Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    There's always the "ISD-I is supposed to be over 2 km long" theories.

    In the context of the newcanon, I think the general idea is that ISD-I and ISD-II are supposed to be the same size - regardless of various "screenshot analyses" that produce larger or smaller sizes.

    And that the ISDs seen at Scarif are the same model as the ISD-Is seen in ANH - regardless of superficial model differences, bridge module differences, etc.

    Regarding the Immobilizer - in Season 2, we saw it with a CR-90 Corvette/Rebel Blockade Runner in its hangar bay - hence it being called out as way more than 600m, and possibly slightly over 1100 m.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 7, 2017
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  2. Star_Desperado Jedi Knight

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    I don't understand this shorty ISD business, I've never noticed any serious scaling problems with Star Wars with the exception of the Falcon interior/exterior (cinematic conceit), the compositing flub with a CR90 and Nebulon at the Battle of Endor, and the given length of Home One (now resolved). All starships within CGI are scaled precisely, give or take a bit due to cartoon stylization. The only issue is that the higher-ups at LSG haven't seen fit to give us many explicit dimensions of the new stuff, and everything's just being estimated based on EU, which mostly matches, but isn't very exact.
    However our real issue with scaling is that we don't get access to moveable turntable models to minutely measure and scale people and other starships too, we have to rely solely on visual evidence from the screen itself, and the human eye and brain are incredibly easy to fool with perspective that way. For example, the way the interior of the Nebulon Bridge is modeled and photographed, it seems like it's very small, but when you pan out to the whole model and compare its different angles in various screenshots, it turns out to be just the tiny tip of a gigantic pod that's probably the size of an entire GR75, which would be roughly accurate to the 300m length given for the entire deal.

    Additionally, with regard to the QF capacity, in fact there are 8 A-wings, one on each rack, the absent rack's ship already took off, and if you check behind the Y-wing's cockpit/ion turret you can barely see the silhouette of one of the blue A-wings that's just dropped, in front of the rear green A-wing.

    And as far as the Rogue One ISD, it's got the standard 3 double heavy turbolaser turrets and 1 ion turret on each side of the terrace, the 3 dual turbolasers in a row on front of the terrace, the quad turbolaser on each waist-notch, a newly modeled triple turbolaser turret on each side of the ventral prow, and another on each side of the main ventral hangar right behind the tractor beams. This would explain how the ISD was able to shoot down the Tantive IV from above. There are also countless little greebles that COULD be weapons, but none that I can definitely confirm.
    Last edited by Star_Desperado, Aug 7, 2017
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  3. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Welcome home, McEwok. :D

    RE: scales of Rebels ships, there are scales developed by the creative team, but apparently that doesn't necessarily mean they are canon. Leland said as much on Twitter when asked about the image that scaled Home One to 1900m +/-. I'm curious as to the length of the Hammerhead and Dornean gunships specifically, I'm guessing both are smaller than a CR90, though given that the old 150m length for the corvette is no longer canon (or at least unclear), I'm not sure where to scale the smaller ships of the Alliance fleet.

    In On The Front Lines (by Dan Wallace, check it out if you haven't great read and harkens back to the EGTW and other EU guides), MC80's are described as ranging between 1.2 - 1.5km. So unfortunately, we're still "sorting out the mess" of lengths and scales, nearly a decade and a half after our first thread! ;)[face_laugh]

    --Adm. Nick
    Last edited by AdmiralNick22, Aug 7, 2017
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  4. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I would suggest that the 126m figure probably only applies to the ROTS Corvette, which is proportionally stubbier than the ANH one. Most images I've seen online that compare the two, showcase that, if the hammer and engines are roughly the same size, the hull of the ROTS one ends up short:

    Apparently there's a tweet from Leland Chee saying it is indeed a different, CR-70 model:

    https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/805376220862894080

    which raises the possibility that someday the Databank will give them different sizes.
  5. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    I'd prefer the CR90 to remain 150m, it makes sense. Certain things are so ingrained in my psyche. :p

    GR75 medium transport = 90m
    CR90 corvette = 150m
    EF75 Nebulon-B escort frigate = 300m
    MC80 Liberty-type star cruiser = 1200m
    MC80 Home One-type star cruiser = 1300 - 1900m? (est)

    If the above remains true, I'd peg the Hammerhead corvette at around 150m +/- and the Dornean gunship at around 120m.

    --Adm. Nick
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  6. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Hence my recommendation to reserve the 126m figure for the CR70.

    Which makes me wonder - did the TCW/Rebels computer model for the CR90, operate based on a 126m figure or a 150m figure?
  7. Chris0013 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2014
    star 4
    Mon Cal ships have frequently been noted as having warmer and more humid atmosphere.....but what about ships crewed by Polar Mon Cals like Raddus. Do they keep the ships colder??
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  8. Grand Admiral Paxis Jedi Master

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    At the risk of throwing another spanner into the works, On The Front Lines actually states that the MC80 cruisers at Endor averaged between 1.2 and 1.5 km. This means that some vessels could theoretically fall above and below this range, provided that the bulk fell within it. It could just be my background talking rather than Dan's intent, but the actual wording of that sentence does leave considerable wriggle room. (My supervisor once scolded me for using an average instead of a median by saying "If I have one foot in a bucket of ice water and another in a bucket of boiling water, it doesn't matter, because on average I'm feeling pretty comfortable." It wasn't fun being on the receiving end of that, but I've been looking for a good excuse to use it ever since.)
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  9. Chris0013 Jedi Master

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    May 21, 2014
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    First....if a lot of the Mon Cal ships were actually the buildings in their cities that happened to have all the necessary systems to be space worthy ships then you would have many different sizes. Just walk thru any major modern city and you will see that the buildings are no all uniform in size. This could have been better referenced by not saying the "MC80s" but using a general term of "Mon Cal warships" so that you would include the MC30s, MC40s, etc...possibly Mon Cal ship designers are also architects.

    Second...your teacher was a moron and should not be allowed to be in a position shaping young minds if he thinks one foot in boiling water is going to do anything but guarantee several weeks in the closest major hospitals burn ward to have skin grafts surgery to replace the skin burned off your foot.
    Last edited by Chris0013, Aug 8, 2017
  10. JediBatman Jedi Knight

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    May 3, 2015
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    . . . I'm pretty sure his teacher was being sarcastic, and giving an example on how averages can be misinterpreted (such as how the average person has 1.98 arms)
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  11. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Yeah, my gut says that the 1.2-1.5km range specifically refers to any Mon Cala cruisers converted from city ships. As I've noted in this thread before, you really have three main types of Mon Cala cruiser (in terms of hull basis):

    MC75 Profundity-type = Former city ships, varying in size & role
    MC80 Home One-type = Former exploration cruisers, uniform hull sizes (+/-)
    MC80 Liberty-type = Former passenger liners, uniform hull sizes (+/-)

    It's canon that Mon Cala cruisers were converted from all three of the above. I'd argue a great IU explanation for the MC75 being less common later in the Rebellion was that the city ships were tougher to modify, whereas dedicated starships like the former exploration cruisers and passenger liners were more uniform and much more adaptable to adding weapons, armor plating, and military grade shields.

    If there is ONE thing related to MC cruisers that I'd love to bring back into the NEU canon, it was the concept from the Essential Guide to Warfare that had all of the MC80 wingless cruisers be the first new build MC80's that were streamlined and purpose built during the GCW. An interim step before the MC80B and MC90, but still purpose built.

    More than anything, it kills me that the wingless-type cruisers still don't get any love. If I could bribe Dan Wallace or Jason Fry to develop a canon backstory for these cruisers, I would. :p

    --Adm. Nick
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  12. Star_Desperado Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2017
    star 2
    Where was it stated in canon that MC80s were converted from extant civilian ships? I remember reading that in Legends reference books, but I haven't kept much up to date outside of the Rogue One Visual Dictionary which made mention of the cityships. Was that in On the Front Lines?
  13. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    dp
    Last edited by vncredleader, Aug 8, 2017
  14. vncredleader Jedi Master

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    Mar 28, 2016
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    I cannot wait to see some new canon Mon Cal ships that where made specifically to be warships and not modded vessels.
  15. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    It is if it's the Shockwave...? :p

    Seriously, though, that's mostly to do with the size of the blockade runner, right? Hold that thought. ;)

    Do the ISD-I and ISD-II actually exist in the reboot? That's a serious question...

    We have (as we always have had) two big pointy Imperial ships in the OT movie-canon, one of which has shown up in the live-action reboot, and the other one in REBELS, but what do we know beyond that any more...? What's our basis for assuming they're variants of the same class, or even approximately the same size?

    The one which shows up in REBELS seems to share a hangar bay with the Vindicator, which skews off their relationship in one direction or the other from what WEG said, since based on hangar-bay size comparisons it seems to only be around half-again bigger, so either the Vindicator's upscaled from 600m to very roughly 1km, or what we used to call the ISD-II is downscaled from 1.6km to very roughly 1km....

    The one at Scarif... well, the Visual Guide says it's 1600m, but I see there's an argument based on the bridge pod that it's 955 metres long... which, um, fits with the size of the ones in REBELS being half-again bigger than a 600m Vindicator... :oops:

    Scaling from the size of the blockade runner... depends on the size of the blockade runner. We'll get to that? :p

    Oh, I agree absolutely on that - hence my reference to the "soft retool" of the gun positions. I was just curious if anyone had an easy link to something more detailed and sophistocated than my own "Triple axial turrets! Angular flank barbettes!" reaction...

    While we're at it, though, I just noticed that there seem to be a pair of small four-barrelled point-defence guns ahead of the hangar on the ANH version (you can see them when the Tantive IV is pulled in)...

    https://lumiere-a.akamaihd.net/v1/images/open-uri20150608-27674-1jopws7_f0263d32.jpeg

    I think they're a kitbash of quad-40mm Bofors guns from a 1:600-scale or 1:700-scale model battleship, but I wouldn't recommend using them for scaling purposes. :p

    Well, that depends on how big the blockade runner is, doesn't it... ;)

    (I get to say that a lot in this reply... :D )

    That's quite a few serious scaling problems, IMHO. I'm sure it's not an exhaustive list...

    Yep - thanks for the screencap (though it doesn't always look small - there's a wide shot where one of them tries to go to hyperspace in front of Thrawn's interdictor trap)...

    I'm not disagreeing with you on the "blue A-wings" at the third slot back (front of the rear gantry) - they're very obvious when you watch the scene... but I see nothing to say that there was a pair that "already took off" in the second slot back (rear of the front gantry) - the ones we see progress in order from the front, and if there had been a pair in the second slot back, they would have to drop down under the front pair, and fit through the narrow gap between the undersides of the front pair and the tops of the Y-wings, a move which to me seems awkward, dangerous and unlikely.

    Hence my figure of six A-wings in that hangar, based on the ones we see explicitly in that scene, as well as what seems plausible to me. As it stands, that is the only basis I have for overall numbers.

    Now, it's possible that the ship carries eight A-wings per hangar under normal circumstances, but I'm not aware of anything official which confirms that suggestion...

    [face_peace]

    I thought the three guns in front of the superstructure were in triple turrets, not dual?

    And do you have a useful link for the brim-trench quads and the prow and hangar guns?

    See above for what might be a couple of small ventral quads on the original ANH version, too...

    *brushes lint off imaginary uniform* I feel this is more your place than mine, my Rebel friend...

    :oops:

    Well, the Visual Guide gives the length of the Profundity at a precise 1.20444km (or 3951ft 7 in, which is almost exactly 65% of a nautical mile or roughly three quarters of a Chiss visvia). Which is a nice explanation for the generic 1.2km length that doesn't necessarily fit the other Mon Cal hull types.

    On the other hand, that's scaled against the 1.6km "ISD-I", and, implicitly, the blockade runner. Again. :p

    Hold that thought...

    Yeah, the proportions of the Revenge of the Sith one seems to be based off the WEG material, which is pleasingly meta (I was also really amused that in Red Tails, the German destroyer is scaled up about five times its real size by ILM for visual effect)...

    Or not... the difference in proportion isn't much worse than the inconsistency with the Falcon, and it's pretty clearly meant to be the same ship as the one in the TCW episode and ANH... ;)

    One thing we do know, though, is that the middle three panes of the Revenge of the Sith version's veiwscreen are 18'4" wide (about 5.6 metres), because that's the width of the cockpit set (the outer two panes are actually cabin viewports)... anyone able to work out what that works out the overall size as?

    The ANH-style version from TCW (Supply Lines) seems to be about 110-125m, based on this:

    https://lumiere-a.akamaihd.net/v1/images/open-uri20150608-27674-1o7e44u_1cdaa055.jpeg

    By the "Hammerhead", you mean the new "vertical hammerhead" type? That can be scaled from its boarding hatch in REBELS - I get a very rough estimate of maybe 45 meters for the height of the hull, but I can't find a good side view which would help to confirm that and figure out the length with any reliability - it could be as short as 75m.

    I sort of like the idea of it being really compact - it emphasises how much ship you still get at that size. Maybe a Corellian frigate or something?

    Or something completely different...? This is really the nub here - the Profundity, the "ISD-I" in ANH, and the Vindicator in REBELS all accommodate the Corellian corvette in their hangar in a fairly well-defined way, and everyone pretty much agrees that the "ISD-I" in the live-action reboot is the same design as ANH, and the "ISD-II" in REBELS uses the same hangar as the Vindicator, and is in turn the "ISD-II" in ESB/RotJ as well...

    So insofar as the size of every big ship in the reboot canon is based on their relationship to the size of a Corellian corvette, everything effectively depends on the size of the Corellian corvette... :p

    But how big is a Corellian corvette? Well, that's a complicated question...

    If it's in the TCW cartoon, it seems to be 110-125m or so...

    If it's in Revenge of the Sith, the bridge is 5.6m wide, and we can work something out from that...

    If it's in REBELS, it's got a nice new bridge set which presumably scales to the interior, but I'm not sure if it's still the size it was in TCW, and I've not yet found anything very useful...

    If it's in ANH, it's been rescaled several times, and the most obvious source of external scaling, the escape pods, are hard to make sense of...

    Anyone?

    I now have a mental image of a long-running grudge war between the admiral and a more conventionally Ackbarish officer in charge of the system, each of them adjusting the settings back every time they notice the other one has shifted them...

    More seriously, given the "luxury liner" concept of the Mon Cal ships, I'd imagine they can adjust different parts of the ship to suit varying requirements - quarters and mess halls are an obvious starter, but they could have a force-field or something to allow the command gantry of Profundity to be different from the rear of the bridge...

    That makes some sense to me - much as I like the idea of ship-by-ship individuality, the moment we see two of the same type, that gets trickier to sustain...

    Thanks! :D

    I can't quite remember whose idea that was, but I always liked that type, so I'm glad you liked what we did with it...

    -- The Imperial Ewok
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  16. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    The Ewok has risen from the dead! What sorcery is this?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  17. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    Necromancy
  18. Noash_Retrac Jedi Master

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    Nov 14, 2006
    star 4
    Okay, that was so not off track...
  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    Yup - some screenshots suggesting the hangar bay is nearly twice the length of the blockade runner, rather than only a tiny bit longer than it.

    Lt. Hija's the main poster supporting the use of those shots to have the Devastator be 2+ km (his analyses of the blockade runner's interior make 150m the absolute lower limit for the blockade runner).

    The name ISD-I is used in a lot of newcanon reference material (Rebels Visual Guide, Rogue One Visual Guide). "Deuce" for the TESB-style ISD has been used in the comics - and Pablo's tweets have showcased that it is supposed to be short for "ISD-II" as I recall.


    While the Rebels ships look vastly more like ISD-IIs than ISD-Is (except for the tractor beam targeting array which is ANH-style) the aforementioned tie-ins specify them as ISD-Is - so we're stuck with it.

    Complete Locations was republished, updated for the newcanon, calling it the Tantive III. No more "Sundered Heart" or "Tantive IV" for the ROTS one, regardless of what Lucas originally intended early on.

    Regarding the Interdictor - the trivia gallery for the Season 2 episode specifically says it is much larger than the "classic" Immobilizer-418:

    http://www.starwars.com/tv-shows/star-wars-rebels/stealth-strike-trivia-gallery

    so "upscaled to over 1000m" is the answer.

    The Immobilizer-418 does exist in the newcanon:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Immobilizer_418_cruiser/Canon

    being portrayed as an elderly design, no longer in production. The Rebels Interdictors by contrast are experimental prototypes just entering production.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 9, 2017
  20. Tzizvvt78 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 5
    ILM's Rob Coleman said the ship in ROTS was meant to be from the same factory, not the same model:

    "One of the most fun things about this show was linking the first trilogy to this one, introducing designs that make more of an appearance in A New Hope." The cruiser flown by Bail Organa, for example, is a predecessor to the rebel blockade runner featured in the first shot of the original Star Wars. "It looks a little bit different, but you can tell it comes from the same factory."
  21. Noash_Retrac Jedi Master

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    Is this a bad time to mention my preferred size of Super Star Destroyers?
  22. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    star 8
    Regarding the Executor-class SSD - the newcanon seems to have settled on 19km (Complete Locations reprint, Databank).


    True - but before that, there was The Art of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, which stated:

    "...Lucas reveals that [the] first ship seen in the 1977 Star Wars—the Rebel blockade runner (aka the Tantive IV)—will reappear in Revenge of the Sith. Within the ship, in addition to reconstructing the familiar corridor through which Darth Vader strides, Lucas requests a new meeting room. He also approves of an idea whereby the ship could be reverse-engineered from its Episode IV Rebel version to an earlier peacetime version of itself."—The Art of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 104

    Which is probably why the ROTS novel called it the Tantive IV, too. Sometimes theres a disconnect between what comes up in Cinefex, and what Legends or Newcanon makes official. However, eventually, at least in this case, "not the same ship" became official.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Aug 9, 2017
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  23. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    OTFL and several other sources point this out, but this is also something specifically stated in the Databank on TOS. From the Home One entry:

    "The headquarters frigate of the Rebel Alliance fleet, Home One began its existence as a civilian exploration vessel and was retrofitted for military service, up-armored with heavy hull plating, triple-strength shields and extensive offensive weapons."

    The reference to the Liberty-type being a passenger liner in the new canon is somewhere, I'm just drawing a blank at the moment. Regardless, at the very least we know that MC75's are former city ships and MC80's are former civilian exploration cruisers.

    --Adm. Nick
  24. Fire Dog Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 1, 2017
  25. Star_Desperado Jedi Knight

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    Mar 5, 2017
    star 2
    what was it, the images don't show up
  26. Fire Dog Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 1, 2017
    I'm gonna try to upload it later sometime