Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Not putting all your eggs in the same basket comes to mind. Two battlecruisers and a dreadnought sounds impressive enough for one fight.

    Wonder if we'll ever shed the light on Zsinj getting the Sovereign at some point. With image.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Jul 8, 2013
  2. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 28, 2003
    star 6
    RE: Bounty, there is nothing that states she didn't play a key role at the Battle of Mon Calamari. Sure, she might not of been deployed with the Viscount, Guardian, and Harbringer, but that could simply be due to the fact she was deployed elsewhere in the system. Per TUF, each planet in the Dac system was "encircled" by GADF warships, so it is possible that the Bounty was holding the line at Mon Eron or near the Icebergs.

    As for the Harbringer, there is NOTHING that states she can't be a Star Defender. The EGTW doesn't state that only two 17km warships were built. It just mentions two specifically. I have always been a fan of the Harbringer being a third 17km Star Defender.

    In the case of the Mediator-class battle cruiser, I would totally retcon the "Mon Cal heavy cruiser" Vortex Wind into part of this class. Ditto the Yald and the Dauntless, since they are described as important ship. Based on the EGTW idea that the MBC is the sucessor to the MC80 (and presumably the MC90), the class should be a mainstay of the GADF in the Vong-era and the post-NJO era.

    --Adm. Nick
  3. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Except the Bounty was supposedly at Mon Calamari the entire war. It was there being built, and even uncompleted was enough of a deterrant to protect Mon Calamari until the end of the war. No mention of it being moved like the Krakana, which was ambushed en route to Kuat (thanks Viqi Sleesh!).

    Actually, tracking the NR's dreadnoughts during the war is a pain. Viscount was at Coruscant at the start, and Mon Calamari at the end. Bounty was at Mon Calamari the entire time being completed. Lusankya was somewhere, possibly at the Battle of Coruscant, before being attached to Wedge at Borleias and used to attrit down a Vong fleet and then ram a worldship. Guardian wasn't mentioned until after Coruscant fell, then it ferried around the NR/GFFA leadership until it was part of the big trio at Mon Calamari. Harbinger was a mon can ship under Bel Iblis post Fall of Coruscant and was part of the big trio at Mon Calamari. Given that Harbinger only appeared late in the war, and Bounty is mentioned as being under construction at Mon Cal but didn't appear to be part of the battle, it's possible that Bounty was completed and made Bel Iblis's flagship, where he renamed it Harbinger.

    Then there is the problem of the Strident class Star Defender. Multiples were built and delivered, but beyond three being deployed to defend Corellia during the Fondor campaign, we hear nothing about them. Given that they are called Star Defenders, and three was deemed enough to appear a solid defense of Corellia, but weak enough to draw the main Vong strike fleet into a trap, I'd put them at the smaller end of the size scale. Maybe the Strident is 3 Km and Jaina mixed up the two ships? And LotF makes it messier by stating that Stridents are not in the same size class as the Galactic class Star Destroyer, implying smaller though NJO intent seems to be larger. At the same time, however, there are several egg shaped Corellian dreadnoughts of unnamed design.
    Viscount is a messy attempt at a compromise, but at least we know something about the ship and the class. We know nothing about the Strident.
  4. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2007
    star 3

    I would have to go back and look, I thought it was 7 Mandator-I's, from memory wasn't it like 3 to Kuat, 2 to Anaxes, 1 to Humbarine, and maybe 1 to Ixtlar? Always make me think of Ix from Dune.

    EDIT: I see what you mean, I thought it also said there were 6 Mandator-II's, 3 being updated Mandator's I's

    On the Executor bankrupting the Empire business, I always chuckle at that one. Always torn about whether that or the initial whole 6 million clones thing was a more absurd statement :confused:;)
    Last edited by darthscott3457, Jul 8, 2013
  5. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    It's not six, as the movie makes clear 1.2 million ;) and that Palpatine was running the Empire into the ground financially has been mentioned all over the place, with the whole Executor line just being another straw to break the camel's back

    Not even half as impressive as this

    By stealing the not completed frame?
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Jul 8, 2013
  6. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    3 to Kuat, one each to Alsaka, Azure, Ixtlar and Humbarine Sectors.

    That's exactly what it says.

    Take a look at recent quotes from the EGTW - it addresses the whole bit quite well.

    Considering that the entire reference was a mistake, I seriously doubt it. The original source makes it clear it's just the Iron Fist, anyways.
    Last edited by blackmyron, Jul 8, 2013
    darthscott3457 likes this.
  7. FTeik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2000
    star 4
    As interesting as the Dreadnought-debate is, here is another topic for discussion: It concerns the re-building/rearmament efforts of the Imperial Remnant after the Bastion Accords. The scenario is as follows:

    The empire has shrunk to a thousand systems, so the resource-/recruitment-/cash-base is rather small. It is therefor decided to supplemant the star destroyer's fighter-wings with droid-fighters. You are in charge of procurement and have to choose between the following two models:

    1) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_automated_starfighter
    TIE/D Automated Starfighter, a 6.3 meter long starfighter, controlled by a droid-brain. Contrary to regular TIE/ln it is equipted with shields and heavier armour. It should have at least the acceleration of other TIEs at around 4,200 Gs or more. Its two laser-cannons gave swarms of this fighter-model enough of a punch to destroy the Mandator-III-class dreadnought Aculeus.

    Cost: 170,000 credits, another drawback is, that the droid-brain is easily outwitted by living pilots.

    2) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droid_tri-fighter
    Colla Designs Droid-Tri-Fighter, the bane of the GalacticRepublic's fighter-pilots during the later stages of the clone-wars. A 5.4 meter long craft, armed with one medium laser-cannon, three light laser-cannons and hardpoints for two to six missiles, this fighter compensates for its lack of shields with heavy armour. It has a maximum acceleration of 3,600 Gs.

    Cost: 20,000 credits, the highly advanced droid-brain makes this fighter a challenge for the best living pilots.
    Last edited by FTeik, Jul 9, 2013
  8. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    No contest, as far as I can see, the armament mix and the cost give the Droid_tri-fighter one heck of an advantage - the cost factor should also permit R&D to uprate the engines and still remain cost-effective.
  9. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    They don't have shields, also it's extra armour seemed to help little in making them more durable.


    They failed just a little less hard then Vulture droids against real pilots, so not really, also the ACE-6 the TIE Droids get fitted with are said to be better than anything previous in that direction so, yeah the TRI fighter Droids claim of supposedly being smarter seems to just not be all that true. Besides Colla happens to be in New Republic space at that time so good luck getting stuff from there.

    The post Bastion Accord Empire btw. went for TIE Defenders, though the EGW hints that the Remnant in general had stockpiled tons of TIE Droid fighters anyway.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Jul 9, 2013
  10. FTeik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2000
    star 4
    They don't have according to the DESB, but according to the wookie-article (see link) the bit about the shields comes from the EGVV. Of course, if the Wook is bogus on the shields, that is a point even less for the TIE/D.

    Your source for this? Mine is the ROTS:ICS and the ROTS:VD, but of course some sources might be more equal than others ... .

    I'm not asking for the craft for living pilots, I'm asking for a droid-fighter. And at the time of HoT the stockpiled TIE/Ds seems to have been used up since their main production-base seems to have been the WorldDevastators.

    As for the TIE-Defenders, I would have gone for the TIE/Advanced (Avenger)-variant, for the simple fact, that it fits into the existing TIE-racks, while the Defender does not.
    Last edited by FTeik, Jul 9, 2013
  11. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    The EGVV doesn't mention shields on them, so seems bogus. Though it does point out that if the Empire got production lines running the price would drop drastically, so they might actually be a lot cheaper then the 170000 models if you can get a new factory set up to churn them out.

    The ICS is written in a pretty ham fisted style so it is hard to tell what is really true about it or just in world propaganda. Though „pose a challenge to even the best living pilots” is about as vague as it gets anyway, as even Uglies can pose a challenge. TIE/Droids are also said to be very dangerous and skilled, but like the upgraded Vulture droid brain on the Tri-Fighter they still can’t “think”.

    As on places we see them fail - their is the Clone Wars cartoon were they can't shoot straight or even try to break formation to not be destroyed all at once - also one of the novels mentioned that they had the same short comings as the Vulture (will check and get back on it), the WOTC guides also hint at that is little more than a Vulture droid brain that sucks less, as well of course that the ACE-6 is said to be better then anything that came before.

    The Core World Warlords had stockpiles of them which Pellaeon got to collect after the whole Daala mess, though the Empire might just have gone through them by the time of Hand of Thrawn.


    They would already have had to refit many ships to use the Preybird, I-7es, A-9es etc. anyway.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Jul 9, 2013
  12. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The article:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/D_automated_starfighter

    actually credits Star Wars: Rogue Squadron, as the source for them having shielding:

    Though the "technical specifications" part of the article does say "Shielding: None".
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jul 9, 2013
  13. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Yeah they don't have shields in that game either, you hit them twice and they go down just like TIE Interceptors. ;)
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    While roleplaying game stats can be somewhat suspect- were they ever statted in Star Wars D20, or in Saga Edition, with shields?
  15. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5

    Nep, the Dark Empire Sourcebook did not give them shields and D20 never got stat blocks for them.
  16. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    The old Star Wars Databank indicated that the bulk of the TIE/D manufacturing facilities were within the World Devastators, and not seen much since then.
  17. darthscott3457 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2007
    star 3
    Very true, I have surrenderd to the fact that 2 + 2 = 0.00000000001 in the SW-verse, but I don't have to like it;)
  18. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    How could a 19 km starship design mean bankruptcy for a galactic civilization when Duro built a series of bigger city ships and space stations with no ill effect for galactic economy or even their own? I guess a 40 km station is a sign of OOU authorial bias. :p
    "Hamfisted" to a minimalist who has no concept of internal consistency in fiction. At least the ICS and my points are derived from the movies and their supplementary materials, not rpgs from the late 80s. If you like to believe each ship officer rolls a dice to determine what damage each barrage is going to inflict on an enemy vessel, that's your choice, just don't bring it up in serious discussion. :D
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Jul 9, 2013
    darthscott3457 likes this.
  19. Skywalker_T-65 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2009
    star 6
    Because Dreadnoughts=bad?


    That's one of the things I resigned myself to a while back. Even if it makes little logical sense (IMO).
  20. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Only bad in terms of economy when your military can barely mass-produce frigates and corvettes, i.e. early rebel Mon Calamari. For a galactic-scale economy with logistics established for millions of worlds on a daily basis and with relative stable political conditions, it's somewhat easier to digest. Then again, the only word to the opposite effect comes from a man who liked running about in smaller vessels from the get-go and certainly wouldn't have a personal bias against opulent aspects of the Galactic Empire.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Jul 9, 2013
    darthscott3457 likes this.
  21. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    #1 It is by far not the only expense of the Empire was having at the very same time #2 the thing is not even armed #3 The Duros build their space stations over more then 25000 years and we have seen Duro, "no ill effect" looks different.


    o_O

    Have you even glanced at it? It drops words like savage, desperate, cataclysmic, merciless, cruel, harrowing, bold, aggressive, sinister etc. on just about each page, which is pretty much instant fail if it is meant to be taken serious as an unbiased technical manual.

    Your shifting into trolling again and no as I have already mentioned I do not take RPG mechanics to be how things work, but keep quoting various sources, including the movie visuals, which you tend to counter with [face_talk_hand]



    Who? The Imperial Admirals? Because many did not see a point in them either.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Jul 9, 2013
  22. FTeik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2000
    star 4
    And the RPGs, where the indivduals reporting kowtow in advance for only being able to give incomplete guesswork or outright speculationn are not? Where the IU-authors are RA/NR-historians, archivists and intelligence-officers a source is supposed to be unbiased?

    "There is darkness in the galaxy. There is the galactic empire." That certainly isn't meant to give the idea, that the empire is the source of light in the darkness of space.
  23. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Where's McEwok when you need him? :)
    jSarek likes this.
  24. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    He was too busy writing surprisingly-enjoyable portions of EGTW. I think he's still resting on his laurels. :p

    Yeah, the ICS never had prologue sections where in-universe characters caution their reports are based on limited info or outright speculation based on personal experiences. WEG is filled with that. Ironically, this is done to give players more options if they want to instead of constricting them. Thus expanding the gameplaying universe, at least.

    The DK ICS/ITW books don't have an in-universe character narrator and expand our knowledge about technical and cultural aspects of select vehicles and worlds. :)
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Jul 10, 2013
  25. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Of course they are, but they fully admit to it and don't pretend to be anything else, the ICS is just another of these clearly biased works with the difference we don't even know who had it made and from how a lot of it is worded it seems to have come from the COMPOR outlet down the road or a Kuati marketing department.