Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. Fractalsponge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    I don't really have the time these days to keep up with all the threads I'd like to, but I'd like to chime in that the some of the common criticisms of the ISD are not really iron-clad.

    In the history of warship design, when the result is unusual, given the choice of explaining it with a) "hur hur, incompetence!" or b) "there was probably a confluence of technical and logistical factors that caused this, because no one likes to muck about with expensive complex weapons systems," bet on B).

    Reactor:
    The whole "exposed" business is somewhat specious, given a) shields, and b) The structure of the bulb could easily support just as much armor as the surrounding planar hull surfaces. The cross-sections do not show this explicitly, but there is more than enough space to support the demonstrated thicknesses that do exist.

    Also, extending the dagger shape to encompass the reactor might well have led to an unacceptable increase in mass, rather than just separately armoring the part of the reactor that didn't completely fit. One might argue that the reactor had the size was determined by what was necessary to support the military functions of the ship, and that the hull form was the best compromise between extra mass, protection, and the ability to provide the space necessary to support those functions. In a universe where astromech droids can handle FTL navigation, it is entirely possible that KDY had sufficient computational power to run enough simulations to yield a final hull design was the optimal compromise of various factors. Keep in mind the real world precedence of shaping and thinning transverse armor bulkheads and barbette structures to save weight; the goal is always to provide the maximum practicable protection. Even the largest non-Treaty limited battleships (Yamato) employed the flying deck and other such design features to bring down size and cost.

    Bridge:
    Raising the sensor globes as far above the hull as possible is not really hard to explain; electronics and sensors are often isolated to minimize interference with other systems.

    The relative exposure of the bridge (say, compared to a deep hull CIC) might have been quite deliberate. The bridges and control areas of many battleships built after WWI were relatively poorly protected compared to the vitals. It was accepted to improve stability, reduce overall armor weight, and simplify the organization of space (see the "all-or-nothing" concept). Given the presence of shields, and the fact that ISDs are obviously not designed to specifically combat swarming attacks by small craft, there might be similar mechanisms at work in the design of the ISD superstructure.
    Last edited by Fractalsponge, Sep 21, 2012
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Given that the Tector's reactor doesn't bulge- maybe the factor that made the difference, was the launch bays?

    If the Imperial was a modification of the Tector (rather than vice versa) that might have forced the reactor outward to make space for the bays.

    Not sure why the Allegiance has both bulging reactor and no launch bays though.
  3. Fractalsponge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    The bulge probably exists because the reactor size is fixed for the power you need, but the hull size is the minimum practicable to hold everything it needs to hold. A bigger hull than you need requires more power to move and material to build. If it's roughly as effective to armor a bulb and beef up your shields as it is to have a bigger, more expensive, and harder to power hull, there's no reason not to go with the bulb.

    There's nothing saying the Tector actually has the same hull as the ISD though. ISDI and ISDII have different hull forms, and those are specifically noted to be subclasses.
    Zeta1127 and darthscott3457 like this.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Are there any pictures of the Tector model? We see the belly of the ship in the movie- but we don't know what the top looks like.
  5. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Based on the ROTJ opening battle shot, they appear to be similar to the Imperial/Victory/Procursator/Allegiance profile when seen from afar. Unless there's an explanation turning all the excess background ships into Victorys or some other class. 33 Imperials at the battle and 3 Tectors, according to EGTW. This image shows 37 ISD-like ships in addition to the Executor, so at least 4 of them have to be non-ISDs. 3 Tectors at most and at least one non-Imperial/non-Tector.

    [IMG]
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Sep 21, 2012
  6. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    "Faithful to Kuat Drive Yards' design philosophy of 'terror styling', the [Executor bridge] tower is deliberately positioned in full view of any ship that might dare risk an attack" - CL
  7. King of Alsakan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2007
    star 4

    I think that's about as reasonable as explanation as you could get for the reactor bulge, especially factoring in that they could just compensate with stronger shields.

    I cant wait to see the Giel Star Frigate? and the Eidolon models your working on
  8. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 28, 2003
    star 6
    Does anyone here have the Dark Empire handbook from Dark Horse? I have never seen it but I am curious if it has any little cool Fleet Junkie tidbits in it.

    I also demand a retcon that makes all of those random Corellian looking designs in the New Republic fleet at Da Soocha into units from the Corellian government-in-exiles private navy that were sent to the world to help bolster the struggling New Republic. I always liked that line from by Han Solo that Corellians always stepped up to help out during a crisis in LOTF.

    --Adm. Nick
  9. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    I don't think there's much there. Been a while since I read it. The DESB was better in that regards.

    In other news, I finally took some time out to find various variations of the Imperial-class and Victory-class. Just smaller things and spec changes, not big things like the superlaser on the Conqueror. That kinda turns the design into a whole other design. Same with the Tector-class and Interdictor-class.

    Imperial variants
    Victory variants
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Sep 29, 2012
  10. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    The E-wing was said to have already proved itself in "a dozen sorties" prior to the Battle of Calamari. The NR fleet was said to have been "worn down" by Thrawn, and had "more pilots than it had fighters". The NR fleet sent to Mon Calamari suffered heavy losses during the Battle of Mon Calamari.

    Interesting... the entry on the Rebel Alliance in the handbook states that the NR took back Coruscant during the Imperial Civil War, but decided that they couldn't hold it and abandoned it again.

    The World Devastators are said to be powered by "miniature black holes"...

    It's a shame that we've never had any further looks at those ships, like the Pelagia.
  11. King of Alsakan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2007
    star 4
    Pretty cool, I think we should get a few more official Imperial ISD variants out of that. I can't believe for all I have played Battlefront that I never thought about the side hanger variant.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    I've seen a reference to at least one modified Victory-class (no side fins) at Endor.
  13. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 28, 2003
    star 6
    Hmm, I guess that some initial E-wing squadrons probably saw action during the fall of Coruscant and the subsequent skirmishes that followed the New Republic's retreat from the Core Worlds.

    As for NR fleet losses at the Battle of Calamari, that doesn't surprise me. The Emancipator and Mon Remonda were lost, plus at least a few frigates. And heavy starfighter losses. I actually wonder how large the fleet Lando and Wedge commanded was I total. We know, at minimum, the fleet contained one ISD, one MC90, one MC80B, at least four frigates, and a corvette. However, I have always suspected that the fleet was larger than appeared in any one comic panel. The New Republic knew the extent of the Imperial assault fleet at Dac, plus knew that multiple World Devastators were on the planets surface. Give the importance of Dac, I assume that the fleet contained several more cruisers, escorts, and other vessels.

    --Adm. Nick
  14. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    They where apparently already around in the Thrawn Crisis per the EGVV so properly saw action before that, especially the Rim campaigns that Ackbar moved the Fleet to after Thrawn was beaten would make a good candidate for these sorties.
  15. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    We also know there were "dozens" of WD fleets surrounding Republic worlds in the audio drama.
  16. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    That would be the Dominator who is referred to as lacking fins only because the CCG card art simply used the image of an ISD from behind (which they did for the generic victory-class SD card, so we can chalk it to artistic license)
  17. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    How about referring to the escort carrier as the Super Transport VIII escort carrier, and having there be a container ship variant, the Super Transport VIII bulk cruiser, and referring to the container ship variants of the Super Transport line as the Super Transport # bulk cruiser in keeping with similar ships like the Quasar Fire-class bulk cruiser?
    Last edited by Zeta1127, Sep 29, 2012
  18. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Well, the Quasar fire seems like it was a bulk cruiser design from the start, but refitted into a cruiser-carrier rather than just a cruiser. See the Battle-Horn class for a similar outcome.
    The Escort Carrier is more like the WWII CVEs. Take a freighter hull design, modify it the minimum amount to carry fighters, and call it good. It looks like it started as a Kuat freighter design, then some were repurposed to carry fighters.
    Bulk cruisers are purpose built warships, of a sort. Mainly for things like commerce protection, they tend to be slow and underpowered for a warship, but superior to most potential threats. They are meant to be escort vessels, and only backwaters and the desperate use them as main line warships as built.

    All that said, the Super Transport hulled Imperial escort carriers do lack an proper name/designation, as do the Storm Commando escort carriers from Rogue Leader.
  19. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 28, 2003
    star 6
    FYI, for those of you who didn't see the season premire of TCW, we learn that Hondo has a fleet of sorts. Three Corona-class frigates and at least three of those smaller attack ships too. Not to shabby for a pirate from Florrum. For some reason, the retro look of those frigates is cool to me. And I don't normally like sci-fi that has flying saucers, but those things work for some reason.

    --Adm. Nick
    Last edited by AdmiralNick22, Sep 30, 2012
  20. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    I like how it stops rotating to extend its docking tube. Also, it appears only a portion is spinning, while there's a section with the crew that stays normal. Plus, we get to see the Corona's bridge for the first time. Very Star Trek-esque.

    Hondo also says three of his lieutenants turned on him, implying he has even more and therefore more ships in his forces.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Sep 30, 2012
  21. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    He also said his 'empire' got devastated by Grevious suggesting his pirate forces are reasonably large.

    And strangely, I agree in that the saucer ships somehow work.
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    Possibly. Still- we also see finless Victory-class ships in the Dark Empire comics.
  23. Skywalker_T-65 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2009
    star 6
    Yeah, finless VSD's are rather common in DE. One wonders if they are the same class or not (I don't think we ever saw one next to an ISD to compare the sizes...my memory may be faulty though).

    And any questions about VSD's I can most likely answer. Just look at my sig after all.;)
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    This set of Victory pics

    includes the finless Victory from Dark Empire, shown below and slightly in front of a larger ship which looks like an ISD.
  25. Skywalker_T-65 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2009
    star 6
    Hmm....certainly has the right bridge. And that is some sort of SD above it...but is it an ISD...its hard to tell. That is most likely a true finless VSD though, since I can't see anything that leads me to believe it ISN'T a VSD (other than the obvious lack of fins).