Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. FTeik Force Ghost

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    One thing one has to consider is the difference in main focus of the different vessels: The ISD is a jack-of-all-trades, combining the role of carrier, troop-transport and battleship, serving as the backbone of the empire's occupation-forces. As such they are built to last with an emphasis on high, but sustainable performance and endurance for a reasonable price and relatively easy maintainance. RebelAlliance/MonCalamari-ships on the other side are high-performers, built to defeat those larger craft, while being built on a smaller frame. As such the ISD would be a marathon-runner, while the MC90 for example would be a 100metre-sprinter, with higher need of maintainance and higher operational costs in comparison to the ISD (while probably being chaper to purchase).

    The RebelAlliance/early NR also has the problem of having no idea, what kind of fleet it wants or needs as a galactic power. As the RA it had to take, what it could get and as the NR it had to fight not only against imperial splinter-states with different levels of equipment (with Imperials like GA Thrawn having nothing bigger than ISDs available, while the DeepCore-empire had scores of Star Dreadnoughts and battlecruisers to spare) and of course the NR also wanted to be percieved as different from the empire. Hence, why we see so many different ISD-equivalents with limited production-runs, that also quickly vanish from the main lines of the fleet.
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  2. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Anything that precludes us from retconning/assuming that this 1km Kuati cruiser isn't the Republic-class cruiser?

    --Adm. Nick
  3. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Aren't Republic class ships mentioned as "medium sized" in Destiny's Way, always figured they are more Medium/Heavy Cruiser ish? Also the Cruiser in Star by Star is mentioned to have been build by KDY not KSE like the Republic-class.
  4. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    Aren't most capital ships? I mean, every once in a while you will see a dedicated carriers or big gun warships, but those strike me as very much the exception rather than the rule.
  5. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Mon Cal cruisers are multi-role, minus the troop transport part. They are carrier/battleship hybrids, like many of the GFFA's capital ships.

    --Adm. Nick
  6. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

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    It's very rare that we see full on MC80s doing anything but major combatants or task force leaders, while ISDs are used for everything from escorts for larger ships to invasion headquarters to patrol vessels.
  7. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    True, but the NRDF lacked all but a handful of larger vessels, so the "escort" role would be minimal.

    --Adm. Nick
  8. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Not really, it's just been so long with the ISD and MC80, that most people assume all capital ships are like that. Having a token fighter squad like the Hammerhead-class doesn't mean it's automatically jack-of-all-trades. Fighters like that are for reinforcing the ship's offensive/defensive power. having troops onboard doesn't mean it's meant to be a troop carrier, either, if they're for anti-boarding operations.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Aug 24, 2013
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  9. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Jack-of-all-trades as far as offensive forces go, although one could say a lack of focus can be construed as a weakness. However, the Empire didn't seem much interested in the combat-specific Tector variant.
    And it was lacking in one particular area - it couldn't make planetfall.

    ISDs seem to be a product of the Empire, meaning that it relied on effectively unlimited resources to consume for construction and maintenance. Let's not forget the fierce arguments in the Imperial Senate over their funding in the early Empire.
    As far as its performance, Starfall indicated that the ISD was flawed in some critical fashion; and the problems with the ISD-II mentioned in Death Star seems to reflect this.


    I disagree on the higher operation costs for the Alliance - they couldn't field the ships if that were the case. That was certainly true for the NR, though. Thoroughly agree on the higher need of maintenance, although that may have been a factor more of their relative resources - the Empire at its height could afford to wasteful, in Thrawn's time they seem to have been concerned even with the loss of TIE fighters.

    I don't know about that - the Defender program and later, the New Class program showed they had some ideas. I think their main problem was interference from political circles.

    Most of these appear to have been descendants of the VSD design (Republic, Nebula, GFFA VSDs), not the ISD itself.
    Last edited by blackmyron, Aug 24, 2013
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Wookieepedia says that they could at least operate in atmosphere (citing Dark Empire II, Battlefront II, and The Force Unleashed as sources).

    But they may not have had proper landing struts like the Venator-class.

    The Galactic class battle carrier was like a broader ISD- I'm wondering- was it an ISD successor, or the New Republic equivalent of the Secutor class?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 24, 2013
  11. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Right, it was explicitly stated in a number of sources that it couldn't land. It wasn't designed for atmospheric operation, but it apparently could do so in a pinch (although I imagine it was a little chancy).

    The description implies it's a descendant of the ISD. I think the change of the name from "Star Destroyer" to "battle carrier" sounds like KDY trying to win a military contract by changing it to a more 'palatable' name to win over the non-Imperial members of the GFFA. (That the first one is given the name Dodonna seems to support this as well).
    Unfortunately, we still know so little about the ship classes in the NJO and beyond...
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Indeed. I'd like to know if Strident-class Star Defenders are a bit bigger or a bit smaller than Galactics- the implication seemed to be that they were smaller, but the name Star Defender is odd if it's the New Republic equivalent of Star Dreadnought.

    Of course, if it's a more general term, like Star Destroyer in the ESB novel, and a lot of early EU books, maybe it's not a problem.
  13. King of Alsakan Force Ghost

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    I concur, it would sort of be like calling the later Arleigh Burke-class destroyers an aircraft carrier since they carry some helicopters.

    In my mind the ISD is a solid jack of all trades warship, in that it is flexible enough to track down and confront post Clone Wars CIS holdouts and the Rebels in the Outer Rim. It can perform most offensive operations, plus it can most likely take down the majority of any large Rebel warship it might encounter. Meanwhile, I would hope there are scores of other heavier/lighter warships designs out there, that are primarily used for ships to ship combat, planetary defense, bombardment, and other specialized functions.
  14. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    The concept of specialized, single focus roles was a hallmark of the late period GADF, starting in the mid-90's ABY. I have always viewed these vessels as the Second New Class. Given the relative peace, the compromise that allowed member worlds to maintain private navies in return for higher taxes devoted to federal warships, the GADF was probably the larger in terms of hulls than at any other point. The main designs we are aware of:
    • Scythe-class main battle cruiser = primary capital ship, heavy firepower focus, secondary focus as starfighter carrier (3-4 squadrons)
    • Tri-Scythe-class heavy frigate = secondary captial ship, essentially a downscaled Scythe-class presumably with a similar role
    • ShaShore-class friagte = primary escort warship, modular design of front main blade alowed it to perform various seconardy duties like carrier, comm ship, heavy missile platform, etc
    • Sabertooth-class assault craft = primary assault ship for capturing/boarding enemy vessels, secondary role as light escort
    One thing I would love to see are additional of @semicooke other concept designs for GA capital ships & escorts in Legacy. He used to have alot of unused concept art on his main site (I saved copies years ago, but they are no longer online) that showed other awesome potential designs. Nearly every one was in the Mon Calamari design style that the GA used during the period, with a few being very cool. One in particular was a carrier vessel that was wicked. There were some really cool escort concepts too that would make great light cruisers, heavy cruisers, corvettes, and other craft.

    If only the team behind Legacy vol.2 would take note and start using the established designs from this era!

    --Adm. Nick
    Last edited by AdmiralNick22, Aug 24, 2013
  15. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    The SAGA edition of Starships of the Galaxy defined the "Star Defender" as a design concept for capital ships built to defend star systems instead of ravaging them. Presumably, there are a number of ships in the program - I imagine it was a follow-up to the New Class, especially when many political entities were questioning why the NR needed a major offensive capability. Then again, the roll-out may have been interrupting by the Vong invasion and only the Viscounts and Stridents got produced.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Or at least, the Viscount-class was:

    Page 116 Starships of the Galaxy SAGA:
    The Republic had nothing that could go toe-to-toe with a Super Star Destroyer. Though design and construction would take years, the decision was made to commit to a Super Star Destroyer scale of ship. The result is the massive, 17-kilometer long Viscount-class Star Defender.

    For obvious political reasons, no-one in the New Republic was going to allow their most powerful ship to be called a Star Destroyer. To symbolize the change in philosophy, the classification of Star Defender was created. A Viscount-class is equipped with the firepower and support ships to defend an entire star system, without fleet support if necessary.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 24, 2013
  17. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    That's the quote. It makes sense that the NR would want to try to move away from the negative connotations of the term "Star Destroyer" - not that I could see the Mon Cals ever allowing a ship design that they made have that name. They seemed to have pulled away from that, though, considering that the Rejuvenator-class SDs were first launched after the Vong war began.
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    The Essential Guide To Warfare endnotes dropped a hint that the Republic-class Star Destroyer and the MC80B were going to be synonymised, but that this didn't make it into the complete book.

    Maybe Blissex & the Mon Cals made the design, handed it over to Kuat shortly after it was retaken by the Republic, and ones produced at Kuat were called Republic-class SDs, but ones produced at Dac were called MC80B and looked a bit different?

    Something like that might also explain the difference between the Defender-class Star Destroyer and the Nebula-class Star Destroyer- same design looking different due to different shipyards putting their own spin on it.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 24, 2013
  19. Kal Shadaar Jedi Knight

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    Oct 24, 2012

    Sometimes ship (or aircraft) designation is not realistic : Japanese Izumo-class are Helicopter Carriers but are called destroyers for some reason, Soviet aircraft carriers were cruiser to be able to go through the Bosphorus due to some old treaty, the so-called cruiser gap during the cold war was because the Soviet called their surface combatant cruisers and the Americans called their's frigates, the F-111 is designated as a fighter but is a bomber. A ship class could be entirely different from it's role or size (and that is why the Anaxes War college System is stupid [even if it is an in-universe stupidity] as it don't take role into account)
  20. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    IIRC, the most recent word on the Defender/Nebula was that the design was originally part of the "Defender program" in the early NR that got derailed by Thrawn and the Dark Empire, then reworked into the New Class program.

    Good point about the different shipyards. The make-up of the consortium of shipbuilders that made up the REC has always been something I wish had been expanded upon.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    It does to a degree- the Secutor, despite being a battlecruiser-sized ship, has only star destroyer grade weaponry - so it gets classed as one.

    Conversely, the Malevolence, despite being in the battlecruiser size class, has weaponry (pulse ion cannons) strong enough to push it into the dreadnought class.

    The Victory-class is also at the high end of heavy cruiser size- yet has heavier weaponry than typical- thus it's the Victory-class Star Destroyer.
  22. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    I'd say the Anaxes definitions for the "battlecruiser" and "dreadnought" classes make sense enough.

    A battlecruiser is the second heaviest combatant and built upon the cruiser class, a long-range fighting ship that has to maintain independent operation for prolonged periods of time.
    A dreadnought is the heaviest combatant in terms of size, in order to maintain the heaviest amount of weapons-systems.

    Both have a basis in their real life counterparts.

    The Star Destroyer class is interesting, since it started as a designation from one company/government and became a PR term that wedged its way into the Anaxes system (no pun intended). Previous generations of heavy cruisers simply became subordinate in importance to these new Star Destroyers and operated as either their escort/support vessels or glorified systems patrol ships.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Aug 24, 2013
  23. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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  24. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

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    I don't think the MC80B and Republic SD are the same thing at all. Republic SD was Blissex refining the design of the Victory class into a design that was produced by the Mon Calamari. The MC80B was a design of Mon Cal cruiser built as a stopgap warship, with the need to play at being a luxury liner stripped away, before the newer and more powerful MC90s came into production.

    Defender and Nebula Class star Destroyer I still maintain that they were competing designs for the same contract, which the Nebula won (and was temporarily renamed) while the Defender was sold in small numbers to various system navies.
  25. King of Alsakan Force Ghost

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    I was thinking of that as I was writing my post as well, I think they did that to avoid problems with violating their constitution by having a carrier. Not 100% on that.

    I think I ran into a mention of it when I was playing as an Imperial Agent. There really wasn't much on it other than what was on the wiki, pretty much it was built to be an anti-starfighter warship. Maybe another character class had more info on it.