAR WARS
T A L E S
[issue 9]

64 pages
Featuring Darth Vader and Darth Maul in a duel to the death! [great cover art]

Ok, so Vader and some storm troopers land on this darg world lit up by fire in the sky. They are there because they believe this ancient [sith] temple is a rebel base [which contains stolen plans, presumably to the DS]. He splits the storm toopers into two groups, one to enter the temple with him, and a larger one to patrol the foggy area surrounding it.

We see the storm troopers outside methodically offed one by one by a red lightsaber.

Meanwhile, Vader enters into the temple, which we learned it was a fortress built by a politician and a group of followers who believed that world was the focul point of the dark side. They practice sith magick until the guy goes crazy and kill them all.

Anyways, Vader is walking with his two troopers who are jabbering away about the history when they are force choked to death. They think it's Vader, but he did nothing. He then finds three figures clothed in black, claiming he is not worthy for his master. "We deem you worthy because of who you once were... Anakin Skywalker."

Vader is outraged and swings his blade at the three alchemists as he says, "How dare you?! You bring this upon yourselves!", only for it to be blocked by another red blade. He turns to see "Darth MAUL?"

They explain to Vader how there are ways of bringin those who are no more back into existence. They believe they have ressurected a worthy apprentice for "the master."

They want him to duel Maul to the death, but Darth Vader basically says, screw it. I'll just kill you right now, but they counter that with the 'it'll always eat at you and make you wonder if you could beat him blah blah blah.' So, Vader pauses. Then they say this: [I love this line]

"Will you face him?"

"I will kill him."

Then they fight. Maul kicks Vader in the face near off the bat. Vader exclaims, "Maul is dead! You are a sham!"

"No. You are the sham. Jedi.I can see it in you still... A lone light in the darkness you refuse to extinguish. Not like me. My darkness... My hatred... is unending."

They fight some more and go deeper into the fortress [they are in a giant room with lava flowign at the bottom. They are high above it.]

Vader: "I don't need help to destroy an imposter. [after he used the dead storm troopers to shoot maul and maul threw them into the lava and said they won't help him]"

"It's you who wears the mask... You who hides his unworthiness. Tell me.. *smack him in the face* which of us is truly an imposter?"

They manage to get onto a bridge hung by wires over the lava. Maul says, "Surprising, Jedi. You stand your ground against me. I wonder.. *cuts a cable* are you as confident... *cuts cable* when you can't depend on... *they fall* teh ground beneath you?"

*Vader grabs cable and breaks his fall*

"You land with Grace, Jedi. Did you leanr nothing from the master? 'Never break a fall. If you are prepared to break your fall, you are prepared for the fall itself. Sith do not fall. There is no pain where strength lies.'"

Now they are throwing blows as they meet each other in mid air over the lava. Running up the sides of the wall and jumping from rock to rock as Maul says "follow me... if you can." So, Vader chases him and then they meet in mid air again.

They find their way back onto a platform and Maul cuts Vader in the stomach, spewing sparks everywhere. "Come to me," Maul says as he motions to Vader. "We'll finish this."

"Yes... We'll finish this."

"How can you be a fit servant for the master? You're more machine *blocks blow* than man *block blow* How can a machin

 

Maul would win. Maul has all the moves. He took on Qui Gon Jinn AND Obi-Wan and should have one. Obi-Wan's win was a fluke. 9/10 Maul wins that. Just like 9/10 the Rams beat the Pats. But still how could anyone know if Maul is powerful in the force? Vadar is a hunk of medal. He's stiff and not good at dueling. Maul is a beast. The fight I really wanna to see is Maul vs. Windu that would be SO AWESOME.

 

Maul should've beat Obi, but Vader is too powerful.

I don't think he is slowed down by the metal, either.

He can move around fine. Just cause we never see him do flips or run around or anything in the OT, doesn't mean he can't.

 

Vader is a master swordsman, of that we should have no doubt. And he is strong in the Force, but do keep in mind a couple of key things while determining lightsaber duels.

1.) There is no separation between "Force Mastery" and swinging your lightsaber. There are no "Fireball Wizards" in the Star Wars galaxy. This is not Dungeon's and Dragons folks... Emperor Palpatine kicks just as much butt with his lightsaber as he does with his force powers... so don't separate the two.

2.) Physical ability unfortuante does play a factor in everything. Your physical body determines what you can do with the Force physically. Luminous beings indeed we are folks, but Yoda said nothing about us ignoring our crude matter. Listen to Yoda, but don't pretend he was talking about everything. As Lucas established in the PT, despite our luminous connections, we are still trapped inside of our physical manifestations. Though you may accomplish more with the luminous philosophy, that "more" has nothing to do with combat.


Maul was a very powerful Sith. Yes, Dooku was even better, but Maul defeated a Jedi Master and his padawan in his early twenties! That's something so many people take forgranted. Maul was at the top of his game. It was his arrogance that destroyed him ultimately.

Darth Vader may be the master swordsman in this situation, but Maul still has his whole body for the fight. Force attacks won't work... Obi-Wan already demonstrates to us that "weaker" Jedi can nullify the powers of stronger Sith rather handily. So no, Vader won't be throwing objects and choking people. That happened to Luke for a reason... Luke wasn't that powerful at the time.

People always discredit Maul, saying his flips and acrobatics are an immediate discredit to his skill. They like to flaunt the now old and cliched lines about what real fighters are and that acrobatics are a sign of lesser skills. In real life, this applies (sometimes).

In a movie, it does not. Maul also exhibits skills that go behind "whirly twirly," but people handily ignore these aspects and pretend he's just a spinning sword. There were plenty of moments in which Maul deflects and threw his Jedi opponents around. Yes, it was flashy, but that was just the choreography chosen. He's was an extremely agile Sith.

Also note that he engages his opponents differently in each situation. On the deserts of Tatooine, Maul's onslaught of Jinn was a far cry from the twirling menace we witnessed on Naboo. When he went solo against Jinn, he drove a powerful attack.

Against Jinn again on Naboo, finally cut off from Obi-Wan, Maul goes on the defensive, allowing the Jedi Master to tire himself out. Maul locks Jinn into a repetitive pattern, quickly reinvigorates himself for a fake and follows that with a finishing move. I don't recall Maul defeating Jinn with the "whirly twirl flips" that time either.

So stop pretending and hating on Maul's character. He wasn't a "show-off" fighter. It was just "show-off" choreography. But the moments Maul strikes his finishing blows on both Jedi opponents were moments when the flash was missing. Even the defeat of Obi-Wan is colored not by some flip kick maneuver, but a moment where he once again allowed the opponent to press the offensive... but when an opening came he took it and won.

...hm, sounds very much like the strategy everyone claims Darth Vader would use. I think the Infinities comic got it right... Vader would be hard-pressed against a fully-trained Darth Maul. He was very powerful. He's just very dead too. But people like to play games of "absolutes" and claim death is everything. And it's not. Maul lost, but like someone said many pages back, you only get one chance to prove yourself. If Maul had gotten a "do over," Obi-Wan would be one dead man.

However, I would not have ended the comic with a trick stab. I would have let Vader win by sheer experience and will of the Force. Vader is more powerful after all... just debilitated. It would be a close fight though.

And one final note. Sto

 

Vader would lose, Anakin would win.

 

But Vader is more powerful than Anakin...

so how does that work?

 

he's more physically capable

 

I don't think so.

Also, if you consider Anakin Vader when he becomes a Sith w/o the suit, then that's even further from the truth.

Like I said, we never SEE Vader run around, etc., but that doesn't mean he couldn't.

He just doesn't need to.

 

It's a pretty tough call to make. Without taking The Force into consideration, there is no question that Maul is faster, with a double edged weapon, who also brings powerful kicks into his arsenal. Vader is strong, with much longer reach, and has the advantage of a largely robotic body (he can sacrifice a limb if necessary). As for using The Force, we know that both of them can hurl objects, but Vader has the ability to choke another person, although he may not be able to do it while fending off lightning fast blows from Maul. Neither of them is at the Sith Lightning level yet.

I think people give Vader too much credit. He is not so powerful. Anakin had POTENTIAL to be powerful, and that is what Qui-Gon saw in him. Vader might look cool, and be intimidating, but let's face it, he is a bully and a coward. Anakin is a great fencer, but nothing special when compared to Obi-Wan, Maul, Dooku, Qui-Gon, Yoda, and Mace Windu. He will probably be better in Episode 3 (speculation, not spoiling), but he does the majority of his killing with the aid of Sidious and the Imperial Army.

The same can be said for Maul. He is intimidating, ferocious, and aggressive. However, whereas Vader's handicap is his destroyed body, Maul's handicap is his rage and overconfidence.

 

How is Vader a coward?

Come to think of it, how is he a bully?

 

^^^A bully because he force chokes people he doesn't like.

A coward because he can't kill his son.

Basically he looks cool, hes metal, he strong in the force, and he bullys dudes around but when the time comes to do the job he chickens out.

Maul is an overconfident nut-case, but he has all the moves, is strong in the force, he will fight to the death, he could never be turned, and he get the job done. He one of the coolest character Lucas ever wrote.

and the only reason some people even think Vadar could win is because he was in the OT. Sith win WITH overconfidence and fearlessness. A mind set of Im going to win, no matter what. Only Jedi hold back. That why Maul would win.

(Im talking about Vadar in the suit, Vadar w/o the suit would be an awesome fight which he would win.)

 

^^^A bully because he force chokes people he doesn't like.

Brutish, yes, bully...ehhh, I don't know if I think he's quite that by the way you're defining it. Vader doesn't kill people just because he doesn't like them. Vader kills people because they prove themselves incompetent, fail him in some measure or another, cross/betray/attempt to usurp him, or because he's following orders from the emperor.


A coward because he can't kill his son.

Actually, I think that statement is backwards. Vader would be a coward to kill his son. He was a coward to turn to the dark side, to allow his personal fears and inner selfishness to override his concern for other people's needs. And he would have remained a coward to keep relying on the dark side and the emperor rather than finding the strength in himself to save Luke and, well, save himself.

Additionally, for all the "not doing the job" that you claim him to do, he sure didn't hesitate to maim, corner, and generally brutalize Luke in ESB (argue it all you want, Vader was just playing with him at Bespin, he could have killed him at any time), and he was running fairly strong in ROTJ. Vader lost in ROTJ because Luke overpowered him. Simple as that.

 

A coward because he can't kill his son.

That took bravery, not cowardice. If anything, he's been a coward for not standing up to Palps long before that.

He got electricuted and died BECAUSE he saved him. He knew he was taking a risk. If he had let Palps kill him, he would have lived.

ALso, he wasn't the one who was killing him. That wasn't his job. His job was to GET killed.

 

^^^he didn't die from force lightning. He died from returning to the Light side. The Dark Side was the only thing keeping him alive. Watch the ROTS trailer "The Dark Side of the force can (I forget the middle) unlock power that some believe to be unnatural."

(Quote)"Brutish, yes, bully...ehhh, I don't know if I think he's quite that by the way you're defining it. Vader doesn't kill people just because he doesn't like them. Vader kills people because they prove themselves incompetent, fail him in some measure or another, cross/betray/attempt to usurp him, or because he's following orders from the emperor."

(Answer)Watch ESB again. He uses bully tactics by striking fear into his admerials and killing them if they mess up a little. And what about the orders he gives out like "Get me my ship!" in ANH and "Get me a bagel!" (HAHA) I guess your right hes more brutish than bullyish. I should choose my words better.

(Quote)"Additionally, for all the "not doing the job" that you claim him to do, he sure didn't hesitate to maim, corner, and generally brutalize Luke in ESB (argue it all you want, Vader was just playing with him at Bespin, he could have killed him at any time), and he was running fairly strong in ROTJ. Vader lost in ROTJ because Luke overpowered him. Simple as that."

(Answer)Vadar failed in ANH: You remember the Death Star right?

He failed in ESB: Luke got away "NO! Thats impossible!!!"

And he failed in ROTJ: He was slayed by Luke. A Jedi who had a year and a few months worth of training. Hes SOOOOO....OOOOO...OOOO powerful.

I think that constitutes not getting the job done.

 

He failed in ESB: Luke got away "NO! Thats impossible!!!"

No. Remember, Palps wants to kill him, but Vader says, "but if he could be turned to the dark side." So, his number one priority was turning him. He planted the seeds. Matter of fact, he almost succeeded with the aid of Palps in ROTJ.

And he failed in ROTJ: He was slayed by Luke.

He was not slain by Luke. Luke beat the crap out of him, but he didn't kill him. He weakened him.

A Jedi who had a year and a few months worth of training. Hes SOOOOO....OOOOO...OOOO powerful.

Ya, did you see how he beat Vader? Not with the force, not with skills, he frickin hacke dat him five times WHILE Vader was down [dirty fighter ] and finally hit his mark. The only reason he was even able to do THAT was cause he was frickin angry and tapping into the dark side. Luke is by far the worst saber duelist ever. No skill. at all.

I think that constitutes not getting the job done.

No. It really doesn't. His job was to plant the seeds of the dark side [he succeeds], bring him to Palps [he succeeds], and either turn luke or be killed [he succeeds][probably both].

 

"No. Remember, Palps wants to kill him, but Vader says, "but if he could be turned to the dark side." So, his number one priority was turning him. He planted the seeds. Matter of fact, he almost succeeded with the aid of Palps in ROTJ."

Vadar was supposed to bring Luke back to the Emporer. NOT plant a seed, he failed.

"He was not slain by Luke. Luke beat the crap out of him, but he didn't kill him. He weakened him."

I was being figurative, Like Luke KILLED him in the fight. He got his butt kicked. He failed.

"Ya, did you see how he beat Vader? Not with the force, not with skills, he frickin hacke dat him five times WHILE Vader was down [dirty fighter ] and finally hit his mark. The only reason he was even able to do THAT was cause he was frickin angry and tapping into the dark side. Luke is by far the worst saber duelist ever. No skill. at all."

Luke has no skill and he tapped into the Dark Side. hmmmmm.... So he tapped into the Dark Side without the force. He has No skill yet he beat Vadar. So what does that say about Vadar? A fellow dark side user. It says he wasn't a good fighter. (and to bring all of this full circle) Maul would win.

 

^^^he didn't die from force lightning. He died from returning to the Light side. The Dark Side was the only thing keeping him alive. Watch the ROTS trailer "The Dark Side of the force can (I forget the middle) unlock power that some believe to be unnatural."

Talk about misconstruing a statement. Palpatine is trying to turn Anakin to the dark side. He's going to use any tactics necessary to do so. Since I can't give away the spoiler of exactly what Palpatine is referring to, I can well enough guess that it in no way proclaims one way or another what was keeping Vader alive. Until further notice, the force lightning killed Vader. Period. End of story.



Watch ESB again. He uses bully tactics by striking fear into his admerials and killing them if they mess up a little.

Mess up a little? Ozzel lost their entire advantage of surprise! That is not a little mistake. That is a major military tactical error. Needa lost sight of a ship that was perfectly within the Empire's grasp that they had been chasing for months, leaving Vader to rely on bounty hunters. Vader found their performances to be substandard, so he removed them from the hiearchy. Command rank within the Empire comes with that knowledge that your superiors are not forgiving should you screw up. That is the risk they take for their power. It's a trade off they are well aware of from observation and experience, and they should be prepared to face should they fail.

And I never said Vader didn't bully, but he's not at the petty level you place him at. You stated that Vader killed people that he didn't like. That is incorrect. Darth Vader kills people for a reason. He is a not a sadistic psychopath who just force chokes for the heck of it.


And what about the orders he gives out like "Get me my ship!" in ANH and "Get me a bagel!" (HAHA) I guess your right hes more brutish than bullyish. I should choose my words better.

He's the boss. That's the priviledges of being in top rank. People serve *you.*



(Answer)Vadar failed in ANH: You remember the Death Star right?

The Death Star was more Tarkin's fault than Vader's. He went out there as a last ditch effort when he sensed that the Rebels had a strategy. Vader warned them about the threat of the Rebels, and the Moffs refused to listen. It was Tarkin's arrogance that led to the downfall of the Death Star. And more importantly, the will of the Force was on Luke's side. Which actually makes Vader correct - the DS was no match for the power of the Force.


He failed in ESB: Luke got away "NO! Thats impossible!!!"

Vader's objective was not to kill Luke but capture and convert him. He led Luke on up until the last moment, even managed to plan ahead to shut down the Falcon's hypderdrive. Luke escaped as a matter of variables outside of Vader's control.


And he failed in ROTJ: He was slayed by Luke. A Jedi who had a year and a few months worth of training. Hes SOOOOO....OOOOO...OOOO powerful.

To slay somebody is to kill them. Luke did not kill Vader. He temporarily overpowered and defeated him...in a closed space...after taking Vader by surprise.

Yes, Luke is more powerful than Vader in ROTJ due to Vader's debilitated state. But Luke is no normal Jedi - he's the Chosen One's own son, someone who's almost as powerful as Anakin used to be. He's no "mere Padawan." The Skywalkers are Force anomalies; most other Jedi would have likely lost.

Additionally, as far as Vader's objectives were in that scene, they were fairly muddled. One side of him wants to fulfill his promise to the dark side and convert Luke. The other half has been touched by Luke's plea to his conscience, and now the part of him that is Anakin is wrestling to be free. The only way Vader could have completely lost is if he had allowed Palpatine to kill Luke. Then he would have been a failure as both a father and a man.

 

"Talk about misconstruing a statement. Palpatine is trying to turn Anakin to the dark side. He's going to use any tactics necessary to do so. Since I can't give away the spoiler of exactly what Palpatine is referring to, I can well enough guess that it in no way proclaims one way or another what was keeping Vader alive. Until further notice, the force lightning killed Vader. Period. End of story."

I disagree, Vadar was killed by going to the light side. He keeps himself alive with the darkside. Just as Vadar does in the suit. and as for my comment about watching the trailer, that is just an example.

As for ESB I already said he was supposed to take Luke to the Emporer. He got away so Vadar failed.

In ANH whether or not Tarkin was to blame. Vadar was "In Charge" as you put so it was his failer. The blame was on his shoulders. He failed.

EDIT: fixed spelling

 

Anakin failed as a Jedi, and he failed as a Sith. He strongarmed everyone around him, except for those he feared. He couldn't tell Sidious about his son, which is a noble thing. However, as a Sith, it just doesn't fly. Even as a Sith, he is still bound by his attachments. He may have been justified in killing Ozzel, perhaps Needa, but he just outright bullied Lando. He had the potential to be the greatest Jedi ever, but he couldn't keep his temper or follow the guidance of others. He took the shortcut, killed all those weaker than him, and prostrated himself before those he feared. That's a coward and a bully.