Flag burning should be unconstitutional!

"Sorry but were you their in the trenches with them when they died"

Were you?

"It's called having tact and respect and knowing how to do things right."

I haven't seen much respect from you, and you're about the most tactless person on the board. You know what they say about pots and kettles.

"Besides why would you want to commit and act that the terrorist do anyway??????????????????"

Terrorists eat. Terrorists sleep. They may be bastards, but they are human. Should we stop doing anything for fear that terrorists do it too?

For a self-proclaimed puppetmaster, you're really not very good at manipulating people. Maybe you've got hold of the wrong set of strings?

 

I WILL CLASSIFY THEM ALONG THE SAME LINES AS THE TERRRORISTS!!!!

Gee, if this debate was held 30 or 40 years ago you'd be calling everyone Commies than. Nice spelling btw.

On the other hand is if you're a citizen of the US you're buring what basically protects your right to protest in the first place and therefore morally nulls your rights to it's protection.

You have it wrong. The Flag does not protect our rights. The Consitution and the Bill of Rights does. The Flag REPRESENTS those rights and freedoms.

Now if someone went and burnt a copy of the consitution then that person is attacking America and its ideals.

I'm prone to say it should be legal because if you crack down on it, they'll just burn a copy of the constitution or something else just as stupid.

Now we wouldn't want that, do we?

IMHO, burning flags is stupid. Not because it is destroying s symbole of America, but because if you really dont like the country, get the #$%^ out. Otherwise, you are somewhat of a hyprocrate, living under the safty and protection of this nation and its laws while damning it.

For some reason everyone automatically assumes that people who burn flags hate the country which that flag represents. Why is that?

It is a symbol, but it should be respected, it should be treated with the honor that a Soldier's body would. The flag is a way of honoring all those who fought, bled and died for their nation, and by burning the flag you are calling the true heros of America worthless, you are saying they died for nothing, you hate them.

Sigh. Here we go again with the "you burn flag, so I assume you hate this country and those who died to bring this country into existance" thinking.

Ask people who burnt flags why they did it and most will tell you that they did it in protest of what the Government had done. That they DISAPPROVED of something. It does not necessarily mean that they hate the country and its ideals.

What will you say about the people who burnt and trampled on the American flag in protest to the Vietnam War?

Symbol minded, No one died for a flag, they died so we can burn the flag. If that wasn't the biggest piece of BS I've ever heard. Sorry but were you their in the trenches with them when they died? So how the hell can you say what they died for? They certaintly didn't protect your freedom so that you could get up one morning and set fire to the American flag.

And how do you know? Did you fight in the trench with them too? Did you sacrifice your life?

The Men and Women of the United States Military take an oath to protect that flag, because it represents what we stand for in this country, and to burn it spits on the graves of those who died.

Can you recite that oath for me since you seem to know so much about it? Last I checked the oath was about protecting the Consitution.

Burning the flag will get you absolutely no where if you want change in this country.

I do believe it helped put an end to the Vietnam War. It got Americas attention. I could be wrong. *shrugs*

Besides why would you want to commit and act that the terrorist do anyway??????????????????

There is a difference why Terrorists do it and why we do it. Terrorists do it because they literally hate this country and everything it stands for. And as I said before we do it in protest of an action the government has committed. NOT because we hate this country and what it stands for.

 

"Terrorists eat. Terrorists sleep. They may be bastards, but they are human. Should we stop doing anything for fear that terrorists do it too?"

I'm talking about the STUPID ACT OF BURNING THE FREAKING FLAG!!!!! Not easting or sleeping smarty.


"Gee, if this debate was held 30 or 40 years ago you'd be calling everyone Commies than. Nice spelling btw."

Sorry it's late over on the east coast. Oh and it's not "Than" it's "Then". Why not call them commies. If they don't have the basic respect for the flag then they are no better than the commies or in this case Terrorists. Anyone wanting to burn a flag in this day in America must have a death wish.

"For some reason everyone automatically assumes that people who burn flags hate the country which that flag represents. Why is that?"

Well whatever response would you like. YOUR DESTROYING A FLAG!!!!! That means you hate something, just as if you were to burn a cross in someones lawn. Your sending a aggresive message to that person, and your doing the same thing when you want to burn a flag here in America. There is no good reason to burn a flag. I don't care what the protest is, and if you using the Vietnam War as an example then you might as well pack your bags on this debate. Burning the American flag as a sign of protest during the Vietnam war was not the UNDERLINING REASON WHY THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT GOT SO MUCH ATTENTION IN THE 60'S. If you knew anything about history or the 60's for that matter then you would know that the Anti-War movement didn't really kick off until after the Tet Offensive of 1967 after this major military offensive by the VC was executed and ultimately failed and put down by the U.S after a week, however the damage was done and since this was the first TV war which is the UNDERLINING reason why the anti-war movement worked and why Americans didn't support the war. So your argument saying that burning the American flag as a sign of protest got everyones attention during the Vietnam war is very inaccurate. It was Walter Cronkite who did this, along with other journalist in the region.


"Ask people who burnt flags why they did it and most will tell you that they did it in protest of what the Government had done. That they DISAPPROVED of something. It does not necessarily mean that they hate the country and its ideals."

Yeah I would really like to know what they are complaining so much about that they would commit a terrible ugly act as in burning the flag as a sign of protest. Sorry but you can protest in other ways than this. They can dissaprove all they want about something but there is NO EXCUSE FOR EVER BURNING THE FLAG!!!!!

 

So, where's that military's oath that says they protect the flag? Huh?

Here is something you should consider: You say that burning the flag promotes hate. I say banning the buring of the flag promotes banning protests of any sort.

 

"Here is something you should consider: You say that burning the flag promotes hate. I say banning the buring of the flag promotes banning protests of any sort."

How is it banning protests? Nobody is telling you that you cannot protest for something, but there is a proper civil way of doing it and burning the flag isn't one of them, and the more I think about it, you are not protected under the Constitution or the Bill of Rights stating you can just run amuck and burn a flag for the hell of it, because you feel like it.

You may gather peacefully and protest something but you CANNOT go wild and it's when radicals and people who protest stuff go wild that someone gets a nice beat down. That is something that those anti-war demonstrators learned the hard way, and I know first hand because my father was an MP who had to put down two violent protests in 1968 after the crowd got to wild. They were all rounded up and thrown into RFK stadium and arrested and rightfully so since in one case they tried to take over the Pentagon. Don't always believe what you see on TV, because my Dad loves when they show the people in Washington as being innocent people when as he says they were anything but. Instead of sticking flowers in the barells of the rifles of the soldiers they would spit and take dumbs right in front of them.

 

I give up. Not because your right and I'm wrong, but because I'm tired of arguing and I'm tired literally.

 

"After being exposed to opposition claims, a majority of respondents reject each of them. Sixty-six percent do not think an amendment would limit free speech; 53 percent do not think it is an inconsequential reason to change the Constitution; 55 percent do not think the infrequency of actual flag burnings is a reason to reject a flag amendment; and 90 percent think the American flag is a unique symbol deserving special status."

There you go from the article itself. It looks like it will pass and I'm glad. Lets get it done.

 

Yes it is good to let public opinion polls rule the country.

 

90 percent think the American flag is a unique symbol deserving special status.



It's sad that I read that...

This actually shows how arrogant the American people are!

the American flag is a unique symbol

***NEWSFLASH***

every flag is an unique symbol no matter where it's from. The Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Brittish, German, French, European, Russian, Chinese, N.Korean etc. flags are all unique symbols...

Why should only the American flag get a "special" status that's absolute bull**** and selfish...

Other note, I've seen flags that are prettier that the American one...

Third note: This should actually belongs who do they hate us thread.
This are examples why I sometime dislike Americans...


We edit the whole swear out; warning

 

Jedi_Xen:

Yet no one has explained the difference of pissing on a stone at Arlington Cemetary, Burning a flag, and spitting on a gold star mother. Why? Is there because there is no difference.

No, it's because the person burning the flag generally owns it. If they're burning someone else's property, that's illegal anyway. Urinating in public is illegal, whether it's on a monument or not. Spitting on a person could be construed as assault, as well as harassment, and is therefore also punishable.

It is a symbol, but it should be respected, it should be treated with the honor that a Soldier's body would.

You're absolutely right. However, the people who protest the government obviously are not concerned with respecting that which they so vehemently protest... and they are afforded that right, provided they aren't breaking any other laws in their demonsration of protest. Logically speaking, it's reasonable to assume that anyone not protesting government isn't interested in burning a flag in the first place. I would also expect that anyone who does respect our government not beat anyone for burning a flag... because assault and battery is a crime.

The flag is a way of honoring all those who fought, bled and died for their nation, and by burning the flag you are calling the true heros of America worthless, you are saying they died for nothing, you hate them.

Maybe so... but they have a right to criticize American government and military. I'm assuming most of them pay their taxes. Now, if they are actively harassing individual soldiers, or anyone for that matter, there's a point at which they can be sued or even criminal action taken against them. Funny I didn't see too many overzealouts "patriots" rushing to pass a law that anyone who spits on Bill Clinton be drawn and quartered.

Oh will all the people who like the idea tell me if it is wrong for me to stop people from burning flags by turning the hose on them?

Or perhaps beating the tar out of them? Afterall I would be expressing myself, I would be exercising the same rights they are. Maybe its time to start fighting fire with fire and turning the hoses on these people.

This isn't going to help you at all. What you're proposing is assault and is not protected by the first amendment... Our rights are curbed where they begin to infringe on other people's rights and freedoms. Anyone who understands and respects the US Constitution should know this is the guiding principle of US law and American democracy.

First of all they (the flag burners) could file suit against you for damaging their property. Second, it is against proper custom to deliberately soil the American flag. I'm assuming that you'd be dousing the flag with water, since it's on fire, and in close proximity to those whom you intend to assault.

So then, there you are, parading as a "model citizen", and yet effectively reaking several laws, not to mention disrespecting an established flag custom. Now you've really done the flag burner a favor... because not only can they sue you for assault and, potentially, property damage, but the only proper way to dispose of a soiled or worn out flag is to burn it. (4 USC 1, 8(k)).

 

Essentially, it's about respect. I feel, and I'm sure a lot of Americans feel, that we owe a debt to the great men and women who sacrificed for our country. We cannot possibly thank them all, but we can do pay them homage by respecting what it means to be an American. These tenets are symbolized first and foremost by our flag--and not just for Americans. The rest of the world recognizes our patriotism, for lack of a better word. That's why they burn our flag, and not our money.

The act of burning a flag in protest is akin to walking up to a veteran and spitting on him. You're showing the ultimate disrespect. You're not only saying that America and American ideals are just not worth fighting for, but that you hate the people who are doing so.

But I still believe that people should be able to burn flags if they want. But not on public property. (Heck, you shouldn't be allowed to torch anything on public property).

 

The act of burning a flag in protest is akin to walking up to a veteran and spitting on him. You're showing the ultimate disrespect.

Let's just clarify that disrespecting a cloth, and disrespecting a living human being are two distinctly different things... Regardless of which cloth it is, it will never be the same as a human being, much less one who has fought for their country.

I, too, think that American Veterans themselves deserve respect... even if their leaders ordered them to fight for an unjust cause. But let's be careful to not confuse expressions of protest acted upon inanimate icons with acts of harm, violence or psychological harassment on other human beings who also have individual rights protected by the same Constitution.

We and the framers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights would be absolute hypocrites if they did not protect the right of an individual to demonstrate protest of their government.

 

Piggy, you need anger management classes.

I'm more for a fine/imprisionment and killings being a last resort. This tells me how truly little you value life and, most importantly, our way of life here in the United States. I'm appalled that you would willingly... even eagerly consider killing a human being because they don't share your viewpoint. Are you sure YOU are not the terrorist on this board??

At the present time, and likely for the rest of our lives, flag-burning is an action protected under the Constitution. Who are you to decide for me what should be legal and what should not? Likewise, who are you to implement "mob justice"? I refer to your prior statement, wherein you declared: "Anyone who burns a flag in my presense better pray that I don't catch them, because when I do well you know what I mean."

This is my opinion and I'm not talking factual...
I concur with that statement wholeheartedly, Piggy. You are NOT talking factual.

Lastly, I'll have you know that--for the record--I have never engaged in, watched, or been associated with those who did burn an American flag. So I'd thank you to not call my a terrorist, or someone closely or remotely resembling one.

Truth be told (and I'm sure I'll be flamed for this in these hyper-patriotic times) I don't even own an American flag. My house is a flag-free zone. Sadly, that gives me nothing to burn, and makes me less of an American than you. Special Notice: beware large concentrations of sarcasm.

 

Yeah, Piggy is really in a bind now...

He states that the words "Under God" don't HARM anybody and can be ignored by millions of school children every morning, during a state sponsored Pledge-time in state sponsored schools. Apparently, these kids can shut their ears off to the words with NO HARM.

However, he states that a flag-burning harms him! And, it harms him so egregiously that he would brutally assault and/or shoot the flag-burner! This is comical.

Piggy, think about it, you said it yourself in the pledge thread, just shut your eyes and ignore it (just like those two little words can be ignored) and it causes NO HARM, to use your logic, since it is so easily ignored. Furthermore, you are saying that children can do this every morning for their entire childhood.


Another thing that puts Piggy in a bind is: Flag burning has been heard by the Supreme Court and ruled on. Piggy says himself that if you won't follow the laws of the land, then leave. So that applies to Piggy, does it not? Or does Mister-"I can spell then but not you're" Pigfeet think he has the right to protest the flag-burning issue without harm being threatened? Or without someone saying "Love it or leave it" to him?

 

How ironic, Mister_Bunny.

 

I find it telling that while those who support the right to burn the flag (the right, not necessarily the action) have continually explained their views from many different angles, using many varrying arguments and ideas; the ever-patriotic Pigfeet has more or less repeated the same argument again and again, while merely sprinkling it with more and more frighteningly fanatical threats of harm to those who may disagree with him.

I think that it is fair to say that our dear patriotic swine simply hasn't the perspicacity to wrap his brain around the concept of our country's liberties and all that that may entail. If he wants to be porcine, let him roll in his own filth as he seems so apt to do.

 

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Sir Winston Churchil

 

I like that quote.

 

Quick question Pigfeet:

Are you holding the US flag above all others here or would you want the same respect for all flags of nations?

After all, would you advocate treating an American who burnt an Iraqi flag (or in the in the old days a USSR flag)in the same manner as those that burn the stars and stripes? These flags represent the beliefs, ideals and sacrifices of these nations too. Should they be given the same rights?

Or specifically: a friend of mine has been murdered by terrorists. The IRA bombed him. Would you allow me to burn an Irish tricolour in Boston?

 

Let's not go attacking PIGFEET, here. Debate, don't argue.

The same goes for you, PIGFEET. Can you be just a tad less confrontational? Good.

 

Obi Wan Bergkamp, you pose an interestin question. If I was to burn the flag of the Taliban Malitia in the streets, people would probably applaud me. If I was to singe an Israli flag, I would be seen as anti-semetic. And if I torched an American flag, I suddenly am sympithseing with the terrorists.

BTW, sorry 'bout your friend.

 

Vaderbait

Well then apparently the clause isn't as perfect as we think it is. If you say it's true, than it must be, and I'm looking at this wrong. I mean, "make no law respecitng religion" seems like a communist phrase, whereas "should make no law restricting religion" fits with the rest of the constitution.

Separation of church and state originated (or, at least, was first implemented on a substantial scale) with the advent of the US Constitution. The USSR's constitution contained a judiciary, too--does this mean that courts are a "communist phrase"?

StarFire

"Respecting" is used in the sense "concerning". In other words, Congress will not regulate religion.

Well, executive powers are granted by legislation, so it applies to executive acts as well, and is applicable to the states through the 14th amendment. "establishment" is the key word, not "respecting"--Congress, the executive, and the states are all enjoined from establishing religion.

DARTHPIGFEET

It should be a federal offense to burn the flag in any protest. I'm more for a fine/imprisionment and killings being a last resort. However it's a disgusting act and the sooner it's deemed unconstitutional the better.

The flag must stand for something, otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned about it. As George Bush constantly points out far too often (without seeming to understand it), freedom is the essence of the US nation, and its flag. You may be disgusted by it; one of the US's founding principles was to protect "disgusting" expression from being censored to the greatest extent possible.

Go ahead and say I have low brain power and yes I get very upset when I hear Americans saying it's within their constitutional rights to burn the American flag. That kind of thinking is a prime example of 100% low brain power to me, and your no better than the very terrorist SOB's who hate America and oh guess what they burn our flag all the time in hatred and as a symbol of protest so if you want to lower yourself to those SOB's then fine, but don't expect to get a warm welcome in this country and don't be shocked when someone throws a hard object at you in this country when they see you burning the flag.

I wouldn't necessarily say you have low brain power. I would say that you have an overlarge penchant for rhetoric and rant, rather than coherent argument. Terrorists kill and maim people--a clear violation of their rights. Flag burning, on the other hand, is a symbolic gesture that does not violate the rights of another person, and it is not equivalent to planting bombs.

That is what I've been saying Jedi Xen. I agree with your post 100%. Burning the flag spits on every person who has ever fought and died for the freedom these very hypocrites want to exploit and that down right wrong.

The freedom that people fought and died for includes the freedom to criticise, and to make whatever symbolic and intellectual gestures may be necessary if you are engaged in legitimate protest. You may call it "hypocrisy"--but freedom is nothing if not universal.

Why not call them commies. If they don't have the basic respect for the flag then they are no better than the commies or in this case Terrorists. Anyone wanting to burn a flag in this day in America must have a death wish.

Once again, you equate flag burning (and communism, incidentally) with acts of terrorism. Holding a political opinion is not equivalent to blowing people up--least of all in the "land of the free".

Burning the American flag as a sign of protest during the Vietnam war was not the UNDERLINING REASON WHY THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT GOT SO MUCH ATTENTION IN THE 60'S.

You've just highlighted one of the ways in which flag-burning can be a legitimate expression. The Vietnam War protesters were saying that the war was so despicable, it made them hate their own country.

Darth_S

 

I have been meaning to say this last night about symbols but kept forgetting.

When a person or persons begin to make a symbol far more important than the ideals which that symbol represents, those people have lost the concept of those ideals.

As I have said before, symbols can be replaced, ideals cannot.

Preventing the flag from getting burned will not stop people from say, burning a copy of the consitution in protest of the Government. I would rather have people burn the flag than our own consitution.

 

Let me relate a story about how deep this country is regarding the flag.

Shortly after 9/11, there was a letter in the paper from a person who saw that photo of Ground Zero. You know, with the tattered and burnt flag flying in the background? Well, she said, "What a testament to our resolve and strength that agfter all this the flag still remains."

I almost threw the paper out the window. What a brain washed idiot. The flag is not a testament to anything, but well made fabric(probably made in Taiwan). The real testament to our resolve is the firefighters and people helping dig for survivors and clean up the rubble. People put too much stock in a symbol.

And earlier, i stated that people died so we can burn the flag. Now, I know that is not what they had in mind, but they died for our rights. One of those rights, most importantly, is the right to express yourself. If that means you want to burn a flag, go ahead.

By the by, burning a flag does not mean you hate the country. It means whatever you want it to mean. If you do it to protest the Supreme Court, or the President, the message is up to you.

 

By the by, burning a flag does not mean you hate the country. It means whatever you want it to mean. If you do it to protest the Supreme Court, or the President, the message is up to you.

I disagree. I can't just make the flag symbolize the Organization for a United Martian Swamp if I want it to. I can delude myself into thinking that the flag represents the OUMS, but it will not in fact represent such.
As the American flag symbolizes America and her ideals, so your treatment of it symbolizes your respect for those ideals.