Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

1. I don't think so.

2. They're WWII Bomber analogues.

 

Maybe the events of TLJ will bring in space-based cruise missiles....time for the GFFA to modernize.

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Some speculations/questions

• Can a Mandator IV raise shields and fire its cannons at once?
• In the TLJ:ICS terminology about weapons, in both the cutaway diagrams and the technical specifications may be helpful. The Free Virgilia-class Corvette is equipped with 2 Heavy Turbolaser Turrets. By contrast, the MC85 is armed with 18 Heavy Turbolasers (not turrets) and 18 Heavy Ion Cannons, so that kind of emplacement in ambiguous. However, the MC85 diagram points out concealed Turbolaser Batteries, which show two batteries with three barrels each. Since it is unlikely that the 18 THeavy Turbolasers refers to a total of 18 barrels (a mere six emplacements, assuming they are of the same type), the 18 Heavy Turbolasers should refer to either the number of individuals batteries (54 barrels) or the number of concealed blisters (at least 108 barrels presuming at least two batteries per blister).

 

But they have. Proton Torpedoes have been around since the first film. As far as they're portrayed they out-perform any RL missile I'm aware of. There's no in-universe reason for bombers to be used at D'Qar. There's no reason the bombs of the MG-100 can't have thrusters. The only reason I can think of is the technology has ridiculously regressed in the SW universe for whatever reason. WWII homages shouldn't trump basic in-universe logic.

 

I noted just how targeted Kylo Ren was on the blisters of the Raddus, including when he went into the hangar track, it seems it was his and his wingmates' job to take out the guns on the ship.

 

Judging from the description of the Free Virgillia-class corvette, such weapons probably exist. The Acclamator-class assault ships of the Clone Wars also had four missile launchers, which prior to the canon reboot were described as heavy weapons.

However, the question is whether or not the Resistance was able to procure such munitions; in the Legends-era fighter-scale torpedoes and missiles were in short supply even well after the New Republic was established. I imagine in the current canon it was difficult for the Resistance to get hold of ordnance; I'm trying to recall the dialogue as the last transport is loading up on D'Qar but I think there was a reference to leaving old munitions behind (probably leftovers from the Rebellion that were there when the Resistance moved in). It's possible that even the New Republic Home Fleet didn't maintain a large stockpile of heavy antiship missiles; if so it would have been even harder for some to just go missing out of the inventory and wind up in the Resistance's arsenal. Given the information that post-Concordance a number of Starfortresses were used in the civilian sector for mining work, I would not be the least bit surprised if the Resistance had to make do with commercially-available mining charges for the bombers rather than military-grade standoff antiship weapons.

Generally speaking, the Resistance seems to have been a shoestring operation. It was never intended to fight the First Order in open warfare; its purpose was to harass them and gather information to present to the Senate.

 

Hi Guys,
sorry about my bad english, but WHY the hell show star was not shields correctly? In all other SfiFi movie it is working correct!
1. shields active - no hull damage including shield generators and weapons
2. shield overload through stronger energy weapons
3. shield is down - now they can attack the hull or critical areas like bridges or eg.

And why different weapons caliber? once the act in one shot like normal pistols and once like heavy turbolaser?

Can Disney not afford a military advisers for this case?

 

Excellent post & points, Cane.

My assumption is that when the Resistance acquired the Dawn of Tranquility, it was probably either mostly disarmed or lacking some of it's wartime armament. It is said that a lot of the Resistance's ships came from New Republic salvage yards, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that when the vessel was retired from the NRDF home fleet that it was sent to Mon Cala to sit in a sort of mothball fleet. It's easier to imagine the New Republic or it's member worlds giving the Resistance unarmed vessels, as it is cover in case the FO got wind. Then the Resistance works it's back channels in the Senate and among the planetary membership to get weapons, munitions, etc.

I'm still not convinced that the MC85's armaments are as low as stated in the ICS. The only way I could buy that is if the vessels primary role was as a carrier/flagship. It was noted that it could carry four full squadrons of MG-100 StarFortresses, plus a large number of standard fighters as well. Plus I can see the New Republic choosing to rely more on fighters given it's heritage.

Of course, 18 heavy turbolasers, 18 heavy ion cannons, and a half dozen proton torpedo launchers isn't exactly chump change. Especially with those incredible Mon Calamari shields. Considering that the MC85 was designed at a time when the Empire's best capital ship (save the few SSD's it still possessed) was an ISD, I have zero doubt that the MC85 couldn't chew up a Star Destroyer without much challenge. Add in all the fighters and bombers it carries and it's not even a contest.

--Adm. Nick

 

@Geforce
There is no such thing as "correct" depiction of wildly fictional technology. I don't think military advisors from the real world could help make fantasy spaceship battles look realistic.

 

Let's not act like there isn't generally accepted rules though. If your shield is up your ship doesn't take physical damage. This stuff isn't complicated. Of course the tech isn't real but it has to be internally consistent for it to feel real!

 

STARGATE.....THE EXPANSE......BATTLESTAR GALACTICA......am I missing anything?

Audiences today want more believable fights. Why do you think the Michael Mann shootout movies are so popular?

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Internal consistency is very important, and the sequel trilogy runs afoul of it a lot more often in relation to the rest of the saga, but we are talking about "correctness" and "every other SciFi movie".

Also Stargate has military advisors for infantry tactics. They still have ships that behave like blue-water navies, just like Star Trek and virtually every other scifi franchise that ever was.

 

The last three Star Wars movies have cleared 4 billion USD combined, so I think the audience is pretty happy with the fights we're getting. It would be SUPER WEIRD if X-Wings suddenly started maneuvering like Vipers after six films of not doing that.

 

Poe's X-Wing DID during his Dreadnaught run.....and I liked seeing that kind of space-based maneuvering in the movie. So, it can be done....if the director wants it done.

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I didn't get the impression that Poe's maneuver was any different to one of those aerobraking stuff you see in earthbound movies. It's not like he's using RCS thrusters.

I think that ship sailed when we saw a ship get shot in the shield generator.

 

I agree that the Resistance's ships were probably mostly or entirely disarmed when they were acquired - the armament they have in Resistance service might be a grab bag of weapons they managed to acquire on the arms market or through back-channels afterwards and fit onto the hulls. I highly doubt they had the heavy munitions for the Ninka; a 100-megaton bomb going missing from the armory isn't just an accounting error.

As an aside, historically a military on a peacetime footing and one on a wartime footing are different animals. Generally speaking, in peacetime munitions and spare parts aren't stocked to the levels required for sustained combat operations and readiness may be abysmal. I imagine the New Republic was an example of this, which means hand-me-downs were even harder to come by for the Resistance. That may be why in TLJ we see that they're acquiring some of their weapons from the very same suppliers that are also selling to the First Order.

 

I think Poe executed a pretty textbook version of the tabletop game's Tallon Roll.



He basically chained two of these back to back, which is weird, but not a total break in the visual language the previous films and cartoons have established.


In other news, I think I may have solved my question about how many fighters a Nebulon-C carries. Towards the end of Cobalt Squadron, Admiral Holdo arrives with the Ninka and some other ships. She states that she can field a mixed force of twenty X-Wings and A-Wings. Being that the Ninka cannot carry fighters, and that the Raddus carries more than that, I think Ninka must have been traveling with Anodyne. Twenty is an odd number for the usual base-12 squadron, so I think we can round twenty up to 24 for a standard compliment of two fighter squadrons.

 

Are we sure the Ninka cannot carry fighters? We see a small hangar containing a small shuttle along the bottom of the main hull in the ICS, and it seems like there'd be plenty of room to stick others around. Perhaps the Starfortresses can dock into those outriggers it has to fill out all that empty space?

 

The Ninka certainly had a hangar large enough for the transports. As you suggest, it's likely that the starfortresses were docked somewhere.

Regarding Poe's move, it's the same kind of thing as this move from Red Tails:

 

The ICS confirms that the Ninka can carry the MG-100's on those outriggers.

--Adm. Nick

 

Which is also the most NONSENSE scene in that movie.

 

Yes it is (also a very average and underwhelming movie IMO).

 

So, putting this topic back to 2001, do we know anything at all about the Mercenary Leader's craft? From official or unofficial sources? In and out of universe?

It looks to be of Naboo make, personally I think it was a concept art for the Havoc that they eventually ended up using for the bad guy's ship. The Scurrg Bomber was made for Naboo's use, and IMO this craft looks more Nubian than the ship they ended up using for Nym.

 

What the director wants to see on-screen trumps basic in-universe logic unfortunately, as we have seen over and over in the new canon. A MG-100 StarFortress SF-17 loaded with hundreds of proton torpedoes would make a far more effective heavy bomber.

Having to pilot a slow, lumbering ship like the B/SF-17 heavy bomber "on top" of an enemy capital ship to deploy your bombs is an insane tactic, and I would be surprised if it had been used successfully prior to the D'Qar battle.

 

I think the "drop on top" approach had to do with the fact that the Resistance was trying to hit a very certain "sweet spot" in the shields or hull. Battlefront II sets up how the Resistance got the plans for the Mandator-IV, and Poe mentions a sweet spot by name in the film. It was once and a throw-away line, but it was there.