Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    It properly really is effective targeted range, as bombardment distances from orbit alone require them to shoot further (as others have mentioned), though it has been hinted at several times that capital ship bombardment literally can’t accurately hit the broad side of a mountain without having spotters.
  2. TheRedBlade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2007
    star 3
    This is why I think an effective maximum limit of a 1 lightsecond radius (~300,000km) from the "center" of combat makes the most sense for heavy-duty combat. Targets would not need to be lead an absurd distance, and would not have minutes to manuever around sub-light turbolaser blasts and missile strikes. Comms and sensors would also work in real-time, and avoid potentially fatal delays.

    Mind you, this does not preclude weapons and sensors working beyond that range; it would merely be impractical to EDIT: Engage in fleet-on-fleet actions beyond that distance.
    Last edited by TheRedBlade, Feb 8, 2013
  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's not like there isn't precedent- Daala's Knight Hammer never manages to hit the Yavin IV Great Temple, from orbit.

    During the later chase after the Malevolence, we see Venators missing despite being within a few km.
  4. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    Most likely explanation is that electronic countermeasures are far more advanced than targeting systems, reducing everything to visual ranges.

    Like in Gundam.
    TheRedBlade and darthscott3457 like this.
  5. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2007
    star 3
    I wouldn't think accuracy would matter too much if the goal is to wipe out a planets populace at least :)

    I can't really think of a good example of a precision space to ground turbolaser strike. Though I can't remember how precise the Anakin Solo was with bombarding Kashyyyk, I am guessing it was rather random. There is the Death Mark from the SWTOR, but that's no where as powerful as a turbolaser main battery. I still would think turbolaser targeting would definitely be better than a few 100 km, by "since the Death Star exists" argument as well :)
  6. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    The DS1 was certainly within about 1 light-second of Alderaan when it destroyed the planet, but palnets are big, circular, targets with known and predictable motion.

    The Mon Cal Cruisers at Endor (on Perimeter Duty, where they would probably not be expected to use their guns) were clearly visible through the Thrown Room viewports, foreshortened certainly, (but with detail visible) in RotJ; and the persuing SD in the opening scene of ANH was very close to Tantive IV.

    Bearing in mind that almost all the ships are thinner in one dimension than in others, "Effective Range" is possibly defined as when aiming errors for the thinnest dimension have been reduced to practically zero -- and that comes down to how fine the gearing is on the gun mounts! OOU artillery uses things like 'mils' (spelling?) as its finest setting, so what difference would a one-mil error have at the various distances-off?
  7. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Properly not, but it certainly presents a problem when you want to try strategic bombardment.
    Pretty much.

    The Bounty Hunter skill?

    Edit: Never mind ^^ the Laser Killer Satellite, though from what I recall didn’t its targets need to be tagged by a Spotter?
  8. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Just looked 'mil' up....

    It subtends a distance of approx 1 metre at a range of 1000 metres; so unless the SW Universe can achieve greater precision than 1/6400 of a circle....
  9. DarthCane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    Not necessarily state of the art; the XJ seems to be a boutique fighter for the Jedi Order at the start of the YV invasion. Even Rogue Squadron is still flying the unspecified older "A3" model (EA3, FA3 ... IA3, take your best guess). Later it gets revved up to more general usage. For all we know, the bulk of the NR fighter force in that time period is E-wings.

    As far as the FreiTek and Incom rivalry, this is what really bugs me.

    Ahem.

    THEY'RE THE SAME **** THING.

    Or at least they should be. FreiTek is stated to be founded by the Incom design team that created the X-wing and then defected to the Rebellion. Incom was then nationalized by the Empire and as late as 10-11 ABY was producing fighters for Imperial service. In short, at least until well after the E-wing entered service, FreiTek was technically the manufacturer of the X-wing (just as the F/A-18 Hornet and F-15 Eagle were McDonnell Douglas designs, but now all contractor support and further production are through Boeing since MacAir doesn't exist anymore). There's no reason that Incom, after having its best engineers break away and form FreiTek, after becoming a fully-owned Imperial corporation, would suddenly assume control of the product line it hasn't had control of for well over a decade and muscle out the guys who've actually been building the fighters. Simply put, every time "Incom" gets mentioned in the NR era I mentally substitute "FreiTek," because by all rights they have control of the X-wing design. Write it off as another example of author laziness.
  10. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    This reminds me: in the Heroes on Both Sides comic, one of the clones asked why they were attacking the station with cruisers instead of bombers, Obi-Wan replied that it was because there were civilians on board and they were going for accuracy over raw power.

    Which struck me as the exact opposite of how things usually are portrayed. Very odd.

    Granted, it turned out the bombers were equipped with seismic charges, which tore apart the mostly asteroid station very quickly, but that doesn't really explain everything.
  11. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Especially since Y-Wings at least have ion weapons unlike the Jedi Cruiser.
  12. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
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    The early Rebellion X-Wings that Incom brings are IIRC the T-65B, so there is an -A design floating around that could have been sold openly for a while, before the -B was taken with Incom to the Rebellion.

    We have seen that even great pilots like Tycho have to adjust from the fast manueverable TIEs and A-Wings to slower craft like X-Wings and in Tycho's case, the Blade 32.
    Last edited by AdmiralWesJanson, Feb 9, 2013
  13. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Essential Guide to Warfare states that (p155):

    "The X-wing was still a top secret project within the Incom skunkworks when Incom's scientists received word that the Empire planned to nationalize the company. Key members of the design team defected, escaping with the plans and prototypes and wiping Incom's computer networks clean before they made their getaway. While the Empire struggled to reconstruct Incom's corporate records, Rebel raids emptied its facilities of virtually its entire stock of T65s."
  14. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    And just after that it mentions how the Rebels pretty much gave the design plans away like party hats. ;)
  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not according to Wookieepedia- it states that FreiTek was founded some time later, by a different Incom group from the original defectors, and cites sources.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Torranix_Inertial_Compensator_Corporation
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/FreiTek_Incorporated
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Feb 9, 2013
  16. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Some choice quotes on the Munificent-class from ROTS:ICS:
    "Frigate monitors a fleet's perimeters using high-performance sensors with a range of several light-days."
    "Powerful antennae channel hyperwave supralight transceivers, while jamming devices hinder enemy sensors and targeting systems."


    Now that in itself doesn't prove real-time monitoring, but, it's been established since the early movies that ships can be detected while in hyperspace by outside sensors. We often hear "A ship is coming out of hyperspace!" before the ship actually enters the field of view. Since hyperspace travel takes place in a "faster-than-light" environment, they have to have ftl sensors that can detect in real-time, at least for nearby objects.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Feb 9, 2013
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Ranges of "several light-days" tend to contradict the notion in the Thrawn books of a fleet lurking "three thousandths of a light year" outside a system, preparing to launch an attack- specifically, at the start of The Last Command (Ukio) and twice in Heir to the Empire (Bpfassh, Sluis Van)
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Feb 9, 2013
  18. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Why, it's in the same order, but lower. Not every warship could have the same quality sensors as a dedicated c&c vessel.
  19. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    They also have that special type of radiation (made much of in BFC, IIRC) caused by a ship exiting hyperspace. Like the Ship-generated jump points in Babylon 5, the radiation might put in an appearance before the ship itself does!

    I'm now pretty happy with the short ship-to-ship combat ranges being a forced artifact of mechanical elevation/traverse systems on the gun mountings. Traverse errors don't matter so much (bearing in mind the length of the hulls but elevation errors (1 metre at 1 kilometre for a 1 milliradian error) would. They probably do have more accurate levels of elevation/traverse available (for Planetary Bombardment from Geostationary orbit) but they would take too much time to incorporate into the gunlaying in a ship-to-ship fight -- ships can dodge; a fixed point on a planetary surface (with the firing ship locked into a fixed point in space relative to it) can't!
  20. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    However, we know they have to have some form of real-time sensors for hyperspace based on the communications while a ship is in transit! Even between ships on different routs in hyperspace or with one in normal space and one in transit.

    Not to mention the fact we had CW episodes where ships in hyperspace locate obstacles while in transit (a frigate sensor in season 1 warns of an impending collision with a star (Jedi Crash) and a shuttle sensor in season 5 warns of comet debris (A Beautiful Day in the Void).
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Feb 9, 2013
  21. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    We also know those can’t be all that long range because they have to resort to taking a good guess when trying to follow anything through hyperspace.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Feb 9, 2013
  22. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2007
    star 3
    I would also assume that there is some sort of planet side or orbital equipment that can track things in hyperspace pretty well, in order to prevent against collisions or at least give the planet some time to respond to the potential disaster.
  23. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    EGTW had FreiTek buy out Incom sometime ABE, and the FreiTek name was kept as the "weapons-and-avionics division" of Incom. I presume that it probably happened around when the NR regained Coruscant. (Also interesting to note that Incom/FreiTek became the official manufacturer of the A-wing once the NR was established).
  24. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 28, 2003
    star 6
    As others have said, here is the exact quote from the EGTW:

    "The Rebel designers registered a new corporate identity under the name of FreiTek, but resumed control of Incom after Endor, with the FreiTek marque becoming a weapons-and-avionics division."

    It actually makes sense from a certain POV, as the folks that founded FreiTek were once loyal Incom engineers and executives that left due to their disagreement with the Empire's policies. Fresia was probably one of those early Core Worlds taken by the New Republic during it's Coreward drive to Coruscant, so I imagine once the world was captured that FreiTek setup shop there and was absorbed back into Incom. Incom basically then has a monopoly on NRDF space superiority, escort, and interceptors, as it produces the X-wing, E-wing, and A-wing fighter. Slayn & Korpil and the folks at Koensayr gobbled up the fleet's assault fighter and bomber needs, basically creating a "Big Three" of fighter manufactuers in the New Republic.

    Ironically, just at the X-wing design team, it appears that the I-7 Howlrunner team did the same. At least once team from Incom remained loyal to the Empire, producing Howlrunners all the way from the Dark Empire period to the Imperial Remnant.

    --Adm. Nick
  25. DarthCane Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, that's what makes it a little confusing - trying to figure out when Incom got out from under the Empire's thumb and rejoined with FreiTek, especially since IIRC the I-7 comes along not long before the Imperial Mutiny. It's also confusing since in the real world manufacturer names tend to live on in usage - I wouldn't be surprised if the FreiTek/Incom reunification didn't happen until after the E-wing's fielding, and the references to Incom as an X-wing and A-wing manufacturer prior to that were actually to FreiTek.

    Actually, one thought I had regarding why the E-wing might have become a counterpart rather than a successor to the X-wing - what if the X-wing had a range/endurance advantage over the E-wing? That might prompt certain units - particularly the Jedi and Rogue Squadron - to retain use of X-wings for greater independence from bases and carriers. That came to mind when I was considering another WWII aircraft comparison - the P-47 Thunderbolt and P-51 Mustang. The Thunderbolt was tougher, better-armed, and easier to maintain but had shorter range than the Mustang; the latter aircraft ended up becoming an icon despite the fact that the "T-bolt" was really the aircraft that broke the Luftwaffe's back in early 1944. Once the P-51 replaced the P-47 in the long-range escort role, the Thunderbolts were typically tasked as fighter-bombers and were downright lethal in that role.

    In fact, if anything it seems like the E-wing ended up being more of a replacement for the Y-wing and B-wing, while the K-wing ended up as a delivery platform for niche-mission weapons like plasma torpedoes, mines, unpowered bombs, and flechette missiles. That would allow fighter group commanders to replace their B-wings and Y-wings with something that could defend itself from TIEs and free up the X-wings and A-wings from escort duty.