Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

So what? It's removed from the production of the films. The films are the highest canon in the franchise. Why should I care about secondary sources any more than SW rpg stats?

 

Because the movies have to work with optical illusions and film making tricks that clearly have problems? Which such "secondary" sources are there to explain and expand on what we see on screen.

 

Or correct Home Ones...

 

Considering that the actual model was 120 cm in diameter, this would make it 216 km or 135 miles. Yet that figure has never been used. Not even in the ICS.

 

With the smaller Death Star, no apparent mention of the larger torpedo spheres in the preview, and this new Executor business, I think by this time next week Imperator will be under 1 mile and there will be only 250 of them

Please JJ Abrams do what you did for Star Trek and get in there and start doubling the size of some ships.

 

Succinct explanation about the Tarkin, first illustration of the Eye of Palpatine, and the good old torpedo spheres. Can't wait for the Executor guide.

"Larger torpedo spheres" were always a fan invention. And relax, there's no sign that the Executor's length is changing again.

Why should I care about a fan theory when LFL decides canon?

 

Industrial Light & Magic are certainly fans of their own work, I agree. Or maybe From SW to Indiana is an unofficial fan work? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here?

Because the size of the physical models don't add up to the sizes in the actual movies as outlined by the FX artists. 160 km isn't correct, but it's certainly closer to 163,2 km.

And how would they begin explaining something when they used none of the information from the people actually working on the films? What problems other than getting physical models that can't be physically seen interacting together, were there? If they had a stated goal and 9 times out of 10 reached it, this is far from "clearly having problems".

 

Since the 1 mile figure pretty much requires that the Falcon, in the scene where it's on the tower in ESB, be approximately 53m long - and given that the Millennium Falcon Owner's Workshop Manual has it as only 35m long- why shouldn't the ISD be resized?

 

My God, if we lose the one mile ISD scale, the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket.

That is why I am all for LFL coming out and issuing a DEFINITIVE statement on lengths. Odds are each side of the argument will not be 100% happy, but by God I am tired of all the confusion. Just make a set scale, say that anything that doesn't appear to look that size is an error. I swear, I could honestly care less at the end of the day how long an SSD or Home One is, so long as they say "This is it guys, deal with it" so that we can all move on and wait for the Sequel Trilogy to give us new ships to argue about.

--Adm. Nick

 

This was the source that said why the Falcon "should" be 53m long:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html

Would be nice to have some definitive "no more size retcons ever" figures.

 

I know, just could use a win. I don't really know anything regarding the background of the larger torpedo spheres, other than the pic on wookiepedia of that replenishment ship crashing into one.

I don't really have a big problem with resizing things, as long as its correct. I see both sides of the issue, but I usually prefer larger, more powerful, and more plentiful when it comes to SW.

 

Exactly. At one point, these old arguments lose their luster. If I am told suddenly that LFL says Home One is 3.2km, the Executor 13km, and the Falcon is 52 meters, so bit. Ditto is they say Home One is 1.3km, the Executor is 19km, etc. In all honestly, this old Fleet Junkie is just plain tired of constant changes, retcons, etc.

Please LFL, for the love of God, issue one final definitive statement saying "This is it folks, deal with it!"

Until that day, the battles are sure to continue...

--Adm. Nick

 

Any particular exceptions? The aforementioned Falcon maybe?

 

Nah rebel scum need not apply

 

Laser figures for fighters in Complete Vehicles seem a bit on the high side compared to what we see onscreen.

60 Gigajoules (apparently enough to vaporize a cubic meter of solid iron) was the estimate for the X-wing's four lasers firing together in Turbolaser Commentaries, yet the Geonosian Fighter's laser-cannon is apparently a 10 terajoule weapon in Complete Vehicles, and the Aethersprite's laser was listed as a 1 kiloton weapon (4.184 terajoules) - yet the TIE fighter lasers of Vader's ship don't do much damage to Artoo (possibly a glancing hit) and nor do the Naboo Fighter guns have such dramatic effects when used against the droids.

 

It's from the early WEG adventure Black Ice, and the illustration is demonstrably wrong in at least one other significant point - more importantly, there's nothing in the text to indicate a 'larger torpedo sphere', or any other text regarding the torpedo spheres for that matter (which WEG invented to begin with). There's an indirect indication of smaller siege platforms, certainly.

That you believe that somehow LFL is unaware of these sources or are otherwise wrong because they don't come to the same conclusions that you do?

 

That would be funny just to see the reactions of even non-participants in these debates.

It won't work, Leland talked about all the things that go into the Holocron and we see examples of things like sizes changing anyway. I'm sure most authors just pull out old data they remember without bothering to check everything in the Holocron. The system simply doesn't work as intended.

 

And I'm sure you're wrong on that point, especially with regards to the Workshop Manuals.

 

Because LFL changes its mind on canon more often, than I change my dirty socks?

 

They're derived from various events seen in the films (vaporizing asteroids in ESB, blowing up planets in ANH, cutting off chunks of asteroids in AOTC etc.) and guns are stated in the films and in the ICS books to have scalable yields. I don't see the problem.

The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels is fanfiction, then?
Not gonna contest that:
"At 8,000 meters long, it was the largest traditional starship constructed by the Imperial Navy - only the Death Stars and torpedo spheres were larger." - From the Executor entry.

 

In the ICS books- but where in the films? Closest thing I can think of is the "Target: maximum firepower" line in ESB - which may simply mean holding the triggers down a bit longer.

Why would Vader be scaling down his guns from "fighter-killer" to "minimal damage" when he shoots Luke's fighter, hitting Artoo? Or Red Leader's for that matter when he hits him in the engine?

It's a ratio of nearly 1000-1. Luke's fighter vaporizing Death Star surface - at least 15 gigajoules per shot (4 shots, 60 terajoules). Geonosian fighter - 10 terajoules per shot.

 

Point is, the larger sizes from ICS, Complete Locations and the databank were supposed to be the final statement.

And for a time they were. Now it seems the disciples of a minimalistic approach are crawling out of their holes again and nobody claps them on their fingers.Not necessarily their fault, if they are as much invested in their POV as the maximalists or just couldn't be bothered to do more research (which is most likely the case with the new DeathStar-Guide, most of it will probably be a rehash from WEGs "DeathStarTechnicalCompanion") but once again LFL fails at providing consistency.

Why should I take such people seriously or care anymore?

 

That quote and Piett's quote: "Intensify the forward batteries, I don't want anything to get through." in ROTJ. Then there's the fact they can raise and lower comparable technology like shield strengths.

X-wings have shields, unlike the TIE fighters (which the EU makes sure to point out, even though similar shield incidents happen with the Falcon vs four TIEs in the same film). They were working as intended.

When they inexplicably went with 19 km instead of 17,6 km for the Executor or 900 km instead of 800 km for the Death Star II, we should have had some warning signs they weren't using the easiest, most logical way to reach the figures. Literally ignoring the people who worked on the things you're debating fans over.

 

In that case, it seemed more like Piett was asking them to concentrate all their shots on defending the ship- shooting more shots, rather than shooting more powerful shots.