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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Flag burning should be unconstitutional!

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Coolguy4522, Jul 7, 2002.

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  1. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    "I've never burned a flag before, but if it were illegal to do so, I would run out and buy a few dozen of them to make a bonfire."

    CwrnPuppet, I think I love you. [face_love]
     
  2. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    "I'm sure that someone named Adolf has thought of that. *sigh"

    You've already lost the debate. I love when people mention Adolf or Nazi's like he was the only tyrant to ever kill people. His name and the Nazi's are thrown around more in debates on this board then flys hovering over poodo. Please why not throw another name out for once than going to old faithful. Sure he was a very bad guy but why not show some hint of smartness and name a name not mentioned for awhile.

    Oh and did you look up in the books yet on what you can do if a riot takes place?

    "tell me who gets hurt when someone resposibly burns a flag in protest."

    I DO and so does every single person who has ever fought for this freaking country and the freedoms you love to hide behind. That is who gets hurt and your spitting on the men and women who died for this country because they have taken a FREAKING OATH to protect our country and THAT FLAG that you want to burn out of whatever lame protest you come up with.

    Make it a federal offense and throw anyone burning the flag in jail, until they can learn to respect for the very country, laws and freedoms you have under that flag that you hate so much. People take so much for granted in this country and it makes me sick that I want to puke.



     
  3. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Yeah, sure - I'll try to be more unique when referencing psychopaths. Give me a break.

    Saint_Of_Killers - *smooch*
     
  4. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    Yeah you do that and have some respect for your country in which you don't have a dictator like your buddy Hitler, Stalin, or lets say Napoleon.

    Burning the flag would only be a first step in that direction, because if you don't have respect for your country in the compacity of protecting the flag which represents your country then you certainly don't have respect or care enough about who might swindle their way into power one day feeding off the emotions of people like you who want to burn the flag, and change all of what America stands for right now. Feed off that for a little while.
     
  5. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Feed off that? What the hell are you talking about? I've been told that one of the things for which your precious flag stands is freedom. That would include the freedom to burn said flag, should one so desire. Why do human beings seem so stuck on getting violently angry about symbols?
     
  6. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    And while we're on the subject, I was and am rather upset about who has recently swindled his way into power.
     
  7. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    This freedom doesn't give you the right to burn your own flag. It doesn't give you the right to give top secret information to your enemies.

    The freedom you love talking about is the freedom to protest in a civil/legal manner and burning the freaking flag is not civil and if this is past it's not legal. There is a right and wrong way to protest and burning the flag is one of them.

    Oh and the feed on that for a while comment is about what I wrote in my last post. If you cannot respect the flag of your country then what's next?

    There are 50 stars on that flag. Each representing a State, so when your burning the flag you might as well be setting fire to all 50 states.

    Oh and Bush legally was elected president of the United States. The rest of the country can't help the fact that we had so many idiots in South Florida who can't punch the right CHAD, or that Gore wasn't very popular in his home state of Tenn. It wouldn't have matter what had happened in Florida if Gore had won his home state. Any good candadite running for president always needs to get his home States support first, but Gore decided to ignore them and so he wasn't elected.
     
  8. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    This freedom doesn't give you the right to burn your own flag. It doesn't give you the right to give top secret information to your enemies.

    *snort* There's quite a big difference between destroying a piece of cloth, regardless of what it symbolizes and giving secrets to "enemies". Are you also one of those people who says to the effect of, "If we allow homosexuality to exist, then next we'll be condoning sex with animals!"? Just wondering.

    The freedom you love talking about is the freedom to protest in a civil/legal manner and burning the freaking flag is not civil and if this is past it's not legal.

    How is burning the flag not civil? It doesn't harm anyone. It is simply a statement of protest, or kindling when one is low on paper, as the case may be.

    There is a right and wrong way to protest and burning the flag is one of them.

    That's your opinion. "Right and wrong" are such vague and varrying concepts, depending on to whom one is speaking. You may disagree with both the views and the actions of those who would burn a flag, but that does not mean that it is wrong, without question.

    Even so, I find it odd that those who so cherish this freedom are so adamant to limit freedom of expression.

    Oh and the feed on that for a while comment is about what I wrote in my last post. If you cannot respect the flag of your country then what's next?

    World conquest. What did you think? Give it a rest - the flag may stand for freedom to you, but to some it may stand for the slaughter of the native inhabitants of this country. For some, it may symbolize a nation that once condoned slavery. Who knows? Any symbol can have varying meanings to individuals and to propose that there is one correct meaning to a symbol is solipsistic, at best.

    There are 50 stars on that flag. Each representing a State, so when your burning the flag you might as well be setting fire to all 50 states.

    What? Am I the only one who sees how silly that sounds? It's only a flag. It's only a symbol. Anything done to it will not affect that for which it stands.

    Oh and Bush legally was elected president of the United States. The rest of the country can't help the fact that we had some many idiots in South Florida who can't punch the right CHAD, or that Gore wasn't very popular in his home state of Tenn.

    Prove it. 90% of people that I have talked to say that they didn't vote for Bush. There was more than a little bit of fishiness in that election. Either way, that isn't the topic at hand and I apologize for diverting it.
     
  9. council_of_trent

    council_of_trent Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 23, 2002
    Freedom without Law is Anarchy.
    Law without Freedom is Tyranny.

    Mostly you want to land straight in the middle.

    Oh, and the problem with non-electoral polls is they represent the opinion of a sample of people, not all people.

    What do you care if someone has a different opinion of you? That's one great thing about America: You get to think for yourself. You've presented what you think is right. He doesn't accept it. Time to move on. He may not be right, but if he gets into real trouble, let them who rightfully have the positions to do so take care of him.
     
  10. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    Burning the flag is not civil in anyway. Lighting something on fire to show contempt and hate is not civil.

    "Are you also one of those people who says to the effect of, "If we allow homosexuality to exist, then next we'll be condoning sex with animals!"? Just wondering."

    No I am not. I could care less. Whatever floats your boat. Oh and as long as it's legal. Last I checked having sex with Animals wasn't legal.

    "It doesn't harm anyone"

    I've already stated that it does, and if your too blind to go back and read my post to see who it harms then your not worth talking to. You know I could say the same darn thing about the people who want the POA changed. It doesn't harm anyone. It harms and offends those who love this country and those who have fought and died for this country and that flag. You might take it for granted but those people didn't, because they believe in something, while you just consider it some peice of cloth. Sad. Anyone who burns the American flag in this country is no better than those Terrorist SOB's who flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon on September the 11th. They too hate the flag and think it's a piece of cloth also.

    If your going to live in this country then you will respect it's LAWS, AND IT'S SYMBOLS or you can get out and find home someplace else. If you think your being oppressed so much over in this country then go find another country that will not oppress you so much and happy hunting. That goes for any country when you go to visit. You don't act like you would back home in another country. You respect the people and the customs there, or you will not get a warm welcome. The same applies here in America.

    It's called respect,something many young people these days don't have, and need to learn.

    "Even so, I find it odd that those who so cherish this freedom are so adamant to limit freedom of expression"

    That is because I respect this country and the freedom you want to exploit by burning the flag. There is no infinite space of freedom of expression and there is a cut off point and it's time you and others learn that. It's called good taste and burning a flag is not good taste. You might as well set off a bomb as a sign of protest. Not too mention like I said earlier that if you light something on fire like that you can harm someone if it gets out of control and burn someone and start a big fire. Maybe you haven't watched the news lately with all the fires out West. Yeah it's not a good idea to set anything on fire if it's not a controlled burn and even those get out of control. Yeah burning a flag is a real smart thing to do in a protest.
     
  11. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Burning the flag is not civil in anyway. Lighting something on fire to show contempt and hate is not civil.

    Who says it is in contempt or hate? Once can burn charcoal in public - why not a flag?

    No I am not. I could care less. Whatever floats your boat. Oh and as long as it's legal. Last I checked having sex with Animals wasn't legal.

    Neither is sodomy, in many states. Not that this really applies to the topic at hand: I was merely commenting that it is a similar leap of logic.

    "It doesn't harm anyone"

    I've already stated that it does, and if your too blind to go back and read my post to see who it harms then your not worth talking to.


    Yes, I read your post and I know to what you are referring, but that doesn't change the fact that I disagree with you. Symbols are only that - symbols. If their use or misuse in any way affects you, I would assert that this is due to your own feelings and ideas, not any direct corellation to the act itself.

    You know I could say the same darn thing about the people who want the POA changed. It doesn't harm anyone. It harms and offends those who love this country and those who have fought and died for this country and that flag.

    This is an entirely different can of bait, but one might argue that forcing anyone to recite anything can harm and offend them. Yes, freedom, except you MUST recite this oath. Yeesh.

    You might take it for granted but those people didn't, because they believe in something, while you just consider it some peice of cloth. Sad. Anyone who burns the American flag in this country is no better than those Terrorist SOB's who flew planes into the WTC and the Pentagon on September the 11th. They too hate the flag and think it's a piece of cloth also.

    Whoa.

    That is quite possibly the most offensive thing I have read in months. No better than those who attacked the WTC? Some guy or girl setting fire to a flag, regardless of what it means to you, is CERTAINLY not to be equated with those responsible for that terror. As one who lost both friends and neighbors in the WTC tragedy, I take the strongest possible offense to this remark. It's all I can do to belay my anger and not lash out at you for that one: Your spelling and grammar would be easy targets, pal.

    If your going to live in this country then you will respect it's LAWS, AND IT'S SYMBOLS or you can get out and find home someplace else.

    The concept of democracy is one in which the people have the right to contest the government and its actions. The ideal of America is one in which we do not blindly follow laws or our leaders. The people have a say and that is what makes this country great - not attrition without thought.


    If you think your being oppressed so much over in this country then go find another country that will not oppress you so much and happy hunting.

    When did I say that I was oppressed?

    Regardless, the "accept it all or leave" mentality is getting rather old. As I said before, the whole point of a democracy is the ability to disagree with and challenge the choices of the law-makers.

    That goes for any country when you go to visit. You don't act like you would back home in another country. You respect the people and the customs there, or you will not get a warm welcome. The same applies here in America.

    I'm not visiting America. I live here. I am a part of this culture and as such, by law, I have the right to disagree and actively protest the government and its mandates.

    It's called respect,something many young people these days don't have, and need to learn.

    Yes; those evil, evil young people.

    "Even so, I find it odd that those who so cherish this freedom are so adamant to limit freedom of expression"

    That is because I respect this country and the freedom you want to exploit by burning the flag. There is no infinite space of freedom of expression and there is a cut off point and it's time you and others learn that.


    Harsh words, "it's time you an
     
  12. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    "When did I say that I was oppressed?"

    This is comment I was referring too.

    "World conquest. What did you think? Give it a rest - the flag may stand for freedom to you, but to some it may stand for the slaughter of the native inhabitants of this country. For some, it may symbolize a nation that once condoned slavery. Who knows? Any symbol can have varying meanings to individuals and to propose that there is one correct meaning to a symbol is solipsistic, at best."


    Whoa.

    "That is quite possibly the most offensive thing I have read in months. No better than those who attacked the WTC? Some guy or girl setting fire to a flag, regardless of what it means to you, is CERTAINLY not to be equated with those responsible for that terror. As one who lost both friends and neighbors in the WTC tragedy, I take the strongest possible offense to this remark. It's all I can do to belay my anger and not lash out at you for that one: Your spelling and grammar would be easy targets, pal. "

    Good I'm glad I hit a nerve because that is exactly what I think about people who want to burn our flag in anyway that is shown to spite our country. Those same people do it and spit on our flag. What makes an American citizen any different from them? None they are doing the same act. So if your upset GOOD. I'm upset that people in this country would even consider the notion of burning the American flag and I WILL CLASSIFY THEM ALONG THE SAME LINES AS THE TERRRORISTS!!!! I myself know people who lost a father in tower 2 and one of my closet friends was supposed to visit the WTC that day and over slep and missed the attack by 30 minutes. I for one wouldn't allow the memories of those who died that day be spit on by people in this country burning an American flag. Sorry but love it or leave it. It's that simple.

    Goodnight.

    "That goes for any country when you go to visit. You don't act like you would back home in another country. You respect the people and the customs there, or you will not get a warm welcome. The same applies here in America.

    I'm not visiting America. I live here. I am a part of this culture and as such, by law, I have the right to disagree and actively protest the government and its mandates. "

    You missed my point again. Say you go and live in another country. Do you act the same way you would in America? No you do not. The same goes for people coming over here to this country.





     
  13. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    This kind of fanaticism frightens me. You seem incoherent to me.
     
  14. tenorjedi

    tenorjedi Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2000
    I'm torn because on one hand it's is a method of free speech, it is their property (assumed) and the fact that people make a big stink about it makes it such a strong statement.

    On the other hand is if you're a citizen of the US you're buring what basically protects your right to protest in the first place and therefore morally nulls your rights to it's protection.

    I'm prone to say it should be legal because if you crack down on it, they'll just burn a copy of the constitution or something else just as stupid.
     
  15. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I think that making it illegal would only spark people to want to do it more. It's akin to children being put alone in a room and told "don't look in this box!"
     
  16. AdmiralZaarin

    AdmiralZaarin Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2001
    The US government obviously doesn't consider flag burners as terrorists. Otherwise Tehran would be one smoking crater by now. And what kind of funny Irish substance makes you think flagburners are just as bad as the ones who commited S11?
     
  17. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Look it's just a flag, you can always create a new one. If it hurts you that much.

    People can be so exaggerated about this stuff...
     
  18. EnforcerSG

    EnforcerSG Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Yeah, if I hate the nation and am burning its flags, ig anyone catches me, I will know exactly where it says in the constitution... Strange how much they hate the nation, yet rely on it.

    IMHO, burning flags is stupid. Not because it is destroying s symbole of America, but because if you really dont like the country, get the #$%^ out. Otherwise, you are somewhat of a hyprocrate, living under the safty and protection of this nation and its laws while damning it.

    However, a law should not be passed against it. It would be taking away a freedom none the less.
     
  19. Rogue_Solo

    Rogue_Solo Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 21, 2001
    Flag burning should not be constitutional. Freedom of expression. I love my country, but one of the reasons I love it is because if I want to say something against the government, I can. That love is not unconditional.
     
  20. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    The great thing about the Flag of the United States of America is what it symbolizes.

    It's not the stars, the stripes, the pretty colors... but the meaning.

    The transcendental nature of the concept of freedom is this... that the flag represents that very freedom we have to burn the flag.

    I'm not saying let's all go out and burn flags for the hell of it. However, those who burn the flag are making a statement of grievance against America.

    The Bill of Rights, particularly the first Amendment makes a law against flag burning unconstitutional on several counts including, but not necessarily limited to, freedom of expression and the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. In most cases, with the exception of publicity stunts, flag-burning is an active demonstration of grievance against the United States, and most certainly a symbolic expression.

    The irony is that to ban flag-burning would be to destroy the fundamental freedoms for which that flag stands...for which it has flown for over 225 years... for which many have died to protect all those freedoms which our flag embodies.

    As much as it's stupid to burn the flag because one can, it's already been deemed unconstitutional to ban flag burning.

    What I find extremely ironic is that I see many "patriotic" Americans who disrespect the flag more than anyone else... making jackets out of them, letting them touch the ground, draping them over objects other than caskets, etc... all things that are not within the standard customs for flag display.

    Most Americans who display flags do not know the standard customs regarding the US flag, including proper folding, unfurling, display and how to display the flag when a city, state, or the nation is in a state of distress/under siege (the flag is then flown upside down as a help signal to aircraft and/or warships). I also find it peculiar that many patriotic Americans I've spoken with, particularly from the south, also believe the Flag of the Confederacy (which is a variant of the British Union Jack) is a patriotic symbol and they defend their desire to display it as a symbol of their idea of patriotism and tradition when it in fact represents those who declared war against the United States in an attempt to secede from the Union... an act which contrues treason.
     
  21. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    "I think that making it illegal would only spark people to want to do it more. It's akin to children being put alone in a room and told "don't look in this box!"

    Boy that is a big "What if" Well lets see how many do it after they get fined for 1000 dollars for doing it. Heck you should pay a littering fine for burning a flag on top of everything else. When you start hitting their pocket books and throwing a couple of these radical anti-American folks in jail to cool their heels.
     
  22. Darkside_Spirit

    Darkside_Spirit Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2001
    The flag stands for the founding principles of freedom and libertarianism, and the belief that people's liberty should be infringed only when absolutely necessary. As RoboNerd pointed out, the flag would be devalued by such a move--which would remove people's freedom to protest against the government.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

    Funny they just prevented people from saying God in school.


    How many times do people have to propagate this myth? Nobody has been prevented from saying "God" as a matter of personal, private choice. It simply can't be included as a part of official school routine.

    Oh, I forgot to mention. Which flag are you talking about?
     
  23. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Oh, I forgot to mention. Which flag are you talking about?

    Does it matter?
     
  24. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    Piggy, you've overstepped your bounds. How dare you claim to be the moral superior (from other threads) when you exclaim that you are willingly in favor of killing and/or imprisonment over the burning of fabric?! Not very Christian of you... unless you're Pat Buchannan.

    The flag is a symbol of this great nation. It has gone through many design changes over the years, and I'm sure it has many more incarnations to come. The same, thankfully can be said of the nation it represents. Change happens most often when policies or actions are questioned. Oft times, this happens in form of protest, up to and including flag burning.

    So, metaphorically speaking, the flag to which you raise your hand every morning is the direct result of our nation's changes, up to and including acts taken by the original American protestors... the founding fathers. And to save you having to argue my point, I say "metaphorically" because that is exactly what our flag is. It stands for the ideals of these United States of America. It does NOT contain within it's multi-colored folds those ideals.

    Oh, and speaking factually, your petty threats of public beatings and gunslinging (as seen at the beginning of this topic) hold no weight on a forum as anonymous as the internet. Your comments only illustrate that you would prefer deadly violence over trying to rationalize and express your opinion... a large indication of low brain-power.
     
  25. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    When you start hitting their pocket books and throwing a couple of these radical anti-American folks in jail to cool their heels.

    Is it anti-American to protest the government? Absolutely not. In fact, that right is preserved by the First Amendment. Congress has yet to be successful in getting an amendment banning flag burning to fly... even if it does, the USSC would strike it down as unconstitutional because it, regardless of its symbolism, defies the larger principles which the flag itself, ironically, symbolizes.

    Declaring war on the US is an act of treason. Burning a flag is not always a declaration of war. Please don't confuse the two... we created that provision to the Constitution for the express purpose of eliminating the old British precept of High Treason... that one could be imprisoned for their unsupportive views/comments of government and even the monarch. By the way, how did you feel about Clinton say, back in 1999?

    If you prefer that one be entirely prohibited from expressing frustration with their government or their administration, I'm sure there are many totalitarian regimes, dictatorships and monarchies which would satisfy that desire of yours... However, America is not such a country, and never has been.

    If your faith in this country is so weak that it is shaken or offended by the burning of a colorful piece of cloth... then you perhaps need to re-examine why you are a citizen of the United States, which is a nation built upon the strength and flexibility of ideas, not the brutality and fragility of edicts.

    Lest we forget the words of the first American flag:

    Don't Tread On Me.

    EDIT: Does anyone else here find it ironic that the same people who oppose the termination of the 1954 Act that added "under god" to the Pledge of Allegiance, and have dismissed it as not being a very important issue in the greater scheme of things are up in arms about flag burning? It's as if they're afraid that the absence of such legislation will spontaneously ignite flag-burning bonfire parties in the streets (pun intended). I guess when they said we have more important issues to be concerned with right now, apparently they were referring to their agenda.
     
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