Flag burning should be unconstitutional!

Does anyone else here find it ironic that the same people who oppose the termination of the 1954 Act that added "under god" to the Pledge of Allegiance, and have dismissed it as not being a very important issue in the greater scheme of things are up in arms about flag burning?

I was going to bring something up to that effect, but I assumed... or was it just hope... that it was all too visible!

In fact, we've seen in this forum some who use the POA topic in their "fairness" claims... When responding to the issue of injury infliction, Piggy wrote: "You know I could say the same darn thing about the people who want the POA changed. It doesn't harm anyone." I assume he meant "it" to mean the POA as it reads presently, which we all know is untrue (see this thread for more on the POA debate).

 

I find myself consistently wavering on the issue, until I tear away the emotion.

Burning a piece of cloth (or plastic or what have you) on the steps of the Capitol should warrant no more prosecution than burning anything on the steps of the Capitol normally would. Even if it is the American flag. It would be contrary to the spirit of freedom.

But do it in my presence and we may both end up in jail

Only a damn fool would burn a flag in protest, unless he was protesting America itself. I can't use adjectives strong enough (on this board) to describe my opinions of the idiot who would destroy a poignant symbol of liberty, equality, and freedom in protest, unless he was protesting liberty, equality, or freedom itself (or the United States' interpretation thereof).

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

I'm 99% sure that's supposed to be: Congress ahll make no law RESTRICTING an establishment of religion.

Unless the liberals decided to alter it. The US is supposed to be a place for free religions, not to have all religions erased.

 

Vaderbait: "Respecting" is indeed the correct term. Look it up. If the Establishment Clause said "restricting", there would be no need for the Free Exercise Clause.

The Establishment Clause does exactly what you advocate: makes the US a place for free religions. It prevents the government giving endorsement or preference to any one religion.

 

Flag burning is not unconstituitional. Banning flag burning is. You ban it, you go against everything everyone has beieved in and fought for.

And this is very different from the pledge thing. In that case, the government is endorsing one religion over all the otehrs. that is wrong.

 

Well then apparently the clause isn't as perfect as we think it is. If you say it's true, than it must be, and I'm looking at this wrong. I mean, "make no law respecitng religion" seems like a communist phrase, whereas "should make no law restricting religion" fits with the rest of the constitution.

 

"Respecting" is used in the sense "concerning". In other words, Congress will not regulate religion.

 

I AM THE FLAG . . .



I am the flag of the United States of America.
My name is Old Glory.
I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America's halls of justice.
I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.
Look up and see me.



I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.
When I am flown with my fellow banners,
my head is a little higher, my colors a little truer.


I bow to no one!
I am recognized all over the world.
I am worshipped I am saluted.
I am loved I am revered.
I am respected and I am feared.



I have fought in every battle of every war
for more than 200 years.
I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg,
Shiloh and Appomattox.

I was there at San Juan Hill,
the trenches of France,
in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome
and the beaches of Normandy, Guam.
Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon, Vietnam know me,
I was there.




I led my troops,
I was dirty, battle-tested and tired,
but my soldiers cheered me
And I was proud.




America has been attacked by cowardly fanatics
And many lives have been lost
But those who would destroy me cannot win
For I am the symbol of freedom,
Of one nation
Under God
Indivisible
With liberty and justice for all.




I have been burned, torn and trampled
on the streets of countries I have helped set free.
It does not hurt, for I am invincible.



I have been soiled upon, burned, torn
and trampled on the streets of my country.
And when it's by those whom I've served in battle it hurts.
But I shall overcome for I am strong.





I have slipped the bonds of Earth
and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space
from my vantage point on the moon.
I have borne silent witness
to all of America's finest hours.
But my finest hours are yet to come.



When I am torn into strips and used as bandages
for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms
of a grieving parent
at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,
I am proud.




MY NAME IS OLD GLORY
LONG MAY I WAVE.


I love this poem. I wonder how many of these people who support flag burning had the guts to join the Armed Forces? It seems to me the most whiney people who support something as dispicable as flag burning cant handle the armed forces.


Where does it all stop? Whats next shall it be ok to spit on Gold Star Mothers (I find that those who want flag burning, dont know who the Gold Star Mothers are, so I will educate them. The Gold Star Mothers are the mothers who lost a child in the name of freedom) or maybe a trip to Arlington National Cemetary to piss on the grave stones of those soldiers fallen in battle? They're the same concept as flag burning, tell me the difference.

 

Very nice.

As much as I may personally despise someone who does burn the flag in protest, I feel even more strongly that it is a valid form of protest and it shouldn't be denied under the guise or patriotism.

 

Jedi_Xen:

I do not support flag burning, but I do not support an amendment banning it. My reasons are outlined in this thread.

Are you directing your sentiments to me?

 

Some of the flag worshipping in this thread, borders on fetishism. It's just a flag, not a country, a constitution, or a way of life. Personally I feel flag burning is counter-productive, and tends to deflect attention away from whatever you're protesting about, and I'd personally avoid it, but that's a tactical decision rather than a moral imperative. In fact, I've experienced this at first hand, as I was involved in protests against the Gulf war as a student, and I argued against those who wanted to burn the Stars and Stripes, and the Union Jack, not out of respect for these flags, but out of respect for the US students studying in glasgow, who would be alienated by such a puerile gesture. Having said that maybe I'm a bit of a hypocrite, cos I laughed my head off when someone knocked Thatcher's head off this week, unfortunately it was just a statue!
One argument I am well used to hearing is the one that begins when in rome, or some variant on that theme, which I've always considered an absolute absurdity. If I lived in Saudi Arabia I certainly wouldn't wander down Riyadh high street swigging from a bottle of whisky and reciting aloud from the bible, BUT I probably would drink in the privacy of my own apartment, as it's a stupid, archaic and draconian law, and as such doesn't deserve to be treated with respect.
I'm Scottish, not because I consciously decided to adopt my nation, but because I was born here, my parents are scottish,etc. I am no fan of the UK, nor of much of what passes for politics in Scotland, but the idea that because I don't like things the way they are I should up sticks and leave is ludicrous, and the same applies whatever your country.
Being opposed to the Vietnam war didn't make the protestors any less American, burning a flag doesn't make you any less American, and disliking kilts, bagpipes, and the Scottish executive, doesn't make me any less Scottish.

 

I am simply astounded at the lengths to which people will fanatically carry symbolism. Truly frightening.

 

I am no fan of the UK, nor of much of what passes for politics in Scotland, but the idea that because I don't like things the way they are I should up sticks and leave is ludicrous, and the same applies whatever your country.
Being opposed to the Vietnam war didn't make the protestors any less American, burning a flag doesn't make you any less American, and disliking kilts, bagpipes, and the Scottish executive, doesn't make me any less Scottish.

Well said.

I tend to believe that the people who might engage in flag burning as a form of protest do not, as some people obviously believe, hate America. If you hated America that much, would you be bothering with trying to change it?

People protest because they see something wrong with the country they love, and they want do try to change it. It isn't an expression of hate by any means.


Jenavira

 

Being opposed to the Vietnam war didn't make the protestors any less American

Well it did if they left the country to avoid the draft!

 

"The Flag Goes By"
Henry Holcomb Bennett
(not me)

Hats off!
Along the street there comes
A blare of bugles, a ruffle of drums,
A flash of color beneath the sky:
Hats off!
The flag is passing by.

Blue and crimson and white it shines,
Over the steel-tipped, ordered lines.
Hats off!
The colors before us fly;
But more than the flag is passing by.

Sea-fights and land-fights, grim and great,
Fought to make and save the State:
Weary marches and sinking ships;
Cheers of victory on dying lips;

Days of plenty and years of peace;
March of a strong land's swift increase;
Equal justice, right, and law,
Stately honor and reverend awe;

Sign of a nation, great and strong
To ward her people from foreign wrong:
Pride and glory and honor,--all
Live in the colors to stand or fall.

Hats off!
Along the street there comes
A blare of bugles, a ruffle of drums;
And loyal hearts are beating high:
Hats off!
The flag is passing by!

 

Scots, Jenavira: Couldn't agree more.

Jedi_Xen: I wonder how many of these people who support flag burning had the guts to join the Armed Forces? It seems to me the most whiney people who support something as dispicable as flag burning cant handle the armed forces.

First let me say I do not support flag burning. Second let me say I do not support the banning of flag burning. I have never burned a flag, nor would I presonally use it as a means of protest... However, as an immigrant, a US citizen, a former officer of the US Air Force Auxiliary, having taken an oath to defend the Constitution, with two siblings who served in the Armed Forces, one of whom was the US Sixth Army Soldier of the Year and served with distinction in the Gulf War, I know this:

Those who truly hate America leave, those who love it stay and fight to protect the principles upon which the Constitution was founded, even if it means change, even if it means protesting the government (thereby exercising our constitutional rights) regardless of whatever political votemongering maneuvers the transient administrations may engage in from election to election...

The fundamentalists will tell you this is a Christian country, they will tell you that change is unpatriotic, they will pretend that distaste for the operations and motives of a transient administration is treason... if this sounds familiar it's because that's the way things worked under the British Crown, to which Thomas Jefferson's response, in the Declaration of Independence was:

-That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

It's rather humorous that fundamentalists constantly quote the sentence or two that precedes this section of the Declaration to claim that America is, in fact, a Christian, or at the very least a non-secular, nation... when in fact there is absolutely no mention of Christ anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, and the only references to religion in the Constitution which actually established the particulars of our rights, are exclusionary...The founding fathers were smart enough to know to place one's faith entirely in iconography and idolatry, or "fetishism", as SCOTS put it, both rigid and fanatical, is precisely the kind of device with which the fires of bigotry are ignited by greedy rulers who intend to keep their people divided and conquered.

If the burning of a flag can tear apart the fabric of our nation, what kind of weaklings are we?

 

"Piggy, you've overstepped your bounds. How dare you claim to be the moral superior (from other threads) when you exclaim that you are willingly in favor of killing and/or imprisonment over the burning of fabric?! Not very Christian of you... unless you're Pat Buchannan."

I never said I was moral superior to anyone so stop putting words in my mouth. The POA issue is on another thread buster. I support and will forever support the words "Under God" remaining in the POA. If you would care to not be lazy and look back at that thread and read my posts that RELIGION isn't my deciding factor on that issue. Rather HISTORY and knowing who actually founded this country does, and further more the words "Under God" isn't harming a single soul in the 48 years that it has been around. Oh and don't call me or compare me to Pat "Deep Throat" Buchannan again. It should be a federal offense to burn the flag in any protest. I'm more for a fine/imprisionment and killings being a last resort. However it's a disgusting act and the sooner it's deemed unconstitutional the better.

"The flag is a symbol of this great nation. It has gone through many design changes over the years, and I'm sure it has many more incarnations to come. The same, thankfully can be said of the nation it represents. Change happens most often when policies or actions are questioned. Oft times, this happens in form of protest, up to and including flag burning."

Yes the flag has changed over the years because we included more States into the Union and that was the soul reason. We may have to change the flag design in a few years if Puerto Rico ever becomes the 51st State. This is fine, because it's change for the better and it's introduce a new member into our Union. It has nothing to do with burning and disgracing the flag over petty anti-American reasons. Sorry but you can protest in a proper civil/legal way and not burn the flag in protest. That is the only way you will get your point across folks, and that is going through the courts and not being a bunch of daggum hooligans in the process. The MOST successful PROTESTS have been non-violent ones and people acting like humans not animals lighting things especially American flags on fire. That is over stepping the bounds and it's ugly. Your being a hypocrite when you burn the flag and then HIDE behind the very freedom that this "symbol" as you like to call it gives you. Sorry but you either love it or leave it, but my God you will not burn the flag and think your going to get away with it.

"So, metaphorically speaking, the flag to which you raise your hand every morning is the direct result of our nation's changes, up to and including acts taken by the original American protestors... the founding fathers. And to save you having to argue my point, I say "metaphorically" because that is exactly what our flag is. It stands for the ideals of these United States of America. It does NOT contain within it's multi-colored folds those ideals."

It's those very ideals which should have a light bulb go off in your head and say "don't burn the flag"

"Oh, and speaking factually, your petty threats of public beatings and gunslinging (as seen at the beginning of this topic) hold no weight on a forum as anonymous as the internet. Your comments only illustrate that you would prefer deadly violence over trying to rationalize and express your opinion... a large indication of low brain-power."

Well if your not willing to respect the flag and this country and be nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites who will hide behind the very "smybol" which gives you these rights you take for granted that you will not find in any other country then it's time for a reality check and maybe a good kick in the rear. First you should get hit in the pocket book and then if that doesn't work then more aggresive action should take place. This is my opinion and I'm not talking factual but any rational American in this country would say "burning the flag is down right wrong and it should be illegal." Go ahead and say I have low brain pow

 

Yet no one has explained the difference of pissing on a stone at Arlington Cemetary, Burning a flag, and spitting on a gold star mother. Why? Is there because there is no difference.

It is a symbol, but it should be respected, it should be treated with the honor that a Soldier's body would. The flag is a way of honoring all those who fought, bled and died for their nation, and by burning the flag you are calling the true heros of America worthless, you are saying they died for nothing, you hate them.

Oh will all the people who like the idea tell me if it is wrong for me to stop people from burning flags by turning the hose on them? Or perhaps beating the tar out of them? Afterall I would be expressing myself, I would be exercising the same rights they are. Maybe its time to start fighting fire with fire and turning the hoses on these people.

 

That is what I've been saying Jedi Xen. I agree with your post 100%. Burning the flag spits on every person who has ever fought and died for the freedom these very hypocrites want to exploit and that down right wrong.

 

"Your being a hypocrite when you burn the flag and then HIDE behind the very freedom that this "symbol" as you like to call it gives you."

So you're all for freedom as long as no one actually excercises it? Freedom is just a good idea in theory, but when people actually start acting like they're free, it's time to put a stop to it? And it's not the flag itself that gives us freedom. It's just a symbol. It's the actual people who have fought and died to preserve our freedom.

The difference between pissing on a gravestone and burning a flag is, the person pissing on the gravestone does not own said stone, whereas a person burning a flag does own that flag(if not, then that's already illegal).

Burning a flag does not hurt anyone. It may make you angry, but it does no physical harm to you. "Beating the tar" out of someone most certainly does cause physical harm.

 

I've debated this with myself and others numerous times, and here's what I've come to conclude:

The flag is a symbol, for others, it means more than your average Joe. To burn it is a sort of insult taken by many who are "patriotic" or perhaps fought or had relatives who fought in wars. However, these wars that were "fought to preserve our freedoms" also include fighting for our freedom of speech, which should not be abridged, as has been stated over and over. While some respect the flag, other respects what it stands for, and flag burning is just a true testament that the flag does indeed stand for something. The same freedoms that allow me to complain about the government through speech protect others' ability to do so through flag-burning.

 

I just remembered something that can help in the arguement as to why Flag Burning shouldn't be made illegal.

Watch the movie "The American President" it talks about flag burning because the female lead was present at a protest where a flag was burned. Or if you dont want to watch the whole movie (which is good btw) then just watch the last few minutes of it where the President is giving a press conference. It explains why we shouldn't make it illegal.

The movie is coming on sometime this month. I'll let you know tomorrow what time and channel.

 

Anyone who compares a flag burner to the 9/11 killers is as sick and demented as those terrorists. No one died for a flag. They died so we can burn the flag. It is not disrespecting them to allow flag burning. It is a testament to all they fought for. You people are too symbol-minded.

 

"Anyone who compares a flag burner to the 9/11 killers is as sick and demented as those terrorists. No one died for a flag. They died so we can burn the flag. It is not disrespecting them to allow flag burning. It is a testament to all they fought for. You people are too symbol-minded."

Symbol minded, No one died for a flag, they died so we can burn the flag. If that wasn't the biggest piece of BS I've ever heard. Sorry but were you their in the trenches with them when they died? So how the hell can you say what they died for? They certaintly didn't protect your freedom so that you could get up one morning and set fire to the American flag. The Men and Women of the United States Military take an oath to protect that flag, because it represents what we stand for in this country, and to burn it spits on the graves of those who died.

"So you're all for freedom as long as no one actually excercises it?"

Yes I'm all for freedom, and you can exercise it all you want in a civil/legal manner, but you will not run amuck and act like a bunch of animals and hooligans burning our American Flag. It's called having tact and respect and knowing how to do things right. Burning the flag will get you absolutely no where if you want change in this country. If you have a complaint then protest peacefully and legally like any civilized people would or suffer the consequenses. Besides why would you want to commit and act that the terrorist do anyway?????????????????? Also what kind of message other than hate are you looking for as symbol of burning a flag? It certainly isnt' peace and neigther is burning a cross in a front yard now is it? So you can say oh it's my right to burn the flag all you want but you had better be ready for trouble, because when you burn the flag your promoting hate and hate is what you will recieve from me and others who witness it.

 

That's fine. You'll be the one going to jail over it, not the flag burner. It isn't illegal yet. Civility is subjective. If done in a manner that will not start further fires, that does not impede traffic (pedestrian or otherwise), and does not encroach upon your personal space.....well.....that's just a difference of opinion then.

I do like how you immediately assume that all participants that oppose your views are not or have not been in the military though. Way to keep an open mind about it.