Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.
Oooh did he put up book notes in his tumblr? Do you have the link?
Actually in that screenshot of the Falcon and fighters approaching the Imperial Fleet, there were:
1 Super Star Destroyer (Executor)
36 Imperial Star Destroyers
Essential Guide to Warfare gave in Legends - 1 Super Star Destroyer (Executor), 2 battle cruisers, classes unknown (Ilthmar's Fist and Pride of Tarlandia), 33 Imperial-class Star Destroyers and 3 Tector-class Star Destroyers.
Yeah, but once TIE Fighter already has him present and busy in the Known Galaxy a sneeze before Return of the Jedi, it's not that much of a stretch to have him chime in on the Emperor's plan.
Here's the link to his final installment; it includes links to all previous installments at the top of it.
That they can have him doesn't mean that they should. The Imperial Navy is big. Have it be Teshik's plan, or Declann, or Grant.
Actually, have it be Piett. Did he get any wins?
EDIT: I mean, TIE Fighter shouldn't have used him either.
Where are these personal notes? I don't recall seeing them in the book....
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Where are these personal notes? I don't recall seeing them in the book....[/QUOTE]
"It's been tweaked to have its Class listed as battlecruiser (and have less weapons)" comes from here:
* * *
Speaking of Star Wars: The Force Awakens — Incredible Cross-Sections, we’ve tweaked a couple of details about the Finalizer. Its weapons complement is now “more than 1,500 turbolasers and ion cannons” and its class is Battlecruiser. You’ll see those changes in future printings of the book.
I'm a kriffin' fool for completely misreading what notes were being asked for. So, umm, this link is of no help. Sorry.
As @Thrawn McEwok worded it, it wasn't Thrawn's plan. It was Palpatine's. Thrawn just commented on the brilliance of it.
Regardless, Piett never felt to me like a strategist of any particular note. While he seems to be a competent leader and tactician, "master strategist" isn't a hat that feels right for him.
No, it shouldn't have; I always felt having him back in the main galaxy so soon was a mistake. But it was a mistake so old by the time Warfare came out that it could have been taking its SATs. It was settled lore.
Oh, everyone does this anyway. I just like to make a distinction between personal headcanon and what works as actual canon, and while the rest of you can make like D'harhan and headcanon away all you like, I suppose I'm personally more comfortable discussing the parameters of the established continuity...
And, with that in mind, the Ravager is still 8km long.
I see the Resurgent as being very much like the (emphatically non-fanon) small SSDs from Dark Empire - the Tiger II of big pointy Imperial things, compared with the ISD's Panzer IV?
I don't think I disagree - I was just trying to point out that the design (if not the actual ship) is a conventional ship-duel dreadnought repurposed as a gun-barge, and the movie dialogue actually emphasises the dual role....
Oh, I didn't think you were - and thanks for the kind words, too! I was just feeling self-conscious trying to talk about things which had come up in WARFARE, and I felt I needed to admit how that impacts on my thinking on the topic.
Personally, I see the Endor issues in the pre-reboot as a result of entirely understandable "chaos" rather than awkward "bloat" (each to their own, as you say; more on this below), but I wanted to emphasise how decisions - including the way this was presented in WARFARE - are sometimes made based on perceptions and other "story" considerations rather than on pure continuity reasons...
What "fix"? What I'm saying is that the presence of the Grand Admirals doesn't actually complicate matters, because they're there as part of the coteries of advisors, aides and courtiers, and their individual contributions are simply part of the chaos after the original chain of command disintegrates (the real problem is Prittick from TTABSB)...
Thinking about this some more, though, I'm struck by how Luke's presence derails the Imperial plan - from the moment the Tydirium arrives in-system, things start to unravel; Vader leaves the Executor, then rather than watching the battle with his advisors, Palpatine shoos them out and is focused instead on the completely different scenario with Luke and Vader, and as a result, this leaves Piett in charge, trying to fight Lando when he has specific orders directly from Palpatine which severely limit his options..
You mean HttE?
Regardless, no offence taken. This was really just a matter of me "showing my working" when raising the question of who actually came up with the Endor plan...
Pretty much - I really just think the resemblance of the plan to a mirrored Yavin, and the question of whose the plan was, are topics worth discussing...
And the movie makes pretty clear that the plan wasn't Piett's. Or Vader's, for that matter... so we're left with Palpatine, who is a politician/wizard rather than the sort of person who normally does these things, Jerjerrod, who is more of a logistics wonk, or somebody off-camera...
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For me, everything in the TIE Fighter game works for simple rule-of-cool reasons, though IMHO, there's still some ambiguity about whether Thrawn was actually exiled by an angry Palpatine, or simply placed out of the way of scheming rivals, or engineered the whole scenario as a way of deliberately distancing himself from the Empire during the civil war...
- The Imperial Ewok
Why do you say the Ravager is 8km long? It shows up in both Battlefronts, and is scaled to 19km Executor size in both.
The Allegiance-class from Dark Empire ended up being gunboats, to the ISD's carrier - more like an extrapolation from the Tector than of the ISD.
The Secutor is an extrapolation from the Venator, right down to the twin command towers.
The Resurgent, I'd say, is also Venator-ish (having a big flight deck foward of the belly hangar, for launching fighters from.)
Though the size of its belly hangar, and of its reactor dome, does make it have more in common with the ISD than with the Tector, the Secutor, the Venator, or the Allegiance.
"ISD-successor" fits the Resurgent better than it does the Allegiance. I'd also say it looks more "ISD-ish" than the Pellaeon-class does.
1500 is still way too much for a 3km ship.
The ISD has 60 two-gun turbolaser turrets and 60 1-gun ion turrets in addition to its main armament.
I demonstrated earlier in the thread, that if most of the Resurgent's turrets are 8-barreled small turrets, it can have a number of them that is fairly appropriate for its size.
I wonder about that moment sometimes. Vader sensed Luke's arrival instantly yet Palpatine didn't (their family connection or an early sign of things falling apart), but otherwise most things went according to how Palpatine foresaw it. Luke knew his presence already revealed the Rebels' presence yet they still made it through (and Piett didn't know to let them through intentionally either, well, he was "only" an Admiral compared to Vader and Palpatine). Even with Piett's orders, the Rebels' chances of victory were pretty low. It just so happened that the Rebels made friends faster with the Ewoks than anyone ever possibly expected which led to them overwhelming the Imperial forces on the moon and gave the Rebel fleet a chance.
Has any source (old EU or new) ever said whether the Death Star kept firing even after the Rebel fleet moved to point-blank range? The movie doesn't show any more exploding cruisers after that point, but considering how less "forgiving" Palpatine is, I wasn't sure if Jerjerrod would have actually fired through Imperial ships to get at the Rebel fleet. Which still would have been a net benefit for the Rebels at least (making the Imperial victory far most costly than they had expected).
Well, once the fighters made it inside the Death Star superstructure he probably was distracted about what to do next (as things onboard are literally so chaotic that seeing someone drag Darth Vader around doesn't get much attention, but then most officers probably know to avoid Vader if they have any choice at all). I forget if the "blow up Endor just in case" order made it into nu-canon, that might actually fit with how spiteful Operation Cinder was.
I think the general idea is that their presence, and more importantly the established fact that three of them escaped to the fleet and at least one was in a position to join the fight against the Rebels, means that the chain of command shouldn't have disintegrated; that clear rank hierarchy exists specifically so chain of command in chaotic situations is clear. And, while it's not nearly that clear-cut in the real world, it typically is in fiction for reasons of perception and story, so the Grand Admirals ... complicate matters.
That said, I think Warfare handled those complications well, especially since it uses a lot of the same arguments I'd been making for years. ;-)
I think it's pretty clear it's Palpatine's. He's a politician/wizard, but he's also a master strategist who coordinated both sides of a galaxywide war to his advantage. While he's usually fine to delegate strategy to others, the final death stroke of the Rebellion - an event that he's made the effort to personally witness - is exactly the thing where he'd bring his own incredible strategic savvy to bear.
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Is there really still ambiguity about this? I thought it was pretty well established by this point that it was the latter of those three possibilities.
I don't think the Empire even gave the possibility any thought. The Ewoks, with their stone-age technology, were beneath the Empire's consideration.
I can't say for certain, but I don't believe so. The fleet is there to keep the Rebels from escaping; blasting Imperial ships with your superweapon just gives the Rebels openings to make a break for it.
I was just skimming Legacy books today and came across what McEwok just mentioned: Megador keeping an entire fleet bottled up.
Was the book a Denning book?
Cause if so- Denning isn't reliable when it comes to fleet stuff. In fact, he's one of the worst.
I thought this had been discussed when the first trailer came out (and I wasn't paying any attention to the fandom)...
The wreck of the Ravager in TLJ is clearly not the same type as the Ex - all of the engines are the same size, in contrast to the seven large and six small ones aboard the Ex, and the triple engines below the wings are located directly beneath the rear edge rather than forward under the hull, leaving no intervening position for additional engines, and simultaneously implying a significantly narrower hull overall, while the fantail is much smaller in proportion to the rear engine trio as well.
In short - a smaller, nine-engined SSD. Sound familiar?
Yeah, this means that every Imperial-era SSD in screen canon except the Executor is now a member of the 8km WEG / EGtVV class.
The lack of a ventral hangar doesn't mean a lack of deck capability - the Allegiance could potentially launch TIEs through the brim trench, long-established as my headcanon about the class based on the Eidolon Project tech from the XWRS comics and, coincidentally, exactly what the Resurgent does as well, with the brim-notch bays alone carrying 64 TIEs on the visible slots of their (very Eidolon-like) racks, in addition to a meaningful level of stormtrooper-transport and shuttle capability (ICS suggests at least 176 TIEs between these two hangars alone, plus a significant extra capacity in the forward hull).
The Allegiance and the Resurgent still seem more cosely comparable to me than the other types - they're both up-scaled versions of the ISD configuration with a spearhead hull, three engines aft and a big round whatever on the underside (I still prefer the original identification of that component as a hyperdrive vane, especially as REBELS establishes that the ISD's drive space isn't spherical), they both achieve a sleeker and more streamlined silhouette by using "pointed" superstructure terracing, and both types suppress the classic design's ventral TIE launch capability - the key difference is that the Allegiance retains the ISD-style command tower and suppresses the ISD-style ventral bay, while the Resurgent does the opposite...
In OOU terms, the ventral bay seems to have been "restored" to the Resurgent design at quite a late stage, presumably to make the type look more ISD-ish - note the lack of one on the otherwise well-developed piece of production art at http://i.imgur.com/mtsVWNK.jpg - which explains the trouble that the Resurgent goes to to relocate the TIEs, shuttles and stormtrooper transports to the brim trench; but if we're looking for an in-continuity explanation, ICS shows that the Resurgent's ventral bay performs a very specific role...
Because the movie depicts the brim-trench hangars as the main staging ararea for TIEs, shuttles and stormtroopers, ICS seems to characterize the ventral aperture as a dedicated facility for the two roles that the brim-trench hangars can't perform - a "capture bay" for small capital ships (including resupply vesels, given that the "logistics hangar reception bay" opens off) and an AT-AT deployment stage, a superficially incongruous combination which makes more sense when you realise that the big landing craft designed to drop AT-ATs by the platoon from an ISD - the Telgorn Warlord and the "folding" barge we see in the XWRS comic - take up the whole ventral bay.
The division of responsibilities makes the ventral bay seem llike a restoration of a very specific capability that was lost on a preceding "hangarless" design - a design which would be a very close match for the Allegiance.
The other differences in design could plausibly be explained as variations of a common hull - the "overbite" at the bows (formed by removing the dorsal armoured overhang from the brim trench and adding an outrigger on the ventral lip), and the new style of "decentralized" command tower / superstructure (though as I already noted, the Resurgent does inherit the sleeker pointed terracing of the Allegiance and the other DE refits)...
Anyway, while I do ultimately agree with you that the Resurgent is indeed an "ISD-like" ship that is designed to be understood (both by the audience and the characters) as an "ISD-successor" in some sense, the sheer size of the ship (around four times the overall size of an ISD), with proportionally hefty requirements in terms of crew, TIE support and resupply, makes this in practice an "ISD-shaped SSD" and a much less practical type for the sort of ubiquitous duties the ISD was given (and also a close conceptual twin for the Allegiance). Ultimately, we only see the Resurgent-class ships deployed in a group as the accompanying fleet for the Snokemobile, just as we only see multiple Allegiance-class ships escorting the Eclipse - and in that sense, I think we can also think of this "Allegiance-successor"...
What Snoke is doing - which is also what Palpatine was doing in DE - is imposing a distinction between the "ship-of-the-line" role and the "main fleet role", and pushing a special, huge, ISD-shaped SSD into that second role...
There's obviously a lot of secrecy involved - an interesting indicator of the level of paranoia about Rebel spies and sympathisers...
Even Vader was given a one-line order ("Send the fleet to the far side of Endor"), and given that order verbally in the throne room, where comms couldn't be intercepted. That was to have been followed up by another brief order, eventually delivered "personally" to Piett (whether this involved comms is less clear), which was simply to move the fleet out and close the trap - he didn't pass this to his subordinates, and may not have been aware that the DS was ready.
Not that I can recall right now - Lando's "We might just take a few of them with us" might actually refer to the possibility, but even this doesn't confirm that Jerjerrod continued to fire when the two fleets did close up. I suspect that the cut sequence where Jerjerrod ordered the DS rotated towards Endor was designed in part to explain why the DS had stopped firing on the fleet (and there's also the curious fact that, given the angle of the Ex's dive, the fleet battle seems to have ended up above and even behind the DS, and thus out of the line of fire), but the simpler answer is that Palpatine's distraction with the duel may have come into play once the Imperial fleet blocked the line of fire - Jerjerrod wasn't going to take the risk of hitting Executor without approval, and the throne room was ringing off the hook...
Thanks! We agree here, at least on the principle of things - "perception and story" are what makes Endor complicated, IMHO, not the fact that Grunger eventually got aboard an ISD (though I'll throw in the thought that in terms of senior officers with active ID transponders, Vader's personal shuttle is still on the board)...
I'm not so sure - precisely because Palpatine was in full control of both sides (to the extent of having created both armies, and having the clones programmed with loyalty overrides), there was no actual military competence required, just a smoke-and-mirrors game - by a politician/wizard with full access to the plans and insights of both sides - to stop anyone realising what he was doing, by throwing curveballs at them...
The interesting thing is how much the Endor plan is based on assumptions - I suspect Vader was supposed to stop the Tydirium from even getting to Endor, an assumption complicated by Luke's presence (interestingly, like Caedus many decades later, Palpatine can't properly factor Luke into his Force-meditated plans, which also explains why Vergere seemed to have such a hostile subtext towards the presence of a rogue Solobrat, and also her negative reaction to Ben Skywalker); and once the shuttle's down on Endor, Palpatine relies on an assumption that the sheer quantity of stormtrooper materiel will stop the Rebels getting into the bunker (in actual fact, they get in twice - letting them get in and get the blasting charges half set-up and then hastily jumping them was not part of any Imperial plan; the sight of one officer, one NCO, and two gunnery techs hastily running in the open back door leaving a solitary stormtrooper standing guard is not part of a well-ordered response, nor is the sight of the colonel in charge of the actual deflector shield generator charging into the control room without backup, and getting pitched into a hole in the deck by Han using a shockball throw and a toolbox - the arrival of Lieutenant Renz and half a dozen stormtroopers did temporarily thwart the Rebel team, much as the arrival of half a dozen TIEs temporarily interrupted the Rebels' attack runs at Yavin, but that shouldn't be mistaken for an organized plan proceeding to a schedule; what we're seeing here is a completely disorderly response that only just succeeds, and while the number of troops in-position outside the rear access has increased by the time that the Rebels are marched out, I'm now struck that there seem to be only around thirty actual stormtroopers - the rest are either "desk soldiers" or dismounted biker scouts, suggesting a rather hasty gathering of forces)...
That was a lot of brackets. Anyway, my point is that while the outline of Palpatine's plan is excellent, the handling of the tactical details is incredibly shallow, relying not only on a crude weight of numbers in a way that tends to weaken responsiveness and coordination, but also on the expectation that the Rebels will perform in specific and predictable patterns - in particular, the assumption the Rebel fleet would manoeuvre in a unit at a distance from the Imperials and attempt to disengage to preserve themselves (which in hindsight, is a valid assumption about how Ackbar would behave, but discounts the possibility that someone like Lando will do exactly what Lando does)...
And meanwhile, while Piett tries to work out how to obey orders he recieved directly from Palpatine while actually fighting off Lando's tactics effectively, Veers is holding his AT-ATs and all but one platoon of his stormtroopers in the wrong place, perhaps believing that Han's attack was just a feint, or that the Rebel fleet would deploy some heavy ground forces - Endor Forest Rangers! - for a frontal knock on his shield perimiter. And then the 501st get eaten by a horde of Ewoks.
And that isn't a metaphor.
And I thought that the middle option was the one that was most obviously flagged up. The problem is in part that Palpatine, the conservative Navy faction, and Thrawn, are each pursuing a plan that's trying to navigate and manipulate the plans of the other two, and (at least in the pre-Purggil continuity ) we had no insight into first-hand POVs of the actual events...
Another way the plan doesn't work.
To be fair, Sinre did basically make this point before I did.
- The Imperial Ewok
No. Should it?
And should we really extrapolate the dimensions of scrap metal war wreckage that appears on-screen only briefly when the very director of the movie it appears in couldn't get any facts straight whatsoever? And do the appearances in the Battlefront series not count as canon for some reason?
I think, even at the time of the TFA trailer, people were examining the wreckage and concluding that it was reasonably consistent with the Executor prop from the OT:
The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers.]
The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers.]
The Force Awakens and the EU [TAGGED spoilers.]
Judging by the perspective of that screenshot, the 10th and 11th engines would not be visible from that POV, obscured by the left (to the viewer) engine of the big three, and out of frame on the right.
I've always been confused as to how the Megador did that to the entire Hapan Home Fleet. Upon a closer reading of the text, the space battle goes as follows.
The Anakin Solo, Megador and accompanying assault fleet arrive in the Maad system. Their reversion point puts them at the start of a long, narrow "safe lane" from the numerous celestial obstacles that festoon the Maad System. At the far end of the Throat(that's what Saba called it) was the staging platform for the Jedi starfighter wing, Uroro Station.
Upon the approach of the enemy fleet, all of the transports carrying Jedi younglings and support personnel flee the station and head for the debris field that adjoins one side of the Throat. Under Caedus's orders, the assault fleet from the Imperial Remnant chases them into the field. A foolish mistake, as a lone Star Destroyer supported by a couple cruisers and fighter wings can deal with an unarmed convoy.
The fleet reaches the field where the Jedi shuttles scatter for Shedu Maad. The Remnant fleet turns to pursue and are promptly ambushed from behind by the entire Hapan Home Fleet, which was hiding in the field the entire time.
After this, the Megador and Anakin Solo push towards the field to try and save the rest of the fleet. The Megador's got a trio of long-range turbolaser batteries that it already used to destroy Uroro Station. Those guns are presumably effective against the smaller Hapan Battle Dragons and Novas, because the Hapan Fleet is then described as being on the run. Surprising that the Hapans ran from a Super Star Destroyer when they had no trouble with the Iron Fist at Dathomir.
The Anakin Solo then jumps to Shedu Maad, with the rest of the fleet, while the Megador presumably hold position in the asteroid field to keep the Hapans at run.
“The last I heard, the Megador had those Hapan scolds on the run, and we were getting ready to jump with the rest of the fleet.”
I say this because the Black Annie is subsequently boarded by the entire Jedi StealthX wing, without any mentioned difficulty. Given that the StealthX wing was driven off by the Megador earlier, this suggests that it's not at Shedu Maad with the rest of the fleet.
“The Megador still has most of the Home Fleet bottled up at Uroro Station.”
“So it’s just the Dragon Queen and a few of Ducha Requud’s Battle Dragons up there. Since the attack on the Queen Mother, SigTel has been picking up a lot of comm traffic between the Anakin Solo and the Deserving Gem.”
So the Anakin Solo and the rest of the fleet are busy engaging the handful of Battle Dragons over Shedu Maad while the Megador is busy elsewhere, keeping the majority of the Hapan Fleet at bay. The text suggests that they fled the field to the remains of Uroro Station. This is an example of Denning writing fleet battles in a vague fashion as @AdmiralNick22 mentioned. Uroro is described as having been destroyed by the Megador earlier. Why would the Hapan Fleet flee there?. Perhaps to seek shelter and distance from the Megador's guns?
After the Black Annie is captured, the Hapans are said to be microjumping to Shedu Maad, away from the Megador and to the captured Anakin with the Moff Council aboard.
"The ground assault on Shedu Maad had failed with Tahiri’s surrender to Ben, and the elements of the Anakin Solo’s crew that had not defected to the Jedi in the last half an hour were either dead or on their way to dirtside detention chambers. The Moffs did not even have a realistic chance of reinforcement from outside the ship; with Battle Dragons reverting to realspace every couple of minutes as they managed to disengage from the Megador, the space battle itself was clearly shifting in favor of the Jedi coalition."
The remaining Imperial ships presumably switch sides with their leadership ordering them to and the Megador, as mighty as it is, is can't carry the fight by itself against the combined Imperial and Hapan fleets. What happens to it after this is unclear, though it does survive. @Sinrebirth in his excellent LOTF fanfiction has the Megador return to the Roche System with the Jedi Coalition forces to dictate a peace to all surviving factions. I wouldn't think the Megador would surrender to it's former allies so easily. The correct course of action is to retreat from Shedu Maad and return to Roche to receive orders from the highest ranking surviving officer, Admiral Bwua'tu.
This is definitely one of the more vague battles of LOTF. The action seems to be all over the system, with the Hapan Fleet being trapped one moment and then free to return to Shedu Maad the next. They even take refuge at a space station that was described as being destroyed earlier. Very confusing.
Denning's fleet battles have always been a mess. They tend to be generic, he refers to everything as a "Star Destroyer", and he was always a tad bit too minimalist for my tastes.
Fall of Coruscant is an example - it's hard to picture what New Republic and Yuuzhan Vong assets are present when all you've got is Star Destroyers, Cruisers, Frigates and Corvettes for generic descriptions. Heck, even that 1 km long Kuati battle cruiser is impossible to think of and I don't see it as a Republic-class cruiser seen in Destiny's Way.
I can see why the Hapan fleet may have had less trouble with Iron Fist; after being presumed destroyed at Selaggis she had gone back to Dathomir for repairs and may have been a sitting duck in spacedock. I forget how much damage the ship had actually taken in the battle, but with Gara Petrothel's little mouse droid insurrection her hyperdrive may have needed an overhaul. On top of that Han Solo reprised his 'Kiss my Wookiee" one-liner and blew the Iron Fist's bridge to hell before the Hapans finished the ship off.
One of the annoying things about Denning's take on space battles was that for all the importance of the new "long-range turbolasers," they didn't seem to be particularly powerful weapons - a hit from Anakin Solo on the Falcon merely went straight through the gunnery tunnel without doing much other damage. I'm not sure whether to put that down to plot armor, the weapons being the starship equivalent of sniper rifles (accurate and far-reaching but not devastating), or if the bolts were so focused that they would just blow through a lightly-armored ship without transferring much energy to the target.
I think Megador had the Hapan fleet pinned down with suppressing fire rather than outright obliterating them. Even if she was a smaller 8- or 12-km SSD that's still nothing to mess with, especially if she could just kite the Hapans with impunity.
Fractal just finished up redoing his Imperial-class model, she sure is pretty: