Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.
Maybe if you packed it really close together
Remember how serious people take Han's quote "The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've...” to quantify the entire Imperial Navy? Guess we now have an out since the explosions only took out one cruiser and one light cruiser. People in SW do use hyperbole.
I was thinking about Nebulon-B frigates the other day and I was trying to figure out if there was a way to account for their high numbers in the Rebel Navy outside of the normal "defection" reason we see. Given how common escort frigates are in the Rebellion and the later New Republic, I wonder if Neb-B's were popular with the Empire's PSF's? We know that alot of the PSF's donated ships to the NRDF after Endor (per the EGTW), so this could be one possible source.
Personally, I would love a retcon that the Rebels were building Nebbies at Dac. We know that the shipyards were used to modify Assault Frigates, so why couldn't part of the yards be retooled to build non-native designs?
Hmm.. it's a frelling huge galaxy. So besides lots and lots of ships, there are also many very talented con artists and thieves. I wonder how many capital ships are stolen on an average day?
I can totally see Han posing as valet and driving off with a new frigate.
Given the role of the Escort frigate, I would say they were broken into roughly two big groups under the Empire- Naval assigned ones, that worked as pickets, scouts, and communications relays for the fleet, and then those assigned to the Merchant Marine for commerce protection duties. Many of the latter are probably crewed not by naval personnel but local sailors, perhaps with an Imperial officer or two as an "advisor." I could see most defections coming from this latter group, while outright captures are made from the Naval stock.
WEG Pirates and Privateers source book was nice enough to explain that pretty much right after introduction enough of them defected or got stolen that both the Rebels and other interest groups were able to study the design and build their own knock offs, often heavily modified. The Hutts apparently even sold them on the Black Market. Whilst the Empire also allowed local patrols to use them. So pretty much everyone and their mother had access to them.
Don’t really see a need for even retconing that, as the Rebel Alliance sourcebook already points at them building all kinds of things at Dac.
Good point. Commerce raiding probably accounted for the vast majority of Rebel attacks during the GCW. Heck, half the missions in the old XW or XW vs TF games were about capturing ships. It would make sense that the Rebels would also focus on capturing the convoy's escorts as well. A frigate crewed by locals from the sector PSF are far likely to fight to the death against a Rebel boarding party, plus is some sectors the PSF's had Rebel sympathies.
Thanks for the source. It makes sense that the Rebels were building Neb-B's. They were so common in the Rebel Navy and with Rebel sector forces that their nickname in the galaxy was "Rebel cruiser", so there would have to be a large percentage of them in Rebel hands.
Yeah, I have always taken the quote from the RASB to refer to Neb-B's and Corellian corvettes. The folks over at the Wook seem to think that it refers to native Dac escort designs, but back in the WEG days there was little doubt that those vessels were standard Rebel designs.
Dac of course produced smaller escorts like the MC40 light cruiser and MC30c frigate, but it appears that nearly all of their efforts were focused on producing large warships like the MC80 and MC80a series, as those are the types of vessels the Rebels were in most desperate need for. But I still like the idea of a part of the Mon Calamari Shipyards being run by Blissex and focused on producing Assault frigates, knock off Neb-B's, and corvettes.
I don't like that retcon's retcon. We already have homegrown Mon Calamari frigates thanks to EAW and corvette-sized diplomatic ships in the Republic comics.
I assume they refitted ships for other parts of the Alliance, but part of the reason the Imperials had trouble getting their shipyards to work was that it was very incompatible with outsiders' designs.
I'd like to think the majority of Calamari's output in the war years was a combination of home-made escorts, a few cruisers and retrofits to their own designs.
I not saying that this sort of retcon would do away with the idea that the Mon Calamari also produced light cruisers, frigates, and smaller escorts for the Rebel Fleet. I just think it makes sense to incorporate some of the "spirit" of WEG's original implied intent to have the Mon Cal shipyards also building other commonly used Rebel ships. Afterall, Dac is the only Rebel fortress world and the only one with major shipbuilding facilties. Blissex and the other Rebel designers had to set up shop somewhere, and Dac is the most likely place. Thanks to the EFTW, we also know that Dac was building non-native fighters like the X-wing and B-wing, so it further points to the idea of the Mon Cal shipyards having capabilities other than producing native designs.
"The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet" seems like a conservative statement, rather than a hyperbolic one.
There's also the fact that Mon Cal designs have been stated to be somewhat overdesigned - redundant shields, heavy internal bracing, and most importantly the ships aren't mass-produced. No two are identical and most if not all have Mon Cal-specific control interfaces and environmental settings. That makes for some dangerous if esoteric capital ships, but doesn't pay off for escorts - the "foot soldiers" of the fleet. For an escort frigate or corvette you want something that can be rolled off the lines in quantity for relatively cheap. The MC30 and MC40 designs don't seem to fit that bill. Both are more in the medium cruiser class. the former is the GFFA version of a WWII destroyer (skirmish unit for making torpedo attacks on enemy capital ships) and the latter seems to serve as a flagship for small task forces operating independently of Ackbar's battle lines.
That I can actually see and it explains the slow production of each MC80. They're overdesigned and therefore can't roll off of the assembly lines like the ISD can. (Which is itself said to contain many flaws and exploits, a product of cheap and quick manufacturing?)
Ok, Nick, I'm coming around on this. Hey, why not compromise and add the CR90s and EF76s to homemade designs? I wouldn't mind seeing that Quarren diplomatic ship design from Republic turned into military corvettes.
Well, given the rather limited funding that the Rebellion had and the fact that each capital ship was literally worth it's weight in gold, MC80 & MC80a cruisers made sense for the Rebels. They knew that they could only field some many warships in their main battle line, plus their whole military philosophy was to avoid fleet engagements unless they had a distinct advantage. As the Rebellion became the New Republic it needed well designs AND mass produced warships, hence why the subsequent MC80b and MC90 cruisers were fielded in greater numbers.
Yeah, my idea is that the Mon Cal shipyards produced a mix of their native escorts and standardized non-native escorts. Given how we don't see many MC30c or MC40 escorts in the Alliance Navy proper, I am a fan of Dr. Saxton's idea that most of these vessels were assigned to Dac's own defense force and/or the Rebel home fleet assigned to protect Mon Calamari Space.
With the MC80 and MC80a; I think it was more that many of those ships were already in existence as civilian vessels and could be outfitted with military-grade defenses to form capable capital ships. The Mon Cal yards already had the facilities to construct them, so no reason to change the design in the short run - especially when the product was one of the few units in the Alliance fleet capable of holding its ground against an ISD. As far as native escorts like the Quarren diplomatic ship, the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook states that Ackbar's fleet pretty much included anything that could be fitted with a gun and cast into space. It makes sense that smaller Mon Cal designs would be armed and pressed into service, but they would have been outnumbered by the more economical EF76 and CR90 designs and likely kept back at Dac.
As far as the MC30 and MC40 - again, I wouldn't call them "escorts." Both ships were more cruiser-sized, with the MC30 "frigate" according to the Wook being nearly the size of a Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser. In mid-20th century navies their role would have been filled by light cruisers, which often served as flagships for destroyer squadrons operating independently from the main fleet. The MC30 in particular seems to have much in common with the two Kuma-class light cruisers the Imperial Japanese Navy modified as "torpedo cruisers" with a total of ten quadruple launchers for the Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedo - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Kitakami
I agree, Nick - the ships would probably be distributed by need. The Alliance fleet could scrounge up frigates and even light cruisers - it was main cruisers like the MC80s that they needed, freeing up the MonCal-specific smaller capital ships to stay with the MonCal.
The MC80a was retconned in TEGTW as the wingless cruiser in ROTJ and the only one of the three seen in the film that was brand new. This is consistent with some of the previous sources, where the MC80a was the first step towards creating a more combat-oriented warship instead of just refitting civilian ships.
The other two, the MC80 Liberty and Home One types were refits. Although the Liberty type was retconned in TEGTW to be a military design from the get-go. Just hidden within the Imperial civilian transportation program by the Mon Cals.
Interestingly, the Home One type is hinted at being thousands of years old. I forget which source it was that first said those ships were used as colony vessels since early in Mon Cal's space exploration. That's back in the 4000 BBYs.
The vast majority of work being done at the Mon Cal shipyards during the GCW was refitting vessels into MC80 cruisers. Per the EGTW, only eight MC80a wingless cruisers were built by Endor. It was until after Endor that the yards really shifted into a full production mode, cranking out additional MC80a cruisers and MC80b cruisers, while starting design work on the eventual MC90 battle cruiser.
Great analogy for the MC30c frigate. I like the idea of small squadrons of them being used by the Rebels in the same manner that destroyers were used in WWII, launching fast attack torpedo salvos at larger ships and thenusing their superior speed to escape. Though the size surprises me. I thought it was confirmed to be 300m? If it is 600m, then it is much larger than the MC40 light cruiser.
That's what the Wook says, and last I checked the MC40a isn't a small ship either at around 500 meters. Both are edging into what WEG would classify as heavy cruiser territory. Given that we often see the MC40a leading raiding-type forces or in the hands of Rebel-allied groups such as the Dimoks and Rneekii pirates, it seems they were mostly dispatched as a less-valuable stand-in for a capital ship.
What I never understood, and maybe one of you Fleet Junkies can explain it to me, is why the Empire just did not put together a good-size fleet to take out Dac's shipbuilding facilities. Were they unaware of the amount of ships that were being built/refit for the Rebels there? Did Palps just let it go in order to keep the war going and thus gain even more (if that's possible) power?
A number of sources, starting with WEG's old Rebel Alliance SB, had the Alliance and the Mon Calamari assume that the shipyards were running on borrowed time and that an Imperial attack could happen without warning. However, even the Imperials admitted that it would have to be a significant fleet engagement to take Mon Calamari. (Empire At War has an Imperial fleet sent to attack Mon Calamari shortly before the Battle of Yavin, but Alliance forces intercepted it before it reached the system).
Probably it was exactly for the reason you stated, and the hubris of the Emperor - most likely Mon Calamari was at the top of the list for the DSII's planet-destroying, and was waiting until after the Battle of Endor to do so.
The usual explanation is that it is pretty hard to get too and the Rebels had mined and fortified surrounding systems and of course Mon Cal, so the potential losses would have been rather unpleasant. Plus the planet had declared itself neutral in the war so attacking it could have caused more unrest in the Empire than the Emperor would want to risk without having a Death Star around, though per the Warfare guide he had already collected a task force to crush Mon Cal once the Rebel fleet was destroyed at Endor.
It's never explained in a satisfactorily way. The closest they got is that the Rebels built up the entire sector to be a Rebel fortress. The Empire was also spread throughout the galaxy retaliating against easier targets and awaiting the DSII for tougher systems like Dac.
I would just think it would be a top priority for the Empire. Palps wants to eliminate the Rebels, and the Rebel fleet is the main fighting force. You would not have to worry about putting together a plan to ambush the Rebel fleet if you took out the source of most of the Rebel fleet to begin with.
I guess perhaps it was easier to destroy the fleet after the fact than try to attack Dac, based on the military and political damage the Empire would take, as you geniuses pointed out.
You'd think. Personally, I wished that Dac had pretended to be a loyal Imperial world that merely had the misfortune of having many of its exploration vessel and cruiser liners fall victim to piracy, but things are what they are.
The best explanation is that Palpatine was content to wait for Death Star II to be completed so that he could inflict the maximum level of pain and retribution on the Mon Cal's and the Rebellion. Palpatine was all for grand statements, and what better way to show the galaxy that the Rebel cause was premanently extinguished after a victory at Endor than to follow it up with the complete destruction of their only fortress world?