Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Nebulon Ks will have to show up at some point. I'd guess these are them.

 

And there is already a fan painting of the new TIE (got it off Star Wars News Net)

Spoiler

 

reminds me a bit of a Heinkel He 111

 

Now this is what I would have made into the FO standard TIE Fighter instead of the "OT clone with a paint job" that we got. The Empire was moving toward the TIE Interceptor design in ROTJ. Why would the FO use an obsolete design 30 years later?

 

I always liked the idea of the FO using Clutch-equivalents for their main starfighter.

 

I know right? We have the standard TIEs, the supposedly improved TIE Interceptors, and then the supposedly superior FO TIEs that, aside from a few extra bits, look pretty much the same as the standard TIEs. This kind of inconsistency takes you out of the fantasy, reminds you that the shape of the TIEs wings doesn't really effect its speed (at least not in space where there's no air resistance). It's like if they made a new fighter that resembled the Y-wing (a bomber), and said it was a speedy interceptor. It just draws attention to the fact that the stats about what ships are faster and what ships are best suited for different roles are all made up. It's like a puppet show drawing attention to the strings. It may seem trivial, but part of what made Star Wars great was that the world looked lived in, like the space ships actually worked and had a unique purpose. Going back to the old design ruins the illusion of technological progression.

 

Honestly, while I absolutely think the FO TIEs should have looked more unique, I really don't think it ruined any illusion of technological progression. The FO TIEs were shown in the movie to be much more advanced, that's much more important than having a different design. And really, nothing about the spaceships in Star Wars has ever produce the allusion that they "actually work." Anybody who knows basic physics should know that like half of the ships in Star Wars wouldn't even be able to fly in a straight line.

Ship designs in Star Wars have never been about technological progression, the Star Wars galaxy has basically plateaued in that regard. Instead, the change in ship designs is meant to indicate a change in mindset. Imperial ship designs are very much based in practicality over aesthetics, and given that the First Order has pretty much the same mindset as the Empire it does make sense that the ship designs haven't changed either.

 

I know consciously that these ships wouldn't work in real life, there's some suspension of disbelief there. I'm not asking for Star Wars to become hard sci-fi, I just want some consistency of how they work in-universe. When you have a standard ship design, a sleeker design that's said to be faster, and a throw back to the original design that's said to be faster still, it's the kind of sloppy world-building that takes you out of the story and reminds you the "rules" of this universe are just being made up by the author as he goes along, the ships can be as fast or slow as he wants with no rhyme or reason. Or, to put it more simply, if Ship A is a square, Ship B, it's faster successor, is a sleek oval shape, and then Ship C, said to be the fastest model yet, is once again a square, I'm going to notice the inconsistency, even if I know consciously that neither design would work in real life. If they've established that in this wacky sci-fi world ovals are faster than circles, I want them to stick with that story.

Also I strongly disagree that Star Wars ship and vehicle designs have never been about technological progression. Even if the technology isn't necessarily "better", it improves on the faults or weaknesses of it's predecessors. The X-wing doesn't need as many pilots to operate it as it's predecessor the ARC-170, and having more engines implies it's faster, but it sacrifices the rear gunner position the ARC had. The AT-AT's huge strides make it faster than the AT-TE (and less vulnerable to mines), but also makes it vulnerable to that cable trick. And we see the evolution of the smaller walkers: we go from the AT-RTs that leave the driver exposed, to the pod walkers from Rebels, to the AT-STs that are more heavily armed and armored. And then, from the Hasbro promotional toy line, we have the First Order's "mobile assault walker". This walker once again has the driver exposed to enemy fire, which sort of proves my point: even if these vehicles couldn't possibly exist in real life, going back to older designs ruins the illusion of technological progression, that these in-universe vehicle designers are learning from past mistakes and making improvements.

 

It's the AT-PTs that are the predeccesor to the AT-ST -- the AT-RT's were designed for a cavalry visual motif.

 

The Empire was still using the standard TIEs in ROTJ though, so it's misleading to think the basic design was being phased out in favour of the Interceptor. Besides, this is based on an assumption that the use of the TIE in the first place was based on their superiority or use of peak technology. TIEs have probably always been obsolete in that sense, but the Empire used them because they're cheap and easy. It makes sense that the FO, who are the successors to the Empire, would continue that military philosophy. But in the case of the SF version, they have come along and improved the basic design, turning it into a two-seater with rear guns. Clearly, there has been technological progression of the ships. There's a difference between keeping the chassis of a design and what's inside that chassis.

This seems based on the assumption that FO TIEs are faster than TIE Interceptors, and T-70 X-wings are faster than A-wings. We have no direct comparisons in either case. I suppose you could use evidence from the movies and extrapolate, but truthfully, the capabilities of all the ships have always been blurred in the films.

 

I would have gone with the TIE Avenger (which this new one looks a bit like). Give the FO a fighter that is competitive with the NR/Resistance fighters.

 

At least in Legends, the standard TIE WAS going to be phased out and replaced with the Interceptor, but Endor put an end to those plans. I approve of the Special Forces version having rear guns, but hate that otherwise the TIE/fo and TIE/sf look like the TIE/LN with a paint job. And yes, the lore has always said that the Empire uses TIEs not because they're good, but because they're cheap. But the First Order is supposed to have learned from the Empire's mistakes, and the TFA Visual Dictionary says their new philosophy treats fighter pilots as valuable assets instead of canon fodder.

As for the argument that "they kept the chasis, they just changed what's inside", that's like suggesting you can put the engine of a NASCAR car into a Volkswagon and have it run the same. It's the "show, don't tell" rule of storytelling: they're telling us the new TIEs are faster and better, but if they wanted to show us this they should have made some visible changes to the chasis. At least the new X-wing has visibly different engines and guns.

IIRC the TFA Visual Dictionary DOES imply the the new ships are faster and more powerful than the old ones. At the very least the Wook says the FO TIEs are "upgraded to modern combat standards." And Lost Stars has an Imperial scientist hiding in a nebula improving the weapons of the TIEs so that they can challenge capital ships.

 

That's actually been done - the prop used for the Herbie movies was a Volkswagen with the engine replaced with a much more powerful one.

 

Very well, I stand corrected (though from my brief research they didn't just change the engine, they did a lot of other modifications such as making it lighter). I guess my point is just that I want what they tell us and what they show us to line up with each other. If you're going to have a new fighter, I want it to look new, not just be told that it's new. The Falcon is supposed to be a hunk of junk that's only held together by elbow grease and the will of the Force, and it looks the part. The new TIEs are supposed to be faster, tougher, and more powerful, yet aside from a few bits and a paint job they look pretty much the same as the old models.

 

and now I'm reminded that I want a The Love Bug World in Kingdom Hearts 3 in addition to a Star Wars World

 

In canon, the TIE Interceptor isn't a successor. It was in service well before ANH alongside the standard TIE. This isn't an example of "they kept the chasis, they just changed what's inside," because they didn't do that. If you actually look, the new TIEs have an obviously different design, just a similar look. And it's really obvious just be looking at them that they're more advanced IMO. The "wing" color says a lot, instead of having these giant solar panels on the sides for energy, they now have giant radiators. Which tells us that they have better power generators and no longer need the solar panels to work, but also produce so much heat that they need to giant "wings" to get rid of it.

But that's an example of a change of mentality, not technology. The ARC-170 had more pilots because the Republic had an entire clone army at their disposal, and more pilots allowed the ARC-170 to be more effective. The rebellion has a much smaller pool of pilots. Also, you're forgetting about the V-19 Torrent and Z-95 Headhunter, both of which saw extensive use during the Clone Wars, that they only have one pilot doesn't mean that they're more advanced. The X-wing simply married the ARC-170 and Headhunter in order to produce a more versatile single-occupant fighter.

What's your source on the AT-ATs being faster? Everything I've seen suggests the opposite, they're really not built for speed. Sure, they have longer strides, an Elephant isn't faster than a Rhino just because it has longer legs. The AT-AT really isn't a practical combat vehicle at all, it's designed to intimidate above all else. Which is why it's another example of mindset differences. The AT-AT is built to intimidate, the AT-TE is built for war.

What about the much more heavily armored and powerful AT-PT? It's even more powerful than the AT-ST, just less versatile. The AT-RT isn't a predecessor to the AT-ST, the two serve vastly different roles. Which again, is evidence of the mindset change. The AT-PT was designed for large-scale battles, with the AT-RT providing recon. The Empire doesn't have much use for either of these, so they design the AT-ST to serve as a versatile machine of oppression that can function in a larger variety of situations.

Having a small recon walker isn't a mistake, it's a strategy.

 

I'll get back to the first part latter.

On the issue of various vehicles and their predecessors (ARC 170 vs X-wing, AT-TE vs AT-AT, ect.) I think we basically agree. The point I was trying to make was that while the later vehicles weren't neccesarily "more advanced" then their predecessors, they do change to fit different combat roles and in some case improve on certain weaknesses. You've even convinced me that the smaller walkers can have advantages in some scenarios.

Now, for the part about the TIEs. I disagree that they are an "obviously different design".

Here's the original TIE:

Spoiler

Here's the FO TIE:

Spoiler

And here's the FO Special Forces Variant:

Spoiler

Other than the color, the antennae, and the extra guns and seat on the Special Forces variant, they look pretty much the same. As for the "obvious" part about the wing color meaning that they're radiators instead of solar panels, sorry, they're solar panels according to the Visual Dictionary.

Spoiler

EDIT: The images have shrunk again, but if you go to their respective Wookieepedia pages you can see them better and get the confirmation that the FO TIEs do indeed have solar panels.

 

You might want to look again. Yes, obviously there are a lot of design similarities, but they're still very much a new chassis.

Fair enough, I got confused because we assumed they were radiators before there was confirmation.

Nevertheless, that they can use white as the color for their solar panels says a lot about how efficient their power systems are. White is going to give them very little energy output, so the color change still definitely implies advancement/change.

 

The normal FO version has an antenna amd a larger window. The SF has beefier connections to the panels. The front guns are also different.

I agree the differences aren't prominent though. Case in point, a friend didn't believe me at first when I said that there were two different versions of the FO fighter in the movie. It's that noticable!

My feeling is more that the internal technology is greatly improved, and I think the film shows this quite well when Poe and Finn jump into one and we see, oh wow, it's a two seater with a gunner. This is essentially our first experience with the new fighter, and the audience is supposed to register that these FO guys have advanced on what the Imperials had.

 

I get that we are shown that these new TIEs are improvements BUT I feel that was a great opportunity to use a new look. Don't just innovate the insides but also the shape and whatnot. It is sad when the film that is set about 5 min before ANH felt more like an extension of it than one set 30 years later. I get that it's poetry it rhymes but they could have done more to stretch their creative muscles with the ships. Outside of the Finalizer (which I drool over any time i see it) nothing felt super unique and really just left me wanting more. Not to say that makes the film bad or that I dislike the new looks, just that I found them underwhelming personally.

Final note: look at this thing

 

I have a feeling that ship going to look beautiful in EP 8....Again man those visuals.

 

I get a real IJN vibe. Must be the pagoda-esque bridge.

 

That's assuming they don't come up with something even bigger than the Resurgent. Which would be too bad, I like the design well enough and was disappointed we didn't get better views of it. Not like it does much either (not even a shot of it fleeing Starkiller base with Kylo Ren onboard or something like that).

TFA was really lazy on ship designs- between the X-wing, TIE Fighter and Millennium Falcon, their Incredible Cross-Sections book was pretty boring (aside from the Star Destroyer section). And all the Resistance gets is a slightly sleeker X-wing and a minor shuttle.

What's really disappointing is that the Art of TFA book had several other designs, some that looked very sharp and spiky and angular, but they just went for the safe and boring design (which was an accurate reflection of the entire unoriginal movie).

This is what a next generation TIE Fighter should look like


Or even something from the old EU Old Republic era (they already adapted the Hammerhead into the OT era as a frigate). With how ESB had the TIE Interceptor and Bomber, I hope TLJ has more imagination.

 

that TIE Butterfly is about as threatening as a puppy and as interesting as stucco

personally I want more long-pod designs like the TIE bomber/boarder and Striker, and new letter-wings

 

Can I interest you in the Scimitar assault bomber?