Flag burning should be unconstitutional!

By the by, burning a flag does not mean you hate the country. It means whatever you want it to mean. If you do it to protest the Supreme Court, or the President, the message is up to you.

I disagree. I can't just make the flag symbolize the Organization for a United Martian Swamp if I want it to. I can delude myself into thinking that the flag represents the OUMS, but it will not in fact represent such.


JediLord meant a person's reason for burning the flag. Not the meaning of the flag.

As the American flag symbolizes America and her ideals, so your treatment of it symbolizes your respect for those ideals.

I disagree. You can still respect the ideals which that flag represents and still burn the flag in protest of something. Now burning the Consitution and Bill of Rights is disrespecting the ideals of this country. Because you are burning the ideals.

You have the right to dislike the desecration of the Flag, but you do not have the right to take another's right away because they are protesting by means of which you do not like.

 

Thanks for the assist fellow Thrawn fan. you are the collest chiss around.

I would never burn the flag. But, i would fight for ANYONE'S right to burn it.

 

The flag may be a symbol of our ideals... but that's what it is, a symbol.

Burning a symbol of something is not equal to burning the thing itself. What's funnier is that many of the people who have been arguing in favor of flag burning are also in favor of the 1954 Act of Congress that changed the Pledge of Allegiance, despite it's unconstitutionality.

If burning the flag were made illegal, then protesting or disrespecting the Constitution and Bill of Rights would certainly be considered Treason... as the Constitution, and not the Flag, is the true cornerstone of our democracy.

The majority of Americans may want a bill to be passed banning flag burning, but the majority of Americans also do not know their rights, nor understand them, nor understand the history of this nation, nor does the majority know the first ten amendments to the Constitution, nor do they understand the US Flag Code...

Instead of putting our faith wholly and entirely in symbols... the kind of blind icon worship our forefathers had become so disgusted with so as to declare independence from one of the largest empires in history... How about supporting the actual people who defend our rights?

Coolguy mentioned at the beginning of this thread that we should have more respect for the flag after 9/11. Did we have any less respect for the flag after 9/11? What did the flag itself do that warrants more respect since then? Did it save the lives of thousands of people? Did it stay to fight and protect the lives of thousands of Americans and non-Americans?

Also, do we owe every police officer, including the corrupt ones, a greater measure of respect just because of 9/11? How about showing more respect to the individuals who actually participated in the disaster relief and recovery? It is particularly them who are owed a great deal of respect, and thanks, for what they did.

Instead I see people rallying around a President whose administration has, for the most part, urinated all over the Constitution since September 11th. His leadership has not improved our economy. His leadership cannot bring back the dead. His leadership has not made any significant and striking changes in US foreign policy... still coddling the Israelites, telling the Palestinians once again they are to blame for everything (as if Israel has an astonishing human rights record), and unanimously declaring himself judge, jury and executioner of the so-called "axis of evil" (What kind of a President says "We're gunna getum! We're gunna smokem outta their holes!" Does he think he's a comic book hero... or maybe he thinks he's playing Cowboys and Indians?) He has deflected criticism of his dealings with Enron by promising to arrest every corrupt executive (other than Enron's, apparently). He has deflected criticism of the FBI's miserable handling of 9/11 by rushing to pre-emptively strike whomever we feel might be a threat, instituting better missile defenses, hiring more people inside our borders (Instead of letting for-profit organizations hire non-citizens, now the ever-efficient federal government will hire incompetent Citizens! It's brilliant, I tell you!), but not at our borders. He constantly satiates the appetites of fundamentalist conservatives eveyrwhere by seemingly appointing himself as the pontiff of morality... as if morality, missiles and Worldcom have anything to do with stopping four guys with boxcutters from getting into this country and on to our planes.

I'll tell you a strange thing... I was reading to my wife, who recently emigrated to America from Canada, the Declaration of Independence. When I got down to the list of grievances against the King and read through it... she didn't realize I was still reading the Declaration. She thought it was talking about George Bush...

Of course people will call me unpatriotic for these comments... ignoring the fact that the founders of this nation were once called unpatriotic for the same reasons. Not even counting anyone on these boards, almost all of the people who have ever complained tha

 

"At the present time, and likely for the rest of our lives, flag-burning is an action protected under the Constitution. Who are you to decide for me what should be legal and what should not?"

Oh I'm not going to be the one telling you anything when it's made into law. Oh and it will soon not be protected under the Constitution. So I will not be the one who decides if it will be legal.

"Truth be told (and I'm sure I'll be flamed for this in these hyper-patriotic times) I don't even own an American flag. My house is a flag-free zone. Sadly, that gives me nothing to burn, and makes me less of an American than you. Special Notice: beware large concentrations of sarcasm"

You don't own a flag. Fine,good, whatever.



"He states that the words "Under God" don't HARM anybody and can be ignored by millions of school children every morning, during a state sponsored Pledge-time in state sponsored schools. Apparently, these kids can shut their ears off to the words with NO HARM.

However, he states that a flag-burning harms him! And, it harms him so egregiously that he would brutally assault and/or shoot the flag-burner! This is comical.

Piggy, think about it, you said it yourself in the pledge thread, just shut your eyes and ignore it (just like those two little words can be ignored) and it causes NO HARM, to use your logic, since it is so easily ignored. Furthermore, you are saying that children can do this every morning for their entire childhood.


Another thing that puts Piggy in a bind is: Flag burning has been heard by the Supreme Court and ruled on. Piggy says himself that if you won't follow the laws of the land, then leave. So that applies to Piggy, does it not? Or does Mister-"I can spell then but not you're" Pigfeet think he has the right to protest the flag-burning issue without harm being threatened? Or without someone saying "Love it or leave it" to him? "

I'm in no bind. This are TWO DIFFERENT issues which somehow can be linked. Like I've stated before time and time again. I do not and will never agree on changing things which don't need to be changed only because a small number of people in this country want it change, Hense "under God" it's been there for 48 years and hasn't hurt a soul, but the country is being taken over by radical liberals more and more and they love to attack these kinds of very foundations.

As far as burning the flag it makes our country look bad from the outside when it's OWN CITIZENS want to burn it for some petty protest. It isn't and should never be a protected under the constitution as a form of free speech or whatever lame excuse you want to throw out. The fact of the matter is this. The flag represents our country both foreign and domestic. When we aren't present in some other country with man power, yet we have a building like an embassy or something, what is used to show that the building is a place where Americans are located at?????? The American flag. When we are in War time what is the item worn on many U.S. equipment, uniforms etc???? The American Flag. What is presented to a family of a fallen soldier in battle during the funeral? A folded American Flag. What was the special item taken from Ground Zero in New York to Afganistan to be raised I believe at Fort Rhino? The American Flag. Do you see where I'm going here? Probably not, but the American flag is MORE THAN a symbol folks and to burn it in protest is a down right terrible thing to do. I don't care what your protesting you should never lower your standards that low than to burn the American Flag. As someone mentioned earlier the only way to properly dispose of the American flag is to burn it. VERY TRUE it is the proper way to get rid of old flags, however there is a standard ceremony which goes into that process, and it doesn't involve people protesting in a mob burning the American flag.

Love it or leave it I still agree with, because if you don't have the simple respect for the American flag then you should re-think where you want to live, because the majority here in America will no

 

I disagree. You can still respect the ideals which that flag represents and still burn the flag in protest of something. Now burning the Consitution and Bill of Rights is disrespecting the ideals of this country. Because you are burning the ideals.

I disagree. How are ink stains on a piece of paper, albeit intelligently arranged, ideals? Are words ideals? No, words are simply a pre-arranged way to communicate ideas.
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights may spell out the ideas, but they do not equal the ideals, especially not the spirit of the ideals.

A flag is not just a marker that says this is an American product. The red on the flag represents valour and courage; the white, purity and innocence; the blue, vigilance and perseverance and justice.
In other words, the flags is just as representative of the ideals that America champions as the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. It is a symbol of American values.

If I intentionally desecrate my flag, I am intentionally spitting on everything that it represents.

To set the record straight, soldiers have died and been seriously wounded for the actual flag, because it's a policy to never leave it behind.

I still think people should be allowed to burn flags if they want.

 

In my view, as much as I hate it, burning the US flag is a form of free speech. It is the ULTIMATE form of protest, and though it sickens me to no end that someone would have such problems with my government that they would desecrate the symbol that members of my family have fought for, I would fight to retain their right to do so.

 

Oh I'm not going to be the one telling you anything when it's made into law. Oh and it will soon not be protected under the Constitution.

Am I to assume you have an inside contact somewhere, because that is not the perspective currently being represented in the news media.

As far as burning the flag it makes our country look bad from the outside when it's OWN CITIZENS want to burn it for some petty protest.

Yeah, like all of the murder, capitalistic scandals, bigotry, and sex scandals don't make us look bad! I don't think the world is judging us by our flag-burnings...which (I must say) is a VERY rare occassion! And on a side note, Florida didn't help the US's reputation any back in Nov '01.

You all are saying I have low brain power and such when all you want to do or would support others to do is burn a flag which is more of a angry aggresive move on your part rather than a symbolic gesture.

I can't speak for others, but I question your capacity to produce rational thought based solely on the premise that you equate setting fire to a symbolic fabric with destroying the lives of countless human beings. Those two acts are not equal, unless you hold very little respect for life (which would contradict the very meaning of the flag you aim to protect... as it symbolizes the protection of LIFE, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness).

...burning the U.S. flag in the 1950's meant you were a communist supporter...

Riiight. Yes, the only reason in the 1950's that a flag would have been burned was because they would have been commies. Everyone knows that this was the ONLY anti-American issue back then. (again... sarcasm intended.)

I'm thankful you don't hold any high-ranking government office.

 

Excuse me, but I have a question about the war in which American troops fought and died for the flag. Which war was that again?

 

... my last post, at the very beginning meant to say tat "many of the people who have been arguing against flag burning"...

 

Look Cheveyo I'm just saying that one day burning the flag could very well be deemed unconstitutional and then you can't do it.

That is all I'm saying about it.

"And on a side note, Florida didn't help the US's reputation any back in Nov '01."

Your dead wrong here. It didn't make us look bad if either Gore or Bush was elected because of what happened in Florida because it showed the REST OF THE WORLD that we can hold elections, have a controversey like we have and still elect someone without FIRING A BULLET, BOMB, OR HAVING SOME SORT OF MILITARY CUE which happens all over the world when thinks like that happen. So we should as an American people be very proud to say "hey we can have all this crap go on over an election and not kill each other. Rather just cuss at each other" So your wrong in using this example.


"I can't speak for others, but I question your capacity to produce rational thought based solely on the premise that you equate setting fire to a symbolic fabric with destroying the lives of countless human beings. Those two acts are not equal, unless you hold very little respect for life (which would contradict the very meaning of the flag you aim to protect... as it symbolizes the protection of LIFE, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness)."

Why don't you just speak for yourself before putting your foot in your mouth and start speaking for others. Fine if you don't like my opinion and you think I'm dumb without saying I'm dumb by saying "low brain power" since it would be a personal flame by you onto me which means your TROLLING in that instance then who is sinking to a lower level. I disagree with you and I too question your brain compacity for not only supporting someone in buring the American flag but to sink as low as to accuse someone you don't even know like myself that I'm dumb. I've always said on these boards that I'm a shoot from the hip and straight to the point kind of person. That is the way I am. If you don't like my bluntness which sounds a lot like a rant in the written form then sorry, but we can't have a phone conversation here and you might see things differently if you heard my speak it rather than write it.


"Riiight. Yes, the only reason in the 1950's that a flag would have been burned was because they would have been commies. Everyone knows that this was the ONLY anti-American issue back then. (again... sarcasm intended.)

I'm thankful you don't hold any high-ranking government office."

No but in the 1950's if you knew your history which you don't in this case then you would have been called a commie bastard. I wasn't alive back then but that is what you would have heard. You can be sarcastic all you want but go ahead and give me another big issue of the 1950's in which you would burn the American flag. Probably the only other issue would be the civil rights movement and maybe the attacks on Unions since they were seen as communist. Other than that in the 1950's I don't see any other issues at hand.


"To set the record straight, soldiers have died and been seriously wounded for the actual flag, because it's a policy to never leave it behind."

That is right, but I cannot say or do what you said by saying people have the RIGHT to spit on those who died and were wounded to protect that flag. It's called respect and lacking respect for those people and I will never agree to that. This is one of those situations or issues which should be like a catch 22 or a have special circumstances to it. You can have freedom of speech but destroying a American flag is down right wrong and you just don't go there.

Another thing I consider this issue of burning the American Flag 10000000 times more important than the issue of the POA, and that is why I'm 100000000 times more adiment on not burning the American flag. I would agree to changing "Under God" to "Under the Creator" but will not budge on this issue for anything.

 

That is right, but I cannot say or do what you said by saying people have the RIGHT to spit on those who died and were wounded to protect that flag. It's called respect and lacking respect for those people and I will never agree to that.

I completely agree, it shows an utter disrespect. However, once we begin to regulate what people can and cannot respect, we lose our free society.

 

Yes it is good to let public opinion polls rule the country.

I propose we put this to a vote come November. See who overwhelmingly wins (and it wont be the flag burners). Thats fair, the government of the people, by the people and for the people letting the people vote on this issue.

Why should only the American flag get a "special" status that's absolute bull**** and selfish...

Because the US can't tell people in other countries what to do. For a flag of a foreign nation to be burned in another country isn't nearly as horrible as people of their own country disrespecting it.

Other note, I've seen flags that are prettier that the American one...

Purely opinion. I disagree, I have yet to see a flag as beautiful as the US flag. No other flag brings a tear to my eye, or makes my heart soar. Does that make me fanatical? Ask me if I give a crap.

No, it's because the person burning the flag generally owns it. If they're burning someone else's property, that's illegal anyway. Urinating in public is illegal, whether it's on a monument or not. Spitting on a person could be construed as assault, as well as harassment, and is therefore also punishable.

Though urinating in public is illegal it is still a form of protest. Spitting on a person is illegal, but it is still a form of protest, look at the 60s and 70s when the soldiers where returning from Vietnam. I am all for passing a law saying that Uncle Sam owns all US flags and that the destruction without the proper ceremony is illegal and will result in a hefty fine and or jail time.

And earlier, i stated that people died so we can burn the flag. Now, I know that is not what they had in mind, but they died for our rights.

Funny, I guarantee you if you ask the veterans of all our past wars, currently serving, or peacetime vets, they will give you an overwhelming, "You better not try to burn the flag."

Excuse me, but I have a question about the war in which American troops fought and died for the flag. Which war was that again?

It happened quite a bit in the US Civil War, it happened in the two world wars, Korea, American Revolution, War of 1812, Mexican-American War, the Indian Wars, the war against the Moors in the Phillippines, Spainish American War. A better question to ask is what war did it not happen in. Our flag didnt really go into combat in Vietnam or Desert Storm but if I recall one story right several soldiers in Vietnam were killed keeping the Viet Cong from taking the flag during a raid on the base.

 

I aspire to be Jedi Xen.

"Though urinating in public is illegal it is still a form of protest. Spitting on a person is illegal, but it is still a form of protest, look at the 60s and 70s when the soldiers where returning from Vietnam. I am all for passing a law saying that Uncle Sam owns all US flags and that the destruction without the proper ceremony is illegal and will result in a hefty fine and or jail time."

I agree. So it should be a Federal Offense correct?

"Excuse me, but I have a question about the war in which American troops fought and died for the flag. Which war was that again?"

I think this statement shows the ultimate example of LOW BRAIN POWER!!!!! TAKE A BOW MISTER BUNNY!!!

"Funny, I guarantee you if you ask the veterans of all our past wars, currently serving, or peacetime vets, they will give you an overwhelming, "You better not try to burn the flag."

Darn right. Those veterans would not stand for that kind behavior in any way.

I also agree that a vote should be done in November and you would see that flag burners would be in the minority here in this country.

 

Deep Throat is lurking again...


So, intelligently arranged ink stains have no real value, but intelligently arranged colored fibers do?

I think that there is no distinction. They both have value. It's just that the flag is a more visible symbol because it's easier to recreate.

 

I also agree that a vote should be done in November and you would see that flag burners would be in the minority here in this country.

The United States is a government of laws, not men. You screw with that and this country will start going down the drain.

 

Because the US can't tell people in other countries what to do. For a flag of a foreign nation to be burned in another country isn't nearly as horrible as people of their own country disrespecting it.



That doesn't explain why it should get a special status...

Purely opinion. I disagree, I have yet to see a flag as beautiful as the US flag. No other flag brings a tear to my eye, or makes my heart soar. Does that make me fanatical? Ask me if I give a crap.

your patriotic feelings are in the way. Everytime I rate a country flag I'll never let my patriotic too cloud my judgement
Try it once and you'll see there are prettier flags out there

 

Why don't you just speak for yourself before putting your foot in your mouth and start speaking for others.

I believe that is why I said that I CANNOT speak for others, then gave my own opinion. And when did I put my foot in my mouth? I believe everything I have stated "as fact" has been factually documented. If I'm wrong at any point, please illustrate with proof and I'll gladly retract my statement(s).

No but in the 1950's if you knew your history which you don't in this case then you would have been called a commie bastard. I wasn't alive back then but that is what you would have heard.

Fortunately for me, we as a nation have grown up a little, and no longer resort to McCarthyism.... or do we?

...give me another big issue of the 1950's in which you would burn the American flag.

You have already given my answer for me. I was about to suggest the Civil Rights movement, although off hand I do not recall an instance of flag burning. But then again, I don't recall any "Communist Anti-American" flag-burning rallies inside the borders of the United States in the 50's either. Regardless, you have already provided your own answer, in that there WERE other internal issues taking place at that time in history.

Fine if you don't like my opinion and you think I'm dumb without saying I'm dumb by saying "low brain power" since it would be a personal flame by you onto me which means your TROLLING in that instance then who is sinking to a lower level.

To clarify, I wrote: Your comments only illustrate that you would prefer deadly violence over trying to rationalize and express your opinion... a large indication of low brain-power. That was to suggest not that you are "dumb", as you say, but that you are not thinking rationally or clearly. Had I thought you to be "dumb", I would have labeled you as such. I see where my statement can be construed as Trolling, and I accept full responsibility for it. I also stand behind my statement wholeheartedly, as you have yet to show me otherwise. If you are, in fact, thinking coherently and still believe a slip of fabric is worth more than human life, than you are truly an individual to be feared by society.

Public Urination, spitting on someone, and flag burning are the same? Public Urination is illegal because it can cause health risks (especially if everyone did it). Spitting on someone is illegal because it is a form of personal assault and infringement. Flag burning--while disrespectful--does not cause public or personal "physical" harm. Unless the fire gets out of hand, at which point the culprit can be rightly charged with negligent arson, reckless endangerment, and/or 3rd degree manslaughter (or attempted), depending on what or who catches fire.

A better question to ask is what war did it not happen in.

I believe you are again confusing the flag, itself, with the United States and its ideals. My uncle did not die for a slip of fabric. He died defending his nation. The two are not the same concept; please do not belittle the deaths of so many by suggesting they are.

 

"Excuse me, but I have a question about the war in which American troops fought and died for the flag. Which war was that again?"

I think this statement shows the ultimate example of LOW BRAIN POWER!!!!! TAKE A BOW MISTER BUNNY!!!

Insert foot into mouth. I think it's relatively obvious that Mister_Bunny has an ulterior motive behind this question. The first war in which our troops fought and died for our flag was the Revolutionary War against the tyranny of our government at the time. The irony of mentioning veterans to justify violating our rights should now be blindingly obvious.

 

"TAKE A BOW MISTER BUNNY!!!"

Am I the only one who finds that sentence hilarious?

 

Nope, Saint, I'm right there with ya.

 

Flag burning is a misdemeanor in most places. I believe that that is appropriate. Making it unconstitutional is a waste of time that could be spent on more important bills.

 

"You have already given my answer for me. I was about to suggest the Civil Rights movement, although off hand I do not recall an instance of flag burning. But then again, I don't recall any "Communist Anti-American" flag-burning rallies inside the borders of the United States in the 50's either. Regardless, you have already provided your own answer, in that there WERE other internal issues taking place at that time in history."

That is right during the Civil Rights movement where you had a class of people in this nation being treated as second class people and you didn't see them burning a American flag now did they. As to my answer about "your own answer" I was simply saying that because I was asked by someone else on this board that I would have called someone a commie for doing this in the 1950's, and to put myself in the shoes of someone during the 1950's I would have said yes. I'm putting myself in somones shoes back in the 50's. I'm not putting our value system or mine into that answer. That is something people need to learn to do when talking about history. You cannot put 21st century morals and values into 18th or 19th century vaules and morals.

"you are not thinking rationally or clearly. Had I thought you to be "dumb", I would have labeled you as such. I see where my statement can be construed as Trolling, and I accept full responsibility for it. I also stand behind my statement wholeheartedly, as you have yet to show me otherwise. If you are, in fact, thinking coherently and still believe a slip of fabric is worth more than human life, than you are truly an individual to be feared by society."

Allright are you ready to quote me this time. I'm completely rational as I write this. I think in MY OPINION that if a mob or large group of protesters start lighting flag or flags on fire then deadly force should be used **** ONLY **** if it is to put down the mob which could turn into something worse like a riot in which you can use by law deadly force. Look it up and you will see. If you want to peacefully protest in a civil and legal way then fine but burning the flag means your asking for trouble.

I think it should be a FEDERAL OFFENSE punishable by a LARGE FINE or jail time. That is what I want more than anything. Hit them in the pocket book and take some of those freedoms they love to use away when they want to be hypocrites about it.

"I believe that is why I said that I CANNOT speak for others, then gave my own opinion. And when did I put my foot in my mouth? I believe everything I have stated "as fact" has been factually documented. If I'm wrong at any point, please illustrate with proof and I'll gladly retract my statement(s). "

You have given your opinion only. If your broad opinion on the 1st ammendment and other laws granting free speech which are also "broad" in description means your not stating facts rather "interpretation" of what you think your free speech rights stand for. I've done the same thing.

That is why I say put it to a vote here in America whether or not you can burn the flag. I guarantee you 80 to 90% of this country would say "No" to buring the flag.

"Insert foot into mouth. I think it's relatively obvious that Mister_Bunny has an ulterior motive behind this question. The first war in which our troops fought and died for our flag was the Revolutionary War against the tyranny of our government at the time. The irony of mentioning veterans to justify violating our rights should now be blindingly obvious."

Right the War for Independence was the first war in which what we now know as the flag of the United States was defended for. However keep in mind there were no States then just 13 colonies. We were against Great Britan and therefore you would be fighting against the flag of Great Britan.

Bunny's post was a smart *** remark nothing more. However since the Revolutionary War took place soldiers have fought and died protecting what that flag stands for and that some people want to use what that flag stands for to burn it. Do you see the dilema folks. It's l

 

The flag is not the heart of this nation. The personal freedoms and liberties, and structure of the government of the United States of America, is the heart of this nation.

How dare you assume that a symbol of the heart of our nation is equal to the heart of our nation.

If you believe that, why not go buy yourself a nice new car for only a few bucks. To use your logic, the hood ornament is all you need.

 

Pigfeet, it's very hard to take you seriously when you equate burning a flag with killing 3,000 people.

 

Right the War for Independence was the first war in which what we now know as the flag of the United States was defended for. However keep in mind there were no States then just 13 colonies.

So? In what way does that change the point I made? Saying we fought against Great Britain only proves my point further... the colonies were under the Commonwealth of Great Britain. Essentially, our government was Great Britain's government at that time. We fought against our own government for our independence. How difficult is it to understand that?

We were against Great Britan and therefore you would be fighting against the flag of Great Britan.

???

Let's not mix metaphors. Saying we "fought for our flag" is a symbolic statement. We fought for our ideals... not for the flag itself. Then you say we fought against the British flag, muddling my entire point that we fought against the British government... OUR government of the time.

Don't you at all find it ironic that you're suggesting we protect the flag by making it an exception to the freedoms that flag symbolizes? Soldiers fought and died throughout our history not to protect our flag, but the freedoms it represents. If the flag itself is burned, the freedoms do not go away... but if the flag still stands, because our freedoms were burned... what then does that flag come to symbolize? Tyranny.

Tyranny under the British flag is precisely what the revolutionaries were fighting against.

This is the problem I have with fundamentalists... as they put their Bible above their God, so too do they put their Flag above their nation and freedoms. Of course, from religious fundamentalists who demonstrate a rather ironic historical obssession with symbology, ceremony, idolatry and iconography of various kinds, this lack of focus on substance and meaning comes as no big surprise to me.