ST Finn is/was NOT 'a janitor.'

L

Rey's "subversion" is merely bad writing that overpowers her.

 

The reason Finn is such a big deal, the reason for all the fuss, is that unlike Mace Windu, Finn is a central character. Unlike Lando, Finn gets to wield a lightsaber and – hopefully – be a Jedi. Finn is the first 'I'm black, deal with it' character in SW, and unfortunately, yes, it creates a little 'fuss.' Finn isn't content to just mind his place at the back of the bus. Like Luke, he's on a hero's journey. He is confrontational, daring us to 'get used to it.' There has never been a character like Finn (or Rey), and some people clearly can't handle it.

I am shocked and dismayed to the point that I very nearly broke down crying real tears to see all the posters here talking about, 'So he's a janitor, what's the big deal? Luke was a farm boy; Anakin was a slave.'

It's very similar to the ongoing conversation that says 'Rey is so powerful that there MUST be a writing problem, because it just seems totally "improbable" and "implausible" that there could be great storytelling that makes all of that work. I mean, she seems more powerful than Luke or Anakin for midichlorians' sake!

The reason it matters for Rey to be so powerful is exactly, precisely because of how immediately unacceptable it is to some fans, and how many of those fans cannot see how strange a reaction like that is in the SW universe. To be completely honest, before the film came out, I felt it was very important, from a cultural impact perspective, that Finn be THE Jedi in this movie. Seeing what's happening with Rey, though, has reminded me that we have never seen a tough female Jedi specifically named on-screen, only in animated series. We have never seen a female Jedi speak with power and authority among males at the Council.

I thought that after Lara Croft, Sydney Bristow, Buffy Summers, Katniss Everdeen and so many other awesome, powerful, popular, franchise-carrying female characters, it was really a moot point. And yes, I notice none of them are black. In fact, none of them are 'not white.' And except Sydney Bristow, created by JJ Abrams, none of them get to be with a man (they all also happen to be heterosexual) who really loves them in a healthy, uncomplicated relationship. And Sydney had a pretty over-the-top rough patch on the way to that.

And you know why I've spent two paragraphs talking about Rey? Because this thread about Finn existed for a few hours before someone posted on the second page that it probably ought to be merged into another thread where it would undoubtedly disappear because this really isn't a topic about Finn, as a character. I've been trying to keep up with the 'Mary Sue' Rey thread, but it grows so quickly that I can never get to the end before it doubles in length.

There are many arguments back and forth about Rey's powers, but not a single post telling people they're being "too noisy," demanding "too much attention," explaining that they should just 'shut up and merge into invisibility.' In fact the one time there is something like that between two individuals, the complainer is actually very careful to say to the 'noisy' poster who actually was being combative, 'I hear you and this topic is worth discussing, but you sound like you're on a soapbox shouting at me, so it's hard to take you seriously.'

There was no reposting of forum guidelines and no suggestion laced with veiled threat that the mods would come 'shut it down.' There was no sense that the conversation itself should 'just go away.'

And with Rey, there's something to discuss. There's a debate to be had. If you don't have faith in the current creative team, Rey really is powerful in a way that might be distracting. I don't really think so. I think if they never explained her natural ability, I'd be just fine. But I can see a discussion to be had.

On the other hand, there is quite literally no textual basis to say 'Finn is a janitor.' Finn was not, summarily, a janitor even when he was on sanitation detail. That was never his job title or main job. Sanitation is not his skill set. It does not account for a defining part of his character or a significant amount of his time in life. And yet a not insignificant number of posters here want to reduce him to that.

And more perversely, they want to twist the conversation. They want to make it seem like the debate is between two sides: One side being those who want to see Finn as a lowly janitor who always falls on his ***, needs someone to save him, isn't a Jedi, and doesn't get the girl. On the other side are those who – using their overactive imaginations and personal agendas (an accusation not thrown at that first camp, note) – choose to be angry because Finn is portrayed as a lowly janitor and ne'er-do-well. This group feels entitled to an alpha male who is a Jedi and gets the white girl.

I'm not sure what film you saw LordoftheJawas, but I didn't think Rey's race was significant and I don't see her as a 'white chick' trophy for Finn. I see their budding romance as nearly undeniably mutual and essential to each character's arc and heart. At the very least, I cannot witness Ridley's and Boyega's performance and say that Finn's feelings for Rey are 'certainly not reciprocated.' 'Certainly?' Really? I almost just can't even… Actually, it's Christmas… I really just can't.

The reason, LordoftheJawas, for 'all the fuss' is that the two camps are not as you described. In almost precisely the same way that the 'bar' is not as clinteastwoodbradfield described. The fundamental distortion of reality is the real issue, and it is heartbreaking how difficult this is for some fans to grok.

The two camps are not:

1) Finn is a janitor, but that's okay.

2) Finn is a janitor, AND I'M PISSED!

This is NOT what it's about.

-------------------------------------

The reality distortion is:

1) I'm – for some reason which may or may not seem obvious – enjoying continuously labeling Finn as 'a janitor,' despite the fact that it is very clear on-screen that Finn was a stormtrooper even at the time he worked sanitation detail and that he has, in fact, never 'been a janitor' and the word 'janitor' does not appear in the film.

Versus the reality:

2) I'm pretty sure Finn was not 'a janitor' but actually an elite level stormtrooper in the top division before defecting and joining the Resistance, probably on his way to becoming a Jedi or the marketing for this new trilogy is grotesquely cruel and kinda evil. He apparently had a sanitation detail at Starkiller Base for some unspecified amount of time and, somewhat disturbingly, a not-insignificant number of SW fans seem hellbent on making this one throwaway line in the movie, obviously intended as a quick gag, into the summative definition of his character. They want that to be who he is. That seems very strange. I wonder why that's happening?

That's what it's about.

And you know what? I am more convinced than ever that I made the right call. This absolutely, desperately, shockingly NEEDS to be its own thread.

I'm not on a soapbox. I do have an agenda, but it's not reflected in this post or this thread. But here, let's go there:

The need to reduce Finn to 'janitor' by a, frankly, much larger number of Star Wars fans than I would ever have imagined, gets at the heart of a previous 100% my agenda/soapbox post I wrote about why it is so important that Finn must become a Jedi, take ownership of that blue lightsaber, and get the girl he so clearly is falling in love with. Because if he doesn't – if he misses even one of these things, then all the people who didn't even want him to exist, all those who want to reduce him to 'janitor' now (based on one line – one WORD!) – they can all breathe a heavy sigh of relief. 'That uppity boy didn't get the girl, he didn't get the lightsaber, he ain't no Jedi. Lookit! He ain't even a real stormtrooper! Why, that boy there "ain't nuthin' but a janitor,' to paraphrase the painfully eloquent CrazyOldJedi above, 'a ****-shoveler.'

With a one-word throwaway line, it has already begun. If Finn does not, like Rey, shine so bright that it is UNDENIABLE – like the romance that many deny – then any tiny aspect of his character that can be used to insult him, to make him small; it will be. It has already begun.

That's why this thread exists. Finn is not and was not a janitor. He was a stormtrooper. It is not an opinion or a soapbox, and the attempt to build that straw man is disgustingly insidious. And incendiary. It burns so easy, and the light of that fire only makes both the truth – and the importance of that truth – more undeniably clear.

Merry Christmas! (If that's your thing.) Or just 'May the Force be with you.'

 

He almost blew himself up handling explosives(which he did not even realize what they were), so one wonders what kinda soldier is he. In melee combat he got his butt kicked first by a fellow Stormtrooper and then later by a real Lightsaber wielder and Force user. Outside of the simulator he was green, the attack on the village was his first real combat mission. He lied about knowing more than he did about Starkiller base to get a ride there, just like he lied about being a "big deal". They lucked out when they captured the silly Captain Phasma . He was in sanitation, move along.

 

Exactly. Finn did not 'major in sanitation;' that was not ever his primary duty or definitive responsibility. In fact, that's another point of the joke, that Finn was not even fulfilling his primary role when on Starkilker Base. Your point makes my point. Finn's 'major' was being a stormtrooper. He was a stormtrooper, then kind of a Resistance fighter, probably soon to be more committed to that. And then, hopefully, along with Rey, a new kind of Jedi, the likes of which we've never seen.

 

No. If the character was Hispanic it would probably still really bother me. If the character was Korean, Chinese, or Japanese, probably not as much because in these regions – especially South Korea and Japan the native population is so ethnically homogenous as to not really have a 'racial discrimination' kind of issue.

Let's consider the United States, since Star Wars is an American product and cultural touchstone. While 'Asians' (for convenience, I know it's problematic) certainly face discrimination and lack of representation, there is not a widespread contemporary and deeply ingrained stereotype of Asian = menial laborer or 'dirty'. For blacks and Hispanics both, this stereotype is a problem.

It's interesting that you're 'sure' you know what John Boyega thinks. Do you have a quote from somewhere? Is he a personal friend of yours? I'm absolutely certain I have no galactic idea what Boyega thinks, but I'm deeply disappointed he didn't get rid of this line, and that he allowed Finn to be named by a character likely perceived by the audience to be a white man whom he just met. Deeply disappointed.

Star Wars is more than a movie, and that's just the truth. Finn matters, and making it easy for bullies and racists to take their shots by having him appear as far less heroic than the marketing led us to believe is a big deal. It matters. And yes, it matters because he's black.

 

Finn was written the way Rey should have been: as a believable person. Case closed.

 

It's never suggested – remotely – that he 'almost blew himself up,' but yeah, that was also an unfortunate exchange. Taken together, these exchanges ran a very big risk of painting Han as 'a good ole boy,' and that's also unfortunate.

Your post, though, it's exactly why this is important. You are exactly the audience I am so excited about being on Finn's hero journey with. I really, sincerely hope you enjoy the ride as much as I do. It's gonna be the stuff of legends.

 

It shouldn't matter what race he is. If he was white you would have no issue with it. This double standard is ridiculous. This is a nonissue that you're trying to make into one. Yeah, I'm pretty sure John Boyega has no problem with it because he doesn't seem like a guy that finds "racism" in every aspect of a movie. He had the courage of leaving the first order and went back to rescue Rey even though all he knew was sanitation. He had the guts that most normal people don't have. If anything that line shows how a normal person like me or you can do heroic actions, instead you're trying to twist a little line in the movie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Hm… I dunno. I doubt he thinks it's as funny as he might've before he married Mellody Hobson in 2013:

​

Lando was a little stereotypical, Mace was hard in ways demonstrated by no other Jedi except Anakin, and Jar Jar was an absolute nightmare. Maybe he'd rethink those things now, I dunno.

But it's interesting you bring up Lando. See how he's not part of the big SW reunion and nobody seems to care? I don't think that's gonna happen to Finn. And I think that's why some people wanna call him 'a janitor,' although there is no narrative basis for this summation. It doesn't matter, though. Finn's still got two more movies, and at the end of his journey, anyone who doesn't recognize him as a hero will not be able to hide behind semantics; I'm fairly confident of that.

 

All of what you said is very true, and I wish very much that we lived in a world where the line could've served exactly the functions you listed. You're right.

I also agree with you that it is an unfairly heavy burden for John Boyega and I hope he never catches wind of any of it and gets to just play Finn, the character.

Unfortunately, far, far more Star Wars fans than I would EVER have imagined in my darkest dreams are actively taking the line TO SHOW FINN AS A JANITOR, and to REDUCE his essence to just that. I understand where you're coming from with Harrison Ford, I really do. But that's the thing about privilege. White Han Solo doesn't have to 'represent' white people, cos basically the whole saga is lots of different white people – men anyway – with whom to identify.

It isn't fair that it's different. It isn't fair that someone absolutely should have foreseen the effect this line would have out in the world, the effect that a trained soldier needing explosives 'splained to him would have, the effect that having him lie so often would have. Or the painful effect that the 'misdirect' marketing would have. Not naming himself, that's not just or even mostly about race and representation – I don't like that for this character's arc, regardless of race or gender or any other factor. Finn should have named himself; it's just better storytelling.

It's not fair, though, that a writer can't make a joke without that joke being twisted into a weapon to make a character who means so much to so many immediately smaller and less significant. It isn't fair, and it isn't right. But to my genuine surprise, it is, apparently, the way it is. And since that's happening, it is unfortunate that we weren't able to just avoid the line altogether, not give fuel to their fire. But since they've already lit it, we can't just let it burn the character down until he's reduced to ashes, like a cross in my backyard when I was nine. I won't let that happen. I won't.

You are absolutely right, AhsokaSolo, but unfortunately Star Wars really matters in the real world, so sadly we have to deal with it.

 

I 'Liked' your post anyway because I identify with SO MUCH of it, but the 'Mary Rey Sue' thing – how can you say that? How can you so clearly understand the meta-relevance of Finn, yet not see how important it is that Rey be as capable as she is and, at the very least in the first film, not have to explain it to ANYBODY? It's brilliant, she has broken barriers, she's not done, and she and Finn are an adorable, energetic, incredible team!

Black dudes have always been allowed to be tough and funny. Finn doesn't need that, and like you, one of my favorite things about him is that he is IN NO WAY AN ALPHA. Thank the stars! That was actually my fear, and I'm so happy it's not the case. When Finn doesn't have to fight, I imagine him reading books, baking cookies, and going on long walks with Rey, just being peaceful and happy. All the people who think just because I want Finn to be a Jedi that means I want him to be a typical hero are wildly mistaken.

I want Finn to be Finn. He was a slave who freed himself, a trained killer who rejected his conditioning, but he has training and needs a way to channel it, 'something to fight for.' He has Rey, sure, but honestly that entire storyline was completely unexpected for me. I never imagined that would happen ever never. I only ship them now because of Boyega's and Ridley's heart-bursting performances.

No, I want him to fight for more than a girl, and more than a war. I want him to be a Jedi working to build a new Jedi order – one not based on midichlorians and bloodlines, but on feeling the Force in everything, everywhere. I want Finn to be a spiritual warrior not just because I think the meta is resoundingly, incredibly important. I want it because I want that for Finn – and for Rey – as characters.

I agree with you that Finn has a lot of meta-message problems and a couple significant narrative consistency problems that Rey doesn't have, and that someone noticing what a significant number of people would do with that 'sanitation' line is certainly one of them. Yes, definitely. But attacking Rey for being 'too powerful' or resenting the fact that they got more right with her is not the problem. Finn and Rey are in this together – and they are both taking us into unexplored galaxies. It's like JJ has said, talking about the Force in A New Hope, 'The movie was literally doing the thing that it was talking about it and proving its point in a way.'

There have been stumbles, but other than the naming, they're mostly not that big a deal. At the end of the day, the 'janitor' thing really just allows us all to show our true colors. Maybe that was even the intention. Who knows? JJ is certainly aware of the way fans talk about SW and 'pick it apart.' He commented on 60 Minutes about how fans would obsessively analyze the snippets of John Williams's score that aired on the show. Perhaps these moments, except the unfortunate naming fiasco, are all just red herrings, bait for the weak-minded to reveal themselves – before Finn grows into the unprecedented hero he is destined to become. From that perspective, it's not so bad after all.

I'm all for the Finn-Rey ship! As far as I'm concerned that's just plain happening; I'm no longer debating it. But I haven't settled on that as all Finn is, or all Rey is. I think for the first time in the SW universe, a true and healthy love story is at the heart of a story about what the Force is, what it means to be a Jedi, and how to be a hero. I don't think we need to tear down Rey to build up Finn, and I don't believe Finn needs Rey in order to matter. I think they stand together, hand in hand, historic heroes for the ages. I think there are amazing things on the horizon. In time, I think people who still strangely need to define Finn as 'a janitor' will simply be revealing their true face. Actually, I think that's true already. But I'm not worried.

 

And here's the straw man. I wasn't 'looking for' anything, and that implication is, frankly, insulting. It's an indirect attempt, whether intentional or not, to dismiss and silence a valid protest against people actively trying to reduce this character to something he's not. I really like your post very much, except that last sentence. That felt like a slap in the face, and a little close to personal. I see where you're coming from, though. It's lucky to have enough privilege that you genuinely can't understand 'what everybody's going on about.' That's really lucky.

I'm not offended by the line itself, as I have said so clearly, so many times. I am offended by the way a significant number of people have actually taken it to mean that he is in fact 'just' a janitor – or at least they pretend to. That's not you. That's great. That's not me, either.

This thread is not even really about 'offense;' it's about clarifying that simple fact for the poor unfortunate souls who found the film so confusing. The thread exists only to say that's not true: Finn is NOT 'a janitor.' You already seem to understand. That's fantastic. I love that. Merry Christmas!

 

The stronger Finn is, the more elite he is, the more ridiculous Rey beating Ren is.

 

Most Epic. Argument. Ever.

 

They surely weren't, and they surely weren't presented as if they might be by a director who took great pains to both talk about this film's diverse cast and the social significance of representation in blockbuster media. JJ Abrams did that. JJ Abrams seems to be a very good man with a very good heart, and I don't believe Finn's ultimate story is going to be a letdown – at least not for me.

…Aaaand we're done. I feel absolutely certain that you are being totally honest with me, and thank you very much for that. It's truly helpful.

There's really not much to say after that, but you asked direct questions, so I would feel impolite not answering them.

First of all, that all-caps 'YOU' is low-hanging fruit. I'll acknowledge that I see it, but I'm not picking it. It doesn't look delicious.

Finn hasn't 'ended up' being anything yet, and I am really confused how that's your take. There are two more films, and everywhere in the world except China, Finn ain't shrunk. Sorry.

I think at this point, not seeing Finn as the male lead is not a conversation I'm willing to spend time on. If you really don't understand John Boyega to be the leading man in this film, I really don't think there's anything I could say that would help you understand that.

Except maybe this: Imagine that Finn had been played by, say, someone who looks like Liam Hemsworth (but 2 years younger). He has the same storyline and the same amount of scenes. He is played just as well, and has all the same jokes. He has the same level of chemistry with Daisy Ridley. Would we still be debating whether or not he's the leading man? Would we still be debating whether or not there was a brilliantly written and beautifully performed Hollywood romance blooming? Would we have to make a thread to make it clear that the story does not support him being defined as 'a janitor,' and if there was one, would there be people saying what a waste of time it is to have such a thread and still arguing 'Why can't he be just that?'

We all know the answer, no matter what we say it is. But here's the proof, in the first Hunger Games, Liam Hemsworth's character has FAR less scenes, and though his chemistry with Jennifer Lawrence is also beautiful, it is not like what JB and DR brought to the screen. That last point, of course is subjective. And sadly, if one were predisposed, say, to be averse to the notion of a mixed race leading couple in the SW franchise, they might actually, genuinely, not experience the chemistry. That's real. But if Finn had been played by someone who looked like Liam Hemsworth, I don't think we'd be having this conversation, because no one didn't pick up on the attraction between Gale and Katniss right from the first scene in the movie, and they were very clearly 'best friends.' I deeply hope Rey and Finn don't end up like Katniss and Gale, though. Besides 'been there, done that,' I just want these two to get to be happy. Nothing to do with Finn's skin.

For fun, let's continue to imagine that Finn is still played by Liam Hemsworth, but Rey is played by, say, a 20-year-old Lupita Nyong'o. And it's still Star Wars, America's most definitive Hollywood franchise. Now, we might still have plenty of people denying the central romance, but would there be ANY doubt that Finn was at least co-lead? And in this scenario, would Oscar Isaac (Hernández)'s Cuban and Guatemalan heritage not be much more strongly perceived as non-white?

I wish I was one of those people good at making fake movie posters; I'd love to actually see both of these!

Again, we know the answers. That's why.[/b]

I've already posted a long explanation for why just cannot be another 'this far, but no further' character. It was initially deleted within hours of posting it, based on questionable rules that didn't even apply to the thread in which it was posted. It has since been restored, and the questionable rules in the other thread amended:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-become-a-jedi.50035791/page-17#post-53011724

That's why.

You are SO RIGHT, LordoftheJawas, I am definitely, absolutely, certainly, no doubt 'projecting my own desires into the characters' – because that's how characters work and for the very first time at this scale, the hero looks like me and I JUST CAN. You're d*** right; I am doing that! And I'm loving it!

And suddenly I realize. No matter how many times Finn gets called 'a janitor,' that will never make it true. That's not how it is. The film is not vague about it. It isn't ambiguous or confusing. It isn't up for debate. Finn is a hero, at the beginning of his journey, and no one can take that away. No one.

THAT'S WHY.

I think you are absolutely right, and in here, too. Everywhere. They're everywhere…

…That's why my entire life I've had this 'strange need' to see people who look like me in fun movies and Saturday morning serials. That's why I understand, with painful clarity, that Star Wars is the great American myth I was never really fully invited to be part of. That's why I understand, with heart-aching certainty, that Star Wars is a way deeper subject than just some 'fun movie.'

I understand from the pit of my soul, back through countless childhood memories, that Finn is important. The fact that he exists is important, the way he is written and portrayed is important. The way Finn is perceived in the world matters a great deal more than it should, believe me, I know. If you don't think that matters, that's okay. You can think it's not important. You can build the straw man that says I'm making something out of nothing. It is fascinating how that keeps happening.

I'll take comfort in knowing that JJ Abrams knows exactly what I'm talking about, and George Lucas probably has some new perspectives, too. Here's JJ, who says it, sadly, better than a person of color ever could, because he, being white and privileged, doesn't have to simultaneously defend himself for calling it out in the first place:

As someone who happens to be a white dude, it felt like a critical opportunity to allow people to see themselves in a story that could potentially be meaningful to them. I don’t know what it must feel like to grow up seeing mass entertainment and not see someone who looked like me in it, for my entire lifetime. It must be alienating, and, I’m guessing, hurtful.'

 

This guy just trolled the hell out of you.

 

what's wrong with being a janitor ? seems a decent enough job to me .

a bigger problem for me was the way he killed his brothers-in-arms , I mean he's grown up and fought with these guys , I understand he wanted to leave but to kill his mates like that and not care seems very cold and not in character .

 

That's possible, but I was glad to get those thoughts clear anyways. Now I can just enjoy the holiday and stop getting snapped at for being on my phone. May the Force be with us all.

 

There's a reason for that and it isn't because the first paragraph correlates to the second paragraph. They don't bring it up or bring attention to it, if and when it ever is brought up. In other words, they just keep doing what they're doing and shrug it off whenever idiots try and bait them. We can use North Korea as a great example. Their leader is globally perceived as a cartoon (naturally by his own design to fuel the craziness narrative so as to provide ample material to have on-hand to use in order to maintain control) and the people there as sad victims that don't know any better. But you don't see any Koreans, be it in South Korea or anywhere else in the world, being like "Dude, stahp! You're making us look bad! Ugh, soooo embarrassing." It's classic bullying. They don't and won't feel threatened whether as individuals or as a community. It's totally a "whatever" moment to them. The bully naturally moves on, even if satisfied to get the last word in, and not really eager to try again with such unaccommodating targets.

Eventually, I expect Kanjiklub being "little freaky guys" by Han to be brought up one day if it hasn't already as a misstep of the film. I think that actually is fair, but unsurprising that it happened, e.g., how much of the Western world believe Indians all eat monkey brains and think Shiva is basically Indian Satan due to Spielberg and Lucas not bothered enough to do any research beyond the cosmetic? No, most people would say they don't, but if it was trivia night and the question was: "List off 10 things you know about India", either of those two would end up on the list by #4 at latest by most. Where were the protests for that? Yeah, they didn't really happen with any significance to historical memory. Kanjiklub were part of the weakest scene in the film. And they were all pretty much a Genghis Khan barbarian martial-artist hodgepodge of faceless grunters. Offensive but it won't elicit defensiveness in Asians except the ones in Asian-American cultural groups at whichever universities; that's the key - defensiveness. Instead, it just evokes eye-rolling and annoyance, as it should from everyone, but nothing worth any effort beyond inconvenience.

 

Hopefully I'm not repeating but I'm pretty sure that sanitation line was likely a Kevin Smith "Clerks" reference.
Besides, even if he was a janitor, so what? It doesn't change a thing he did in the movie. Hell, probably makes it even more impressive that he accomplished as much as he did in the movie.

 

hang on what ? that's Lucas's wife ?! Hell she must be 20 years younger than him .

.

 

All it takes is one screw up and the Control Bridge floods with sewage... and dianogas.

 

How can he be one of Phasmas "Elite" yet that was his "first battle"???

Doesn't make any sense.

Additionally, they used his past in sanitation for the TRASH COMPACTOR joke with Phasma.