Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master

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    True, though we do know they did some level of upgrading at least. IIRC, the resistance X-Wing is an older model compared to the NR X-Wing
  2. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    In the case of the T-70 and T-85 X-wings, I can totally see the New Republic sanctioning new starfighters. Afterall, the heirs to the Rebellion know full well the benefits of strong fighter squadrons, plus they are very useful when patrol/protecting space lanes in a galaxy where there is no major threat. So in my mind, you'd have the NRDF fielding upgraded MC80's and Neb-B's that carry modern fighters.

    --Adm. Nick
  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    From the way the T-70 tends to be described everywhere other than Before the Awakening - I would suggest that it is still one of the New Republic's main fighters - it's the F-15 Eagle to the T-85's Raptor - outclassed a bit - but far from having been replaced.
  4. AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master

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    Honestly, it seems difficult to imagine that MC80s would serve as an effective core for the NRDF navy. They are produced by a small numer of worlds, and the first several production runs were optimized for aquatic crew and civilian use. Out of Universe they are iconic Rebel ships, and are used by everyone instead of creating new designs, but In Universe, we only know of a few score MC cruisers of various classes, compared to an explicit 25,000 ISDs and numerous other destroyers. While the Empire was massively over militarized, and the NR relatively disarmed, it seems implausable to maintain order in a galaxy that successfully rebelled in the face of tens of thousands of star destroyers and the death star with a navy built around a couple hundred mon cal cruisers.

    Also, compared to capital ships, fighters are faster, easier, and cheaper to build, and production can be spread out far wider than with capital ships.
    Last edited by AdmiralWesJanson, Jun 13, 2017
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  5. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    You bring up some great points. Given their popularity OOU, the question is how can we come up with a way IU to explain why Mon Cala cruisers were still a core part of the NRDF (based on the Hosnian Prime scene in TFA).

    Given the success of the MC80, maybe we'll learn that the Mon Cala end up offering the NEU version of the MC90 post-Jakku? Given the important role that the Mon Calamari play in the New Republic and the fact that there would be sympathy for the species given it's Imperial enslavement, I wonder if Mon Mothma was able to get new Mon Cal cruiser contruction through the Senate. [face_thinking]

    I can totally see a scenario where there is a compromise in the Senate that allows for the construction of new, purpose built Mon Cala cruisers PROVIDED that they are matched ship for ship initially by decommissioning older ships. The more defense inclined senators are happy because they are getting new warships, the more peace inclined senators are happy because the fleet's overall size isn't increasing drastically.

    Factor in the general popularity of the Mon Calamari and the fact that government purchases of their ships will provide the world with funding to recover from Imperial occupation and you have something both factions of the New Republic Senate could get behind. ;)

    --Adm. Nick
    Last edited by AdmiralNick22, Jun 14, 2017
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  6. AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm sure preferential treatment of one industrial world by the NR would go over well. Especially with say the Bothans or Ishori. And other worlds need rebuilding more, having suffered more harshly, like the Wookiees?

    Actually, enough of the Mon Calamari. They are overused. I want to see some Wookiee capital ships. And more stuff from Sullust.
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  7. Vthuil Force Ghost

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    Man, Borsk Fey'lya is rolling in his grave just reading this conversation.
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  8. Noash_Retrac Jedi Master

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    Borsk is not canon (yet).

    I don't think the Senate are just going to favour Mon Cala. Kuat, Sullust, Ringo Vinda, Corellia I'm sure contribute just as much to the NR Starfleet as every other world in the NR.
  9. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    We know that the New Republic offered reparations and rebuild numerous worlds, so I doubt any one particular world got preferential treatment. In the case of the Mon Cala, it simply wouldn't be a handout, but a transaction that helped both the people of the world and the government. The NRDF gets warships it needs to patrol all member worlds and protect space lanes, the local Mon Cala and Quarren get jobs that create income and allow them to repair their world.

    Not sure if the Wookiees have any capital ships in the NEU canon. The Sullustans should be used a lot more, given their industrial background. At least Chuck Wendig mentioned a Sullustan warship known as a "ring ship" as being part of the NRDF over Chandrila.

    In the NEU, we see Mon Cala cruisers, Alderaanian frigates (I still want to know what the heck these are), Corellian assault frigates, Corellian corvettes, and Sullustan ring ships. So there is some cool diversity already... provided authors follow up on developing these ships. I'd love the Corellian assault frigates to be an entirely new creation, not a rehash of some old EU ship. Ditto the Alderaanian frigates.

    I'm not entirely convinced that the Nebulon-B is still a Kuati design in the NEU. Maybe it will end up being an Alderaanian design. Or preferably a Chandrilan design.

    --Adm. Nick
  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    According to Wookieepedia, Ultimate Star Wars says it is - and while that book has been subject to the occasional retcon, in general that's the sort of Holocron detail that doesn't get retconned, but tends to get reused.

    Given that Nebulon-K's are used by the First Order - I would predict that their manufacturer was Kuat-Entralla Engineering - the same company that makes the Resurgents - and that they are an evolution of Nebulon-Bs.
  11. MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master

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    I would borrow a bit from legends and bring in the MC-90 as a Mon Cal cruiser with a more standardized design built to be more easily used by other races, so that the manufacture of such ships can be outsourced to other shipyards besides Dac.

    Or maybe just say that the New Republic sponsorship leads to an economic boom on Dac and other Mon Cal colony worlds which leads to bigger shipyards and them producing more ships to meet demand. It would be interesting if KDY secretly backs the FO because of how its business was ruined by the transition.

    Course, all of that is long term. For the Republic fleet in the last year of the GCW...I got nothing.
  12. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Here's the thing. Is the Nebulon-K a First Order design, or a warship fielded by the New Republic that was part of some of the Centrist fleets? Poe knows the design, so it isn't something unknown or secretive like the Resurgent-class.

    --Adm. Nick
  13. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Could be both - Kuat being a secret First Order member - but using ships like the Nebulon-K more publicly, to conceal the fact that they're building Resurgents.

    When people ask the Kuati where large amounts of money in their budgets that's hard to account for, is going, they point to the Nebulon-K and "fixing problems with its combustion shielding" as an explanation for the mysteriously missing money.
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  14. JABoomer Jedi Master

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    A small thing that bugs me: when the New Republic was established, they should have stopped buying these off-the-shelf capital ship designs from individual planetary shipyards and begun designing their own capital ship classes that could be produced by any shipyard (via competitive bid) and that are better suited to meet the needs of the New Republic fleet. We sure don't see anything like that happening so far, kind of analogous the the New Class shipbuilding program in Legends that didn't seem to go very well.
    Last edited by JABoomer, Jun 15, 2017
  15. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Well, when you consider that the Galactic Civil War between Endor and Jakku was barely a year, the New Republic didn't have much time (save for hastily constructing less than a handful of brand new Starhawk battleships) to design new warships. So retrofitting more Mon Cala cruisers and upgrading older ships is the quickest way to beef up their navy.

    Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how in the new canon the New Republic is established, outguns the Imperial Navy, and wins the war all in less than a year. :p

    Besides, we don't know enough about the NR between Jakku and TFA to know what sort of shipbuilding programs they may have instituted.

    RE: New Class in Legends, it "failed" precisely because the ships weren't familiar enough for fans. Most fans (save Fleet Junkies like us) want familiarity. Hence why by the NJO we see the New Class replaced by new classes of Mon Cal cruisers and Star Destroyers, cause fans want the same visual aesthetic that they are familiar with. Same reason we keep getting X-wings.

    --Adm. Nick
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  16. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Well, when you consider that the Galactic Civil War between Endor and Jakku was barely a year, the New Republic didn't have much time (save for hastily constructing less than a handful of brand new Starhawk battleships) to design new warships. So retrofitting more Mon Cala cruisers and upgrading older ships is the quickest way to beef up their navy.

    Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how in the new canon the New Republic is established, outguns the Imperial Navy, and wins the war all in less than a year. :p

    Besides, we don't know enough about the NR between Jakku and TFA to know what sort of shipbuilding programs they may have instituted.

    RE: New Class in Legends, it "failed" precisely because the ships weren't familiar enough for fans. Most fans (save Fleet Junkies like us) want familiarity. Hence why by the NJO we see the New Class replaced by new classes of Mon Cal cruisers and Star Destroyers, cause fans want the same visual aesthetic that they are familiar with. Same reason we keep getting X-wings.

    --Adm. Nick
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  17. JABoomer Jedi Master

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    Agree. I was more complaining about by the time we reach TFA.

    Indeed, quite a conundrum!

    I get it. But I don't think it was handled very well either. Most fans who are actually reading the novels are more than casual fans who only enjoy the movies. But the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy introduced a whole fleet of New Class vessels that we dealt with in the absence of the traditional ship classes and were basically dropped after that trilogy. It should/can be handled in a gentler and more realistic way.
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  18. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

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    Has anyone established when Ackbar and the Mon Cals joined the Alliance? Ackbar and Raddus were both Admirals before ANH, but I wonder when they exactly joined.
  19. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

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    Huh. I only just learned that Ackbar was a Rebel Admiral during ANH...
  20. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    I assume when Dac was attacked and the Mon Cala fled.
  21. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    I would speculate that Raddus & Ackbar's Rebel Cell came into existence at some point before Rebels Season 3, but formally joined the Alliance as a whole, by sending Home One to Dantooine in the Season 3 episode Secret Cargo (the Galleries for that episode, specify that the ship is the Home One).
  22. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    I wonder if Raddus was in the other Home One style MC-80.

    @AdmiralNick22 do we know when the Profundity was done being modded? Like was it recent to Scarif?
  23. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    When you consider that Rebels season #3 is only 2 BBY and that the proper Alliance is basically formed the same year, the occupation of Mon Cala presumably occurs right around this time. Mon Mothma notes in the RO novelization that the Alliance tried to come to Mon Cala's aid but failed, so it had to occur between 2-0 BBY. My assumption is as follows:

    • 3-2 BBY = Mon Cala cell becomes active, opposing Imperial policies
    • Between 2-1 BBY = Mon Cala occupied due to Rebel leanings, mass evacuations
    • Between 2-1 BBY = Early Alliance attempts to prevent Imperial occupation
    • Between 2-1 BBY = Exodus of Mon Cala exploration vessels, passenger liners, and city ships arrives at Telaris System
    • 1 BBY = Conversions begin as Rebel engineers work with Mon Cala engineers to retrofit vessels into rough classes (MC75, MC80 variants)
    • 1-0 BBY = MC75 Profundity completes retrofitting, MC80 Home One shortly thereafter
    My assumption of classes more or less breaks down as follows:
    • MC75 = city ships
    • MC80 Home One-type = exploration vessels
    • MC80 Liberty-type + wingless variant = passenger liners
    The big question I'd like answered is how long was Telaris setup as a secret shipyard? Given that the Mon Cala made sure their cities could double as evacuation ships post-Clone Wars, I'm guessing that Telaris was a pre-designated fallback point that the Mon Cala government established shipyards and a safeworld at. Once they formally join the Alliance ~1 BBY, Rebel engineers bring their knowhow and work jointly with Mon Cala shipwrights to retrofit the vessels into frontline cruisers.

    --Adm. Nick
    Last edited by AdmiralNick22, Jun 15, 2017
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  24. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    So what your thinking is that Home One and the other MC80 where not finished retrofitting when they where sent to Dantooine? Season 2 was 3 BBY right?
  25. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Season 3 is 2 BBY. I'm guessing that Home One was sent as a deep space exploration vessel would be much better suited for travel that city ships that were originally office towers with engines. Note too that the Profundity is said to be "one of the first" ships converted, so it's possible that other exploration cruisers like Home One or the Nautilian were finished before or at the same time.

    --Adm. Nick
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  26. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    Ok so things work out pretty well timeline wise. I would love to see the Profundity in its first engagement in Rebels. Like maybe they have to get some parts and stuff earlier for an unseen project and in the mid-season finale we get to see it in all it's glory.
  27. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    dp
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  28. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    triple post
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  29. AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master

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    I'd like to see Telaris be setup after the destruction of Pammant in the Clone Wars, Mon Cal and Quarren salvaging what was left from those shipyards after the Clone Wars while the Empire consolidated power.
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  30. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Is the destruction of Pammant still canon? If so, it would be a pretty damned cool connection if the Telaris Shipyards were partially constructed from the wreckage.

    Considering we still don't know when Mon Cala was liberated in the NEU, it's entirely possible that the Telaris Shipyards were the primary Rebel construction site for the entire GCW. I'd love to see it expanded on!

    --Adm. Nick
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  31. King of Alsakan Jedi Master

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    I don't think its canon anymore, with respect to its destruction. I think in the last Complete ICS revision, which I believe was Legends, that bit about the Quaestor crashing into and destroying the planet was removed for space, along with a few other notes. Will have to check tonight.
  32. A8T Jedi Knight

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    If starships crashing into planets can destory them, why bother with a Death Star? From that point of view I can kind of see why they may have got rid aspect of lore.
  33. Nobody145 Jedi Master

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    Because a Death Star is flashier. Not entirely sure how it is in NEU, but having a fleet of capital ships bombard a planet should still be pretty destructive. The Death Star has always been overkill, intended not just as a way to destroy planets but also to inspire fear (and awe that the Empire could build something like that). Well, and a moon sized mobile space station is pretty formidable but also a sign of ego. Look at Rogue One with how Krennick and Tarkin were jousting for credit for the Death Star.

    I have no idea how much of the reasoning behind the Death Star was covered in Catalyst though, that's still on my to-read list.

    No idea about Pammant in current canon, but in TCW the Malevolence did crash into some planet and that didn't seem to destroy it. Sure made for a big explosion though. I wish TCW had done more arcs like that, but oh well.

    Has anything been said about Ackbar's and Raddus' ranks in the Alliance? Like whether one was more senior? Just curious. Raddus was at the Alliance meeting on Yavin but that can be handwaved as Ackbar busy with Home One elsewhere or something like that. Hope we get more Mon Calamari background in NEU, especially with Ackbar's appearance in TCW and Rogue One's mentions of the Mon Calamari evacuation/escape.
  34. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Raddus is specifically said in the RO Visual Guide to be the commander of the Rebel Fleet. So Ackbar is presumably second in command at this point, perhaps overseeing operations at Telaris.

    --Adm. Nick
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