ST First Order or New Republic/Resistance?

Who have you sworn allegiance to? This thread will most likely have spoilers so you have been warned!

 

C. Spinners Guild, lead by TR-8R.

 

Not an Empire apologist, probably won't be a First Order apologist when this is over, but there's something deeply sympathetic to me in Hux's angry "LIES!!"

Until the New Republic shows they are worth fighting for, that word will continue to define their worth for me. And no, secretly paying Darth Vader's daughter to conduct deniable killings most definitely does not count.

 

The Resistance, with my pilots Rey and Chewbacca and led by General Leia Organa


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Too little information is given to have a preference for either side.
I preferred the Republic in the PT and the Empire in the OT, because they were the legitimate governments.
But I do not know what to think about the First Order, the New Republic or the Resistance. Is the FO a government or just an underground organization? Who controls the capital Coruscant?

 

You're not serious about the legitimate governments thing, are you? I mean, are you actually saying that you supported the Empire in the OT, on a philosophical level as opposed to a "they look cooler" level? Even after they blew up a planet on a whim? If so, you're scaring me.

Plus, you misunderstand legitimacy. The Empire did not seek the consent of its public when becoming an Empire. It is therefore illegitimate.

 

I always support the good guys even if bad guys usually look cooler I just hope The First order gets a chance to strike back. OT is so cool because Empire Strikes Back makes it look like a serious opponent that can win (Yeah don't mention it then suffers defeat because of ewoks....)

And legitimacy is always a matter of perspective- if we think that people's consent is needed Empire was not legitimate but if we think that who has the bigger guns is legitimate then it was
Empire had citizens that thought it is legitimate- from their point of view it was.

 

Hux was potentially mistaken, as the Republic as a whole was not supporting Leia. Several senators were. But the Republic government as a whole had kept Leia out of politics due to her "war mongering." So Hux was correct in that Leia was receiving help, but it wasn't with the blessing of the Republic.

And as far as the Republic violating the treaty. Well, they weren't. Leia arguably was, but it was in response to the First Order breaking the treaty by mobilizing for war.

But realistically, the film doesn't do a great job of explaining this political situation, despite the Story Group seemingly deciding that this was the canon they wanted.

 

The Resistance were kind of like the numerous groups funded by the US and USSR during the cold war for proxy warfare.

 

I'm undecided. I know how star wars loves to mess around in those grey moral areas, and to stir up a lot of misdirection in the process. So I'm holding out to make sure the resistance/new republic are truly the real good guys.

 

First Order all the way if you're asking me which group (or type of government) I support. I love Poe Dameron and Rey and Finn and Han, but my allegiance is with the First Order.

The Galactic Republic in the PT was a terrible way of governing the galaxy. It was too big, had too many people in power, and it was extremely difficult to get things done due to the enormous amount of gridlock.
The Galactic Empire was a far better government for the galaxy. The galaxy needed a very strong government to keep order and push for progress and that is exactly what the Empire was aimed at doing. It had flaws, absolutely, but it was far better than the Republic.
1. Under the Empire, technology progressed more in a few decades than it did in thousands of years before under the Republic. More areas of the galaxy were explored, charted, and researched. (unlike the arrogant Jedi council which claimed "If a system isn't charted in our database, it does not exist.")
2. The Empire largely left alien and lower species alone. It did not go out and kill them for fun; it only used violence against those who rose up against the government. Perfect example were the Ewoks...the Empire built the Death Star II in orbit around Endor, and build a large base there...yet the Ewoks lived peacefully and happily under no threat from the Empire. Then the Rebel Alliance came along and started a conflict that caused mass destruction of the Ewoks' society.
3. The Empire was far better for the economy of the galaxy through vast employment opportunities (for big projects like the Death Star) and through investing in infrastructure.
4. Things actually got done under the Empire, where direction was decided by a limited number of people who kept things moving, unlike the forever debating and corrupted Republic.

The First Order is trying to build the Empire-like government back up, and I support it entirely.

The ultimate reason why I cannot support the Republic is that it is a regime that acquiesces to disorder. And disorder is one of the greatest faults a governing body can tolerate.

 

I've got no real idea about whether or not the Republic as a whole was a good system or not. I haven't bothered to think about or look into it all that much. It hasn't really interested me. But the part that did interest me was of course the Jedi's role in it. And from things presented, the Jedi did seem somewhat... I dunno, misguided? A bit arrogant? We're Jedi, what we say and do is law. Etc. Which obviously bred some hostile and unfortunate feels towards them.

Sifo-Dyas defected. From what I've read up on him, of which very little was present in the PT, he thought that full scale conflict was inevitable. Or whatever. And he wanted the Jedi to be proactive and build a defense force. They disagreed. He left. He had the clone army made. This was a Jedi Master. And he said screw you guys, shiz's gonna go down, we needa do something. Shiz did go down. And also hit the fan. And it was convenient that something the Jedi opposed became their only defense. Of course Sidipalps pulled some strings, but it was Sifo's initial feels that led him down that path I'd imagine.

Dooku was a Jedi Master. He left. He obviously thought there was some shiz that needed to be done differently. I doubt someone like him was swayed by Palpasids completely. He must've had some bad feels about before any outside influence. He came across as an intelligent, noble bro, even as a bad guy.

And of course Anakin. He felt out of it from the beginning. You've got a Jedi bro telling the rest of the Jedi this kid's spesh, and yet, nah, screw this kid. Wow, harsh. N he obviously never had that feel leave him.

I'm sure this theme had precedent in the EU.

Just get the overall feeling that the Jedi are said to be the good guys, they're supposed to be the ones that protect everyone and have noble intentions. But they end up not really coming across as being these paragons of good and just judgement imo.

Of course the total opposite, the Sith were never a viable alternative. But obviously something had to change inevitably.

 

First Order. Bad guys forever!

 

Yes agreed. I preferred the Republic in the PT, but only because of the Jedi. Otherwise some of the CIS ideals were correct - stamp out corruption and bureacracy etc. Without the Jedi, then you need the Empire to maintain order. And let's not forget the Empire brought peace to the galaxy and brought an official presence to the Outer Rim (you see Stormtroopers policing Tatooine in the OT, whereas the Old Republic never enforced the law against crime lords, slavery etc in the PT era).

As for the post Endor era, is it not possible that Luke could have become the heir to the throne if Vader had requested it and thus simply taken over the Empire and made it better? If necessary revert some power back to a Senate and reintroduce Jedi ethics to the Imperial military versus Sith tactics.

The New Republic from what we have heard seems as ineffective as the Old one. And in terms of corruption, if the deleted scenes and Star Wars website are correct, then they seem to be getting back to the old ways. I would like to see the Jedi Temple on Coruscant spewing out the warriors of old to reestablish and keep the peace asap if that is to be the new government!

The First Order doesn't really seem as morally legitimate as the Empire, but a splinter group of rogues who are using the Empire to fulfill their own purposes. They also seem far far more ruthless. With the Empire, it was about one unified galaxy with order and peace. The First Order seems to be about destruction and chaos, despite their professed love of order. And they are also totally dark by the looks of it. Unlike the Empire, we have yet to see the good they have done. Unless we see them having turned poverty stricken worlds in their space into prosperous export hubs then I'll stick with just supporting the Jedi versus choosing the New Republic or First Order. Was hoping to see more Mace Windu's, Aayla's Shaak Ti's, Skywalkers, etc in the new Jedi Order.

As for the capital, I think the Republic and the old Jedi Temple is there too. But apparently the New Republic Senate shifts its adminstrative capital (not the actual capital) every few years. The current host planet along with most of the Senators were killed in TFA, not Coruscant. It is unlikely they would destroy that, given it is widely recognized as the center of the galaxy. Not even the madman Hux would have done that lol.

In terms of equipment, then yes First Order seems better. Don't know about those new Stormtrooper armor though. The helmet is cool, but the body armor seems less of a fit to the figure? Maybe Kylo was right, time to revert to clones.

The Empire had more legitimacy than the Rebellion though. The Emperor was elected, brough peace to the galaxy, and brought order. The Old Republic, was bloated, corrupt, did not act at times of crisis (e.g. Naboo Separatist initial violence in AOTC, etc). It also did not enforce the law in far flung worlds like Tatooine where slavers acted with impunity. The Empire brought a police presence to outer worlds, had a strong military to keep the peace and acted as a benevolent presence. They permitted outside worlds, colonies and enterprises to exist such as Bespin if they did not act against the Empire.

Now as for how the Empire came into being, as far as who was legitimate, Palpatine was legitimate. I think his plan was incredibly twisted and evil. In fact I don't think it was right at all. Nor do I think the Jedi deserved to die. He clearly framed them for all ills and justified it later by concocting lies and fitting the evidence to suit. But the Republic ALSO betrayed the Jedi Order. To be honest, had Anakin not intervened and Mace Windu killed Palpatine, I think they were right, the Jedi Council would have had to rule at least temporarily to sort the whole mess out. With their control of the military, the Jedi junta might have been able to stamp out corruption over time whilst they simply ruled as a ruling council versus a one man show that was Palpatine. Either way the galaxy needed a clear leader and direction..in Palpatine's words, a vision.

It is unclear who has legitimacy after Endor. Had Vader lived, it is simpler. He would have been the heir. In fact, it might have been much smoother had Luke simply accepted the title. Then as the new Emperor (named by Vader before he died...why did no one help Vader when the Death Star was about to blow?), Luke could have brought a nicer galaxy back into being. He could have reestablished Jedi ethics to bring peace to the galaxy. Without causing total anarchy and chaos.

Having said that, surely authority would have reverted to the next person in the command chain? Not sure how the entire Imperial military is defeated by the Rebellion, who it seems are supported by relatively few planets in the CONTEXT OF THE ENTIRE GALAXY? This is a galaxy of quadrillions. In fact, compared to the old Republic, many citizens' lives might have actually been better under the Empire. Let us not forget, that many bad decisions that were evil, were unilateral of a commander, not the whole Empire.

E.g. Tarkin took a unilateral decision to blow up Alderaan. That was not Vader, nor the Emperor. Nor other Imperial leaders, nor the Imperial Senate.

The Imperials are presumed to have killed Owen and Beru, but no proof is given. We only have Obi Wan's word that they killed the Jawas, but it is unclear why they would do either? As for the Tantive IV, that was a legitimate operation to recover stolen plans. And on Endor, the Imperials co-exist with the natives until they are riled up by the Rebels.

As for the New Republic, sadly there is no Jedi Order to keep the peace and keep the Republic in check. If you have a Jedi Order, then fine, I'm for it. But without it, then no. It appears that according to the Star Wars website, the New Republic is in denial and ineffective against splinter Imperials such as the First Order from coming about. Some Senators are said to be in collusion with them. Corruption has come to the fore once more. And lack of decision making and governance. Back to square one.

The First Order though are lunatics. Unlike the Empire, they seem clearly evil. There is no legitimacy to what they are doing. And they are of a darker side of dark than Palpatine and Vader. In fact if they are not legitimate, then neither are the Rebellion.

You'd have to hold an election to see who the quadrillions prefer.

Bring back the Jedi!!! Whoever they run with, even if it's a new reformed Empire, go with them!

Yes indeed. Palpatine did great things. Terrible yes...but great.

Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi Wan: You will find that many things will depend on your point of view.

Palpatine (to Anakin): If one is to understand the great mystery, one must take...a larger view of the Force.

Mace Windu: The Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition.

 

Understood. But Palpatine as Emperor in the OT was only "legitimate" in the way that Adolf Hitler was legitimate. Or Hugo Chavez. They were elected in a democratic system, but then dismantled that very democratic system in order to stay in power, and realize their singular aims. Hitler also enforced "order," at least within Germany, where there had previously been a greater level of crime. And by his own standards, he felt he was bringing order to what he perceived to be a corrupt European continent, with beleaguered ethnic Germans throughout.

Being elected democratically is not the whole of "legitimacy."

The Rebel Alliance was, on the other hand, the more legitimate party because their aim was to restore the republican system that Palpatine had dismantled.

 

I don't know you can have The New Republic and Resistance as the same thing. Its not like the Republic which the Jedi were are part of. I don't get the relationship or feel anything what so ever for the New Republic. My point in another thread "The Empire was defeated by the Rebellion but the New Republic seems to have little in common with the Rebellion". So what is the New Republic and whatever it is its dysfunctional.

 

Palpatine created a peaceful environment post the end of the Clone Wars though. He didn't pursue other people or planets unlike the example above.

Could the Alliance have pushed for this in the Imperial Senate in the years before ANH?

Palpatine also had a vision, he wasn't completely mad or evil and claiming what wasn't his. He didn't invade planets. He targetted corruption. And his Empire was a collective entity of thousands of planets rather than Coruscant imposing its will on others.

What I would prefer is either the Republic or Empire with the Jedi or Jedi ethics. Either of those entities in the hands of bad guys is bad. The New Republic without Jedi is just as bad as either the Old Republic or the Empire.

It might have been better had either Anakin not interfered, and the Jedi coup succeeded thus resulting in either a temporary or permanent Jedi junta running affairs. Or else Luke either pretend to join or joins Vader, removes the Emperor, claims the throne legitimately given Vader was the heir, and then reforms the Empire to include more freedoms and reopening the principle of debate. That would be orderly just as the transfer of power had been orderly the other way round.

The Jedi could be trusted to do that of course. Maybe members of the Alliance (primarily the main cast we follow) might do it, but not just anybody or any politician. Judging from the description on the Star Wars website, it sounds like Mothma after gaining power, sidelined Leia in terms of what should be done after the Emperor and the primary military forces of the Empire were defeated. On top of that, it seems the former's agenda was never to bring back the Jedi, the keepers of the peace, who were crucial for the Old Republic to have prevailed.

 

The First Order is more fun. But when all is said and done, I'll be supporting Luke.

 

Some great discussion here!

I've always been a strict strict Empire guy (although a soft spot of Luke at times) but I am having a hard time picking sides with TFA... Love Kylo Ren and his multi-layered character, but the heroes in TFA are just really hard not to root for. And now, being a father of a year old daughter, Rey is just such a self sufficient awesome young woman that I want my daughter to admire!