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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralWesJanson, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Just had a thought: we may see Starhawks in Resistance. Either way we are getting new designs for new ships, but this may finally be our chance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  2. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    The Raddus and Profundity are ok. The other first order and Resistance ships are boring copies of OT ships with very little imagination. TLJ bombers were stupid and Snoke's ship was even more so.
     
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  3. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    I disagree. Aside from the ships that are literally upgraded models, how are the other ships "boring copies"?
     
  4. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Copy maybe the wrong word. (Un)Inspired by is better.
    Ren's TIE fighter a boring inspiration by Vader's. Ren's shuttle a boring inspiration by Vader's. Ninka a big boring inspiration by Tantive IV. The First Order Dreadnought just makes me laugh at how bad it looks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  5. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Urgh, the haters really are unimaginative.

    The support ships of the Resistance are to me second generation versions of the Rebellion era ships.
    The First Order ships are oversized (compensating for something else) next gen Imperial ships.

    I liked all the designs and was sad to see them destroyed but they might turn up again, depending on Ep9.
     
  6. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2010
    You must have really hated the EU then.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  7. seeker_two

    seeker_two Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2003
    The ships found in TEGTV&V and TEGTW were magnitudes better than anything found in the ST....especially with the level of creativity and practicality demonstrated.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
     
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  8. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Honestly, the tendency to generalization on both sides here is really annoying. The ST includes two movies' worth of designs - I've already noted that I liked TLJ's ships better than TFA's, and I use the word ships specifically because I don't particularly care for the First Order AT-AT analogue. And the old EU has decades worth of stuff in it - there's room for plenty of both abject laziness and brilliant creativity in there.
     
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  9. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2007
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I can't even produce an EU/prequel rebuttal for this, as no one even bothered to do anything with the corvette class. That being said, the Ninka looks less like its spiritual predecessor than any other Resistance ship.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Prequel wise, the Consular ships, literally the first thing onscreen, are cribbed from the same concept art as the CR90 (and/or the Falcon/"pirate ship"), which also are the basis for the DP20 in the EU, so that must count.

    In my mind, it's only TFA (which as a film I like a lot) which is blatantly guilty of uninspired ship/tech design. R1, TLJ and SOLO are up to the best standards of the OT and PT. For my money, that's a really strong track record. Out of ten films, only two, TFA and AOTC, are less then epic in terms of this stuff, and even AOTC has some gems while its clunkers are at least brave.

    If IX sees the FO fielding updated TIEs in the mold of Kylo's, I'll call it reasonable evolution with just a little lag time... FO TIEs really bug me, but what can you do.
     
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  11. Long Snoot

    Long Snoot Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2018
    The annoying thing about the TIE/fo is that ROTJ already estabilished a TIE/ln successor 40 years ago, and it looked more original than the more recent model. It could be estabilished that to mass produce TIE/in (or an upgraded variant) as the mainline fighter would be too expensive even for the First Order, but then the fact that even the "elitè" TIE/sf looks pretty much the same is even more confusing.
     
  12. MrDarth0

    MrDarth0 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2015
    In one of the reference books (forgot whether it was VD or ICS) for TFA, its mentioned that the FO TIEs have shields, all of them, not just the special forces version. So it could be argued they're more advanced than the TIE/In, even though it doesn't look like it in the movie...

    And the FO TIE/sf is way more advanced than any common fighter employed by the Empire. Shields, hyperdrive, dedicated gunner, gun turret and missiles. The thing is very similar to the Imperial TIE Defender in its capabilities. Sadly the filmmakers still want the TIEs to just be canon fodder for the heroes in the movies, so they're still being blown by the dozens, even though it should be much harder to do so compared to the Imperial era TIEs.

    If we would apply real world logic (which we probably never should when it comes to SW ;)), the FO should just produce TIE/sf, as every pilots life is valuable. Better yet, they should just upgrade Thrawn's TIE Defender design and not produce anything else. But that's what the Empire should have done if they wanted to win...
     
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  13. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 26, 2016
    @TheRedBlade. The TIE Avenger is meant to be the production version of Vader's fighter. Of course it looks similar. Same as an F-22 Raptor looks like the YF-22. Ren's TIE is like a Chinese J-31.

    I don't particularly like Palpatine's shuttle because it's trying to look like a Lambda class shuttle but be completely different at the same time. I don't see a progression like with the Z-95 to X-Wing.

    Dark Empire was good in that it at least attempted to bring in some new ships. I'm not a big fan of the E-Wing's look in the comic (fan made adaptations are much better) but the Eclipse is one of my favorites and Fractal Sponge's model of the Bellator blows away anything from the ST.
    http://fractalsponge.net/?p=155
    Compare that to what Marvel are doing right now, pillaging ancient ships from KotOR and using ships from other franchises (and not in an "easter egg" way).
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  14. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Anyone else found it clever that the Separatist ships in the clone wars era look at least somewhat similar to their rebel successors 20ish years later? I think that was a least a little inspiration for them they kept in mind when designing ships for the prequels and the clone wars.
     
  15. Senator Wan

    Senator Wan Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2017
    Isn’t the ARC 170 the predecessor to the X-Wing? I thought the Z-95 was an older ship by the time of the Clone Wars?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  16. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2016
    From Wookieepedia: "It was directly descended from the old Z-95 Headhunter, built by Incom and Subpro, with lessons learned from the ARC-170 starfighterof the Clone Wars."
     
  17. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2007
    And the TIE Silencer is a lineal descendant of the TIE x1 and the TIE Interceptor. Think of it like the X-Wing to the ARC-170. (more on that later)


    DE and Fractalsponge like big, lumpy Star Destroyers. The First Order likes big, lumpy Star Destroyers.

    Particularly given who flies the ARC-170 in the X-Wing tabletop game, I'm comfortable with calling the 170 the mother and the Z-95 the father of the X-Wing.
     
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  18. Blackhole E Snoke

    Blackhole E Snoke Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    The ARC170 was designed by Lucasfilm to look like an earlier ship from the same Incom company as the X-Wing and Z-95. I don't mind that.

    The TIE Silencer (hate that name, makes me think of exhaust pipes) was designed by Disneyfilm to look like Vader's TIE Advanced with elements of the Millennium Falcon and Vader's suit. I believe the design also had Lego toy sets in mind. I don't like that.
     
  19. Long Snoot

    Long Snoot Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2018
    I always liked to see the Z-95 evolution in an almost biological way: a common ancestor to which two different specialised evolutionary lines descend. The good old Z-95 was developed before the Clone Wars and later evolved into two different designs which filled two different roles: the upgraded multi-role "clone Z-95" (which led to the X-Wing) and the heavier ARC-170. As strategists began to prefer smaller and more manouverable fighters the Z-95 was phased out in favour of the V-Wing, and under the imperial doctrine ARC-170s were too. When it was time to replace V-Wings Sienar proposed the TIE-line, Kuat the RZ-1 and Incom the T-65.
     
  20. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2015
    So by 1bby the Rebel Fleet only had only two Mon Calamari cruisers? The Profundity and Home One?
    Because Raddus lends The Profundity to the rebel alliance after he joins and The Home One was seen in Rebels over Dantooine.
     
  21. vncredleader

    vncredleader Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    We see two Home One style MC80s at Dantooine so at least three where around.
     
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  22. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 17, 2007
    At this point, we're arguing subjective taste, rather than the objective reality that the concept artists for the sequels did the exact same thing the prequel concept artists did. We're done with this.

    Paging @AdmiralNick22, though you might just need to go back a few pages.
     
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  23. DarthCane

    DarthCane Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    My headcanon for why the First Order decided to derive the TIE/fo and TIE/sf from the TIE Fighter is based on the current canon designating the wings as solar collection devices feeding the ship's systems rather than diffusion systems for heat as Saxton suggested. As the TIE Fighter has a greater panel area than the Interceptor, there may have been more growth capacity for features like a shield generator. Frankly, the Interceptor has always been puzzling in that respect - in the Legends sources, it somehow manages to exceed the TIE Fighter in every way (speed, agility, armament, and also armor in the X-Wing/TIE Fighter games) while retaining the same hull and smaller wings. Generally you don't get "something for nothing" in aerospace engineering.

    As far as which fighter to produce, logistics come into play. During WWII, the USN had two excellent carrier-based fighter aircraft available - the Grumman F6F Hellcat and the Chance-Vought F4U Corsair. The Corsair had a definitive performance edge over the Hellcat, but it was also about two-thirds more expensive to produce and had a reputation as an "Ensign Eliminator" due to its landing characteristics. The Hellcat by contrast wasn't as spectacular a performer but was still good enough to clean an A6M Zero's clock, less expensive to produce, and easier to fly. Later on in the 20th century most air arms had to split their combat aircraft buys between "high-end" aircraft (F-14 Tomcat, F-15 Eagle, Su-27) that were no-holds-barred superfighters and "low-end" aircraft (F/A-18 Hornet, F-16 Falcon, MiG-29) that could be procured in large numbers without busting the budget at the expense of compromising performance, range, sensors, armament, etc. Even if the First Order is focused more on quality than the Empire was, they have to build enough fighters and train enough pilots to outfit hundreds of capital ships and who knows how many bases. The TIE/fo is a relatively cheap way to fill those hangar racks; the less-numerous TIE/sf provides the capability for longer-range operations with a heavier and more diverse weapon loadout.
     
  24. Long Snoot

    Long Snoot Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2018
    I've come to accept the TIE/ln's mass production and the TIE/fo's wing configuration by linking them to its versatility.
    I'm pretty sure that the "micro-adjusting thrusters" and "wing repulsorlifts" mentioned in the RO UVG are meant to both justify the TIE/ln's VTOL capabilities and crazy atmospheric handling in canon: we've seen them suddently stop mid-flight, move directly in other directions and angle down to engage ground targets while hovering. This makes them a pretty good fighter both inside and outside the atmosphere and for both patrol and intercepting roles (while the Alliance, for example, would have to use T-47s AND T-65s to fill effectively both roles). Add in the fact that the Empire had to fill in a whole galaxy of ground installations and carriers, that they had more of a "police role" before the Alliance was born and that the TIE's versatile design allows for the easy manufacturing of specialised variants and the TIE/ln becomes a much more viable option than A-Wings and X-Wings for the main line starfighter of a galaxy-wide military.
    Now that's where the TIE/in comes in. Unless it will be stated otherwise, I've decided to assume that its particular wing configuration does not allow for easy placement of the wing repursorlifts mentioned in the UVG, but still make it a faster and better dogfighter. Unlike its Legends counterpart, the Canon Interceptor is not simply a "better TIE/ln", it's a more specialised fighter that's not very viable as a "main line" weapon. For the same reason, the TIE/sk was developed as a specialised atmospheric dogfighter, the TIE/rb was introduced as a heavy attack fighter (ARC-170 successor (?)/X-Wing counterpart) and the TIE/b is a bomber.
    I like to assume that the TIE/fo was developed with the same idea of "all-around fighter" in mind and that there are upgraded interceptors, strikers and bombers around, just off-screen. The TIE/sf is presumably the TIE/rb's successor, it's only a bit weird that it doesn't use its armored cockpit design and relies on an actual gunner instead of a droid brain.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
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  25. Tzizvvt78

    Tzizvvt78 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2009
    I don't think making slight tweaks to OT designs is somehow doing exactly what the Prequels did. Every design, especially on the starfighter front, is a lazy rehash. It's like if the CIS suddenly designed a TIE fighter with green highlights and called it a day.
    Or the Republic made X-wings with the engines splitting apart instead of the guns.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018