Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

I wonder if part of the Empire's reasoning in shifting from Venators & Victories to Impstars involves the changing role of the Imperial Navy. Over the years between TCW & ANH, the Imperial Fleet wasn't engaging massive space fleets anymore. Their focus shifted to controlling systems in space and on the ground. They needed ships that could hold territory and suppress uprising....hence the "jack of all trades" Impstar. In fact, the two instances that we see Imperial Navy action in the OT (Hoth & Endor) demonstrate the lackluster performance of the ISD's in fleet engagements. Even the Death Stars showed that focus on occupation & oppression over beating space navies. The Seppie Fleet would make short work of the Imperial Navy....Death Star and all.

 

The Imperial Fleet-

A: Far outnumbers the separatist fleet
B: is relatively well lead, at-least compared to the separatists
C: Muh SSDs
D: Muh Thrawn
E: Imperial ships are far more advanced. Allegiance class which has seen the result of 30 or so years of shield and weapons development will always beat a Providence-class. Its like a T-80 going up against a T-62, no contest
F: TIEs>droid starfighters
G: Muh world devastators
H: Muh tarkin station

 

There was a fleet engagement at the battle of Hoth? What version of TESB did you watch and where can I get a copy of it? Seriously, a Venator or Victory would have been shot down by the ion-cannon just like the ISD. We also know from the novel and radiodrama, that at least seventeen rebel-transports were destroyed and if Vader hadn't focused his forces on the hunt for the MilleniumFalcon, it would have probably been more.

Endor on the other hand was a screw-up, because the officers of the Imperial Navy had their hands tied by Palpatine (for his special demonstration). They couldn't make use of their heavy cannons (which are suited for long-range engagements), because they were ordered to hold back, their TIEs had been wasted without capship-support against the rebels (so rebel-capships and rebel-fighters could gang up on them later) and coordination and morale dropped once the emperor's battlemeditaton ceased. If they hadn't been dependant on that, they might have been victorious, even without the DeathStar and the leadership of the Executor. In fact, Pellaeon comes to that very realisation later on, wants to return, but is prevented by his superiors.

 

Such as?

Define "got his hands on them".

Eleven VSDs lost by Teradoc, while Harrsk lost two ISDs and his flagship Shockwave (probably a ship larger than an ISD). Not a bad exchance for Teradoc.

Rumors and unconfirmed according to Hexaphol. We have to keep in mind, that those rebel-sources continually underestimated imperial numbers (lack of information or for propaganda-purposes). The numbers from the ISB - written at the time of ANH - would be obsolete by the time of ROTJ (where the Imperial Armed Forces are said to have been doubled in size according to RESB). Given imperial manufacturing evidenced by the construction of DSII and the manpower-pool available to them, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

So they either built lots of Victories or lots of Strikes. In any case they built lots of something.

 

Abundance of ships available, easy to refit, still cheaper to keep around then building new ships, enough for the low intensity duty they are employed for etc.

Defection, capture, recommissioning?

Or more, since the novel is not even sure if there are hundreds of them or 70ish

Who?

Which the Duskan League did not have for finishing the Black Fleet project. Also the Empire was really fond of exaggeration, so leeway either way, plus super projects precisely like the Death Stars will still be a real drain on said resources and leave them unable to complete other projects.

Or at least they planned to build a lot of something.

 

Arguments for replacing Venators and Victorys with Dreadnaughts don't really exist any more, since they were all based on pre-Prequel publications, none of which are canon. The authors couldn't have known the CW would be explored in detail and give us completely different designs (the Acclamator, Venator, Arquitens). All of which were based on the future Imperial Star Destroyer, thus setting up a new design trend to mark the Republic/Empire.

 

A: Numbers aren't everything. The Imperial Navy was at a standstill against the Rebel Fleet....and it was smaller overall than any single Seppie Fleet.
B: Other than Thrawn, who did the Imps have in the genius department. They certainly weren't at Hoth or Endor. Meanwhile, the only bad fleet commander in the Seppie Fleet was Grievous. The Seppies built better commanders than the Imps trained.
C: Muy Malevolence and Invisible Hand.
D: ....muh Ozzle. See B.
E: And yet the Imps never fielded any weapons like the Malevolence, which could immobilize a small fleet in one shot. Would have come in handy at Hoth or Endor.
F: A hundred TIEs vs five hundred Vultures? And that's just in a single ship-to-ship engagement. No pilots for the Seppies to train or replace, either.
G: Malevolence.
H: Again, Malevolence.

The Imperial Navy is great at holding territory....just not at engaging fleets.

 

Double post....

 

REVISED.....

A: Numbers aren't everything. The Imperial Navy was at a standstill against the Rebel Fleet....and it was smaller overall than any single Seppie Fleet.
B: Other than Thrawn, who did the Imps have in the genius department? They certainly weren't at Hoth or Endor. Meanwhile, the only bad fleet commander in the Seppie Fleet was Grievous. The Seppies built better commanders than the Imps trained.
C: Muy Malevolence and Invisible Hand.
D: Thrawn was the exception. Ozzle, Piett, & Needa were the rule. See B.
E: And yet the Imps never fielded any weapons like the Malevolence, which could immobilize a small fleet in one shot. Would have come in handy at Hoth or Endor.
F: A hundred TIEs vs five hundred Vultures? And that's just in a single capital ship-to-ship engagement. No pilots for the Seppies to train or replace, either.
G: Malevolence.
H: Again, Malevolence.

The Imperial Navy is great at holding territory....just not at engaging fleets.

 

Even the Confederacy were not good at utilizing Subjugators. Then again, that tactic requires the element of surprise. I'm sure the new canon will show some similar ships, but like the interdictors, they won't be used at every conceivable battle where they could have made sense.

 

If they were so easy to refit, why were many still needing crews of 16,000 men while in imperial service? And why would it be cheaper to keep them around with those huge crew-requirements (constant cost of crew-payments)? And low intensity-duty for a vessel, that classifies as a heavy cruiser? Yeah right.

Or build them yourself. Because relying on the sources you mention is such a move motivated by wishful thinking and over-optimism, that no sane commander would base his strategies on it (and sane subordinates would go along with it).

73 VSDs at the beginning of the battle at Harrsk's construction-facility (with a dozen or so arriving later). 112 VSDs used for Daala's "great" offensive after the holdings of the thirteen warlords were consolidated.

Arhul Hextrophon. The IU-author of the ISB. My mistake, but it should have been obvious from the context whom I was talking about.

Sixty ships of imperial design left the Koornacht-cluster at the end of the BFC. At worst they only cought five to begin with. And that doesn't even account for their thrustships.

 

What do you suspect these people get paid? Enough to pay for a replacement Star Destroyer? The Dread stuck arround because it might have flaws, but it works and is way cheaper for the Imperials to refit them then building new ships, though they planned to indeed replace them once they get arround to it. And yes duties like guarding convoys, patrolling space and attacking low tech worlds. The meat of what the Imperial Fleet is actually there for.

He is an Imperial Warlord, desperation and a time of crisis is the only reason he even is a Warlord. Like Thrawn he will take whatever he can get, in the case of Teradoc he was lucky to have a fleet of VicStars fall into his lap and be able to build his fleet around it.

One way to read it, or Anderson once again had just forgotten what he was actually writing about.

I actually figured you were talking about someone from Black Fleet.

Yep and Included a colourful mix of who knows what designs.

Yep, as mentioned enough place for the few VicStars they seemed to have.

Didn’t they all choose the honourable death thing? Though yes it was rather impressive what the League managed to build.

As was the construction of just about anything major.

Money <-------------------------------------------> Real Resources

Have you looked up how small a Sector Army actually is? The Empire certainly was not kept in power by the Army, though having those really nice garrison bases must at least have helped compensate. Though guarding construction worlds is a really good idea given what the Empire is doing to it’s economy.

 

Enough to make the investment in four VSDs with the same amount of crew worth the effort. If every crew-member gets only an allowance of 250 credits per month, we're speaking of 4 million credits per month and 48 million credits per year. What would you rather have for that money? One Dread or four Victories? Including construction-costs the Victories would turn into a net-gain after five to six years.

Which I call bantha-poodo, because the Imperials obviously had no problems of quickly phasing out and replacing the Venators, but you expect us to accept the idea of them keeping the Dread?

For which the vessels they actually phased out in a short amount of time according to Legends were much better suited than the Dreads.

Or build them. Which is the obvious conclusion from the Darksaber-quote. And he wouldn't have qualified as Harrsk's major rival, if he only had to scrap his fleet together from the sources you suggest, while Harrsk manages to have a dozen ISDs under construction.

Changes nothing, that the 11 worlds of the Dushkan-League built between 20-55 star destroyers in addition to numerous thrust-ships in the span of a decade.

So you admit, that nobody noticed the resource-drain?

Only to emphasize, that money wasn't a problem. And with a whole galaxy of planets to exploit ... . Resources would also be no problem. Not with the amount of droids and automated production available. You just have to look at Destiny's Way to see how the NRDF replaces its losses against the YV.

According to Legends a Sector-Army is expected to be capable to perform a number of missions/deployments within a given sector (the 1/4/16/64-plan). Contrary to your idea the stationing of an entire sector-army on a single planet in a backwater sector suggests much bigger forces elsewhere, than the OoB available to the rebels. Keep in mind, that the garrisoning of planets is acually the Army's job.

 

Or you build a few Strike Cruisers, Vindicators or what not and replace the Dread with those, once you get around to actually building them, which takes a while if most of your ship building capacity is flowing into Star Destroyers, Superweapons and other such stuff.

#1 It was mainly a political thing #2 Their mission profile doss not yell with what the Empire feels it needs #3 pretty sure butchering them will be more useful in building new Star Destroyers then trying to do the same thing with Dread parts #4 It is a really ugly ship design, which just has to have been a factor here, because it really is just that ugly

You can believe whatever you want to and I am not defending it as the smarest move possible by the Empire, but as it is, it is what we get to see has happened.

*points up*

No, it is the conclusion you want to take from it, I just offer a different interpretation what yells with what we got told about the history of Crimson Command. Though if we really want to take a stab at random possibilities here, I go for he had a giant Abominor who lays VicStar eggs, because that would at least have been awesome.

Because he actually has a really big fleet unlike Harrsk who had less of a fleet but was currently building a bigger one?

Harrsk had spent all his time as a Warlord there, he better have set up something fancy with all that time, otherwise he would be really bad at his chosen profession, unlike Teradoc who got driven into that area with his forces after losing his original warlord territory.

Yes and as you might recall it is a big surprise to everyone that they actually could pull it off, which given that the only positive attribute ever given to them as a people is that they are really, really good engineers (though they clearly had a lot of involuntary help from the Empire) does indeed make it very impressive, so impressive in fact that it comes across as a really cheap gimmick by the author to create a threat from thin air.

Dude, people noticed, there are whole stories centered around them noticing. What is the much more intresting question here is what the Empire could actually have gotten done if they worked effectively, not spent so much effort on active self-sabotage or insane schemes.

And yet you seem to hate the thought of the Empire actually paying the crew of Dreadnaughts

Not really as you might recall, the Core is spent in pretty much anything but technological and “people” resources, anything they need in raw mats, especially the more exotic ones taken for the fancy technology the Empire loves has to come from the Rim, or beyond.

Except for the numerous times when we get told that they indeed are.

The NRDF losses are ought to be pretty small to that point actually, though not a surprise since they more often than not just refused to actually fight the Vong. Losses to the numerous planets they just gave up though is another thing and the galaxy is still recovering from that hundreds of years later.

Yep and they need a lot of Fleet help to actually do any of it.

Or that said Moff was just currently really popular and got his army, whilst a lot of others would clearly not, just like with the whole 24 Star Destroyers in every Sector fleet, when we know of numerous Moffs that did not even get one.

Yep and more often than not that works exactly as long as the locals actually cooperate and police themselves, whilst the threat of the Starfleet is actually more of a damper on any thought of revolt then the few guys in grey sitting down the road in their fortress.

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/imperial-light-cruiser

IMPERIAL LIGHT CRUISER

An Arquitens-class light cruiser, the Imperial light cruiser was a double threat, both powerful and fast. It was equipped with multiple quad laser turrets and double-barreled turbolaser batteries, as well as concussion missile launchers, while quicker and more maneuverable than a Star Destroyer. After the destruction of the Lothal communications tower, a light cruiser was used to capture and relay information from surface courier droids brought aboard.


http://www.starwars.com/databank/broken-horn

BROKEN HORN

The Broken Horn was the flagship of Cikatro Vizago, an Outer Rim smuggler. The vessel was a modified C-ROC Gozanti-class cruiser, and manufactured by the Corellian Engineering Corp. Measuring more than 70 meters long, it was perfect for Vizago's needs, with significant cargo holds for illegal goods. The ship is not designed for combat, however, and has few weapons; instead, Vizago relies on its shields and speed to make quick escapes.

 

No dimensions, or any real information on the Arquitens - and no corresponding article for the CWAS version.
What a surprise, Databank.

 

We do have an interior bridge shot with human scale chairs, and the exterior, so it is possible to scale it based on the visuals...

 

TCW is dead and forgotten!

Though we at least got a length for those pimped up C-ROC Gozanti that keep showing up.

 

The Broken Horn already had an exact length given in Rebels: The Visual Guide: while an earlier page focused on the ship itself only says "over 70m long" a later page (page 96) gives the figure in more detail- it's 72.8m long. It's on the page that shows a bunch of Rebels ships of varying sizes, side by side. And further down the page, some vehicles.

 

Ah thx Don´t own it so did not know.

 

It's no Incredible Cross Sections - but it does seem the the first "newcanon" book with lots of lengths and ships with parts labelled.

 

What kind of warship that are smaller than Corvette exist?

 

Gunboats and Attack ships?

 

Do we have any real information on space gunboats? The wook' only have info on the sea version

Are all attack ships fighters or is it something I missed?

Any other warship classes that are smaller then corvettes?

 

Something like the Wookiee gunship, I guess?