Amph For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5

Discussion in 'Community' started by The2ndQuest, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Consider this a SPOILER THREAD.

    Probably the only other franchise that competes with Star Wars in my mind- J. Michael Straczynski's masterpiece broke ground in TV with it's epic extremely planned-out story arc and fictional history, paving the road for future shows such as Farscape, Lost and Battlestar galactica to be made possible.

    Not only that, but it's spin-off material are, in most cases, even more canon than that available for Star Wars, as it has even more input from it's creator, making them as canon as the show itself.

    It certainly changed the way I looked at TV shows, and while some of it's successors have surpassed it in the area of character stories (BSG and Lost come to mind), the overall mythology and story arc of B5 has yet to be surpassed by any other TV show, IMO.


    Babylon 5 is composed of 5 seasons, 6 TV movies and the TNT ( ::patooie!:: ) aborted spin-off series, Crusade, which had 13 episodes before TNT killed it:

    -The Gathering
    -Season 1: Signs & Portents
    -Season 2: The Coming of Shadows
    -Season 3: Point of No Return
    -Season 4: No Surrender, No Retreat
    -Thirdspace
    -Season 5: The Wheel of Fire
    -The River of Souls
    -The Legend of the Rangers: To Live and Die in Starlight
    -A Call To Arms
    -Crusade
    -In the Beginning


    The notable spin-off material includes:

    -The Shadow Within by Jeanne Cavelos
    -The Passing of the Techno-Mages: Casting Shadows by Jeanne Cavelos
    -The Passing of the Techno-Mages: Summoning Light by Jeanne Cavelos
    -The Passing of the Techno-Mages: Invoking Darkness by Jeanne Cavelos
    -To Dream in the City of Sorrows by Kathryn Drennan
    -"The Psi-Corp Trilogy" - Dark Genesis: The Birth of the Psi-Corp by J. Gregory Keyes
    -"The Psi-Corp Trilogy" - Deadly Relations: bester Ascendant by J. Gregory Keyes
    -"The Psi-Corp Trilogy" - Final Reckoning: The Fate of Bester by J. Gregory Keyes
    -"The Centauri Trilogy" - Legions of Fire: The Long Night of Centauri Prime by Peter David
    -"The Centauri Trilogy" - Legions of Fire: Armies of Light and Dark by Peter David
    -"The Centauri Trilogy" - Legions of Fire: Out of Darkness by Peter David
    -In the Beginning novelization by Peter David
    -Thirdspace novelization by Peter David
    -A Call to Arms novelization by Robert Sheckley
    Comics:
    -In Valen's Name #1-3 by J. Michael Straczynski & Mike Collins
    -#1: In Darkness Find Me by J. Michael Straczynski & Michael Netzer
    -#2: Treason by J. Michael Straczynski & Michael Netzer
    -#3: In Harm's Way by Mark Moretti & Carlos Garzon
    -#4: The Price of Peace by Mark Moretti & Michael Netzer
    -#5: Shadows Past and Present by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway
    -#6: Against the Odds by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway
    -#7: Survival the Hard Way by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway
    -#8: Silent Enemies by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway
    -#9: Duet for Human and Narn in C Sharp by David Gerrold & Rebecca Guay
    -#10: Coda for Human and Narn in B Flat by David Gerrold & Rebecca Guay
    -#11: The Psi Corps and You! by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway


    And, now, JMS is publishing a limited 15 volume series containing all his scripts for Babylon 5, including introductions for each episode, photos from his collection and even his original notes. That and B5 quote merchandise can be found at The Joe Store at www.b5scripts.com .
  2. sidious618 Force Ghost

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    Apr 20, 2003
    star 6
    A comic series is coming together, too. I'm looking forward to that.
    :D
  3. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Yeah, we also almost had a theatrical film last year, but that fell apart.

    Which is a shame, though at least it avoided them recasting Galen (as Peter Woodward was busy with a pet project of his at the time), which really would have sucked. Maybe JMS will be able to get things running again. We need to get the Telepath War told before the actors are too old.
  4. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

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    I'm ashamed to admit I've never seen any of the TV movies, just the series. :(
  5. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    In the Beginning is the best of the bunch- it's hard not to tear up during the President's speech on the eve of The Battle of the Line, or Londo's narration towards the end of the war. And Kosh actually sounding sad in the one scene.

    A Call to Arms is the next best one. Good story and great action all around.

    Thirdspace is solid, and though it suffers from "side-adventure inserted into Season 4" syndrome, it has a bit more of a horror aspect to things that is really interesting.

    Legend of the Rangers was decent, and obviously was designed to be a pilot film for a potential series. It gets points for some fun characters (the Minbari, Narn and Drazi ones being the most entertaining) and a unique, if slightly anticlimactic, resolution, and, of course, G'Kar.
    Unfortunately it suffers in a few places- the 3D weapons system didn't work out (though that's mainly due to the fact that they came up with it at the last second after they couldn't afford what they originally wanted), a few of the supporting crew members get little development (but would obviously have been expanded had it gone to series) and they use the Ranger mantra of "We live for the one, we die for the one" waaaaaay too much that it becomes very irritating.
    Still, I have no doubt it would have worked out very well if it had gone to series- it just unfortunately had the poor luck of airing against what ended up being one of the most watched football games ever.

    River of Souls is also decent, but feels like an extended episode of the series rather than a movie. Some good humor though, and lighter fare than the other films.

    The Gathering is intriguing, but as its the pilot, so many things feel off that it's hard to enjoy it as much as the others.

    They have a boxset of all the movies, shy LOTR, which is getting a standalone release in march.
  6. JediTrilobite Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 1999
    star 7
    I love Babylon 5. The entire arc, the characters, almost everything about it. Great series.

    It would be really, really cool if Zoic went and redid all the special effects. :p
  7. Lord_Ogli Force Ghost

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    Oct 5, 2001
    star 4
    I too am a big B5 fan and I love re-watching it for all them little details i missed the first time around.

    Such as in the Gathering where Kosh meets (albeit the fake) Sinclair and he greets him as "Entilzar(sp?) Valen" Just a perfect example of how close it ended up being to the original idea despite all the problems they had getting it made.

    I love all parts of B5 but my least fave has to be Legand of the Rangers. To me it just got too many things wrong. Suposedly mimbari ships that just don't look at all mimbari. The fact that the rangers would kick someone out for not throwing away his lifer neadlessly. That stuped weapons system. Oh and at then end, where they see B5, Where was Epsilon? Its still good for some parts, I'm just not sure if the good outweiged the bad in this one.
  8. JediTrilobite Force Ghost

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    I haven't seen any of the movies yet, my friend who has all of the boxed sets doesn't have that one yet.
  9. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I could be wrong, but it's possible the "Entil'zha Valen" line wasn't added in until the Special Edition.


    As for Legend of the Rangers, I think it has a lot going for it, but it definitely suffers from being rushed and underbudgeted (weapons system, etc).
  10. sidious618 Force Ghost

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    Apr 20, 2003
    star 6
    LOST better than B5? I think not T2ndQ. :p
  11. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Not the show as a whole, but in certain areas, yes, Lost has surpassed B5, but it wouldn't have been able to do so without B5. B5 as a whole is still superior.
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  12. burrie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2000
    star 4
    For the past few weeks, I had a very satisfying experience. It's unlike any I had before, and I kinda doubt that I will ever go through anything like it any time soon.

    Namely, I had the distinct pleasure of seeing the entire Babylon 5 series back-to-back, starting at "The Gathering" all the way to "Sleeping in the Light". All that, without knowing any sort of spoilers, without knowing where the storyline was heading into, and without knowing who was going to survive and who wasn't.

    It was a bloody satisfying experience.


    Honestly, I've been quite a bit hyped about it ever since I've finished it, so I hopw you folks won't mind if I pour out my thoughts here, this might be quite long. Feel free to ignore, regardless, but I really have to get it off my chest.

    (naturally, the rest of this particular post will have distinct B5 spoilers)

    Season 1 started out quite nicely. Although I did get a Star Trek vibe from it at the start, it quickly dissolved when I started to notice neat lil' touches. The episodes seemed to overall fit on their own, and not quite the big arc as I had initially heard of. Naturally, as I would realised later, season 1 is practically about introduction us to the universe, as well as setting things up in various subtle ways. When I started to notice little continuity nods here and there, even minor nods to events that happened prior, I started to get into it. I have to admit that I found the vision that Sinclair got about the destruction of B5 rather haunted me throughout the rest of the seasons.

    Overall, I liked quite a few characters, and took a very quick liking to Londo. When I generally mention him, I get the image in my head of him laughing at someone else's expense with a drink in his hand at the casino. That's how I generally liked him. At times, I felt that too much focus was placed on Sinclair, especially when he went into dangerous missions on his own. The rest of the cast seemed solid, aside from Talia Winters, whom felt off for me. Points go out for Morden, whom I found to be genuinely scary.

    Generally, the latter episodes got me hooked. Kosh seemed to be more than a simple one-trick joke, something odd was going on with Delenn, I was curious about Morden's 'associates', and events were set in motions on Earth. Babylon 5 had captured my interest, I was along for the ride.


    Season 2 is where I started to see what Babylon 5 was all about. The storyarcs began to develop. The Shadows were starting to reveal themselves. A few answers were given, and more questions raised. A new captain introduced, seemingly out of nowhere(which jarred me a bit). And of course, the "The Coming of Shadows" episode. I think that I was strapped in at that point. What had seemed to me to be overall a nice way to have snide comments and a possible plot for a episode storylines became an actual war. And was over surprisingly fast, but had genuine consequences.

    At that point, Londo was a marked man. He had the blood of a few thousand aliens on his hands, more would come because of his decisions... frankly, there was no way that he would get a happy end, I was sure of it. And as the latter seasons would show, he would pay dearly. G'Kar evolved to a bit of a likeable character. Sheridan grew on me. Garibaldi was the fun roguish type. More was revealed each episode about the nature of the characters, organisations and the races... things were heating up for one big conflict.

    One thing that I liked is how Season 2 ended. Overall, I found the story to get rather dark with little hope at all, until Kosh revealed himself. It genuinely gave a feeling that there was still hope. I mean, the good guys had a bloody angel on their side.


    Season 3 is where the build-up was over. The pieces were in place, and by George, they were going to be utilised. The great shadow war started. Earth actually became bad, and Babylon 5 split off from Earth, one twist that really had my head spinning, I completely hadn't expected it to happen. And while it was all happening, a subplot that had been prepared with D
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  13. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Yeah, the show is an incredible experience- I avoided most spoilers while wtaching the initial widescreen Sci-fi airing, and it blew me away.


    >>I take it that I'm not the only one who was somewhat choked upon seeing the station that had been the centerpoint of an 80-hour storyline blown up?<<

    I think that scene had that effect on most people. The music is beautiful for that moment.


    And yes, there was a short-lived spinoff series called Crusade (which picked up from a TV movie called A Call to Arms) but it was purposely sabitaged and eventually aborted by TNT. It had a lot of potential though, and was quite a good series, if watched in the right order (the DVD order represents the almost incoherant original airing order TNT forced).

    There are also 5 TV movies (not counting The Gathering):
    -In the Beginning (the story of the Earth-Minbari War, as narrated by Emperor Londo; this one is great)
    -Thirdspace (a sidestory set in the middle of Season 4, revolving around an artifact found in hyperspace)
    -River of Souls (set on B5 a couple years after Sheridan left, involves the Soul Hunters)
    -The Legend of the Rangers (a backdoor pilot for a new spinoff series that came to fruition, revolving around a Ranger crew)
    -A Call to Arms (sets up Crusade)

    All of them, minus LOTR (which is an upcoming seperate release), are in a DVD bxoset.
  14. DarthReven Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    I love B5! Now granted, i've only seen the Begining, the Gathering, and the 1st season, but i'm hooked! Its So wonderfully made!
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  15. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Here's a little bit of trivia those of you just getting into B5 may not know: "Sleeping in Light" was actually taped immediately after Season Four as JMS thought thought there would be no fifth season in syndication and JMS wanted to wrap up the series' most crucial points for the fans in the event he couldn't find an avenue for a fifth season. So "Sleeping in Light" was actually meant to be the Fourth Season finalie but was held until the end of Season Five after TNT came in and produce and air season five on their cable station.

    Additionally Claudia Christian (Ivanova) left the series amid a messy contract dispute after Season Four. Since Ivanova was supposed to be the Captain of Babylon Five in Season Five, Tracey Scroggins Captain was created at the last minute, hence why the only time we see Ivanova in Season Five is in "Sleeping in Light." Which actually worked out better seeing as they had just killed Marcus off (:mad: ) at the end of Season Four.
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  16. burrie Jedi Master

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    May 27, 2000
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    The2ndQuest

    Mmm, truth be told, I have very little interest in learning more about the further exploits of the Babylon 5 season, mostly because of the excellent way things were summarised at the end of Season 4 and 5.

    However, I did see "The Beginning" two days ago, which I have to admit was a nice way to go full-circle for me. A nice prequel to show how events got started for everyone. The only real complaint I had is the involvement of the many B5 characters. Of all the Narns out there, G'Kar had to be the one who was doing business with Earth? Of all the Centauri out there, Londo had to be the one who sabotaged a mission, leading to the Earth-Mimbari war to continue? I could understand Sheridan undergoing an important mission, but Franklin and G'Kar joining him on said mission? Granted, it is understandable to have familiar faces, but it still felt kinda off and made the universe seem a bit smaller. I could live with it, mind you.

    Those nitpickings aside, I was amazed at how young the characters looked, especially Londo. I take it that this was filmed after Season 5, and the work they did to make the characters look younger was handled bloody well. And despite the fact that I did know how things were going to turn out, some scenes were beautiful. As with the Babylon 5 destruction, I take it that I wasn't the only one who was choked up when the president made her final plea for everyone to hold off the invasion, so only a precious few could escape and live on?

    Finally, I liked that Londo was still able to entertain and tell his story right before he died.

    DarthReven

    Ach, hang in there, and I hope that you won't get to see too many spoilers. You're in for one helluva ride.

    Juliet316

    I've been doing quite a bit of reading regarding Babylon 5 after finishing the final season, but hadn't come across that, thanks Juliet. I suppose the fifth season finale would've worked nicely at the end of the fourth season, but I'm glad JMS got to wrap things up his way. At least this way, we got to see that the crew's actions would, ultimately, lead up to humanity become one of the Older Races.

    Now I finally understand why Lochley didn't seem to have any sort of role in the Season 4 finale as it is. Granted, most of the crew had only known her for less than a year, and her role wasn't really as big as the rest of the cast, but I was surprised to note her absence during the farewell of Babylon 5 scene.

    Regarding Claudia, I'm still somewhat confused on that. From what I've read, she had to sign a contract before a certain date, and in the end, she simply hadn't given any word about what her plans were, forcing to the producers to eject her from the fifth season?

    Continuing on, from what I've heard, Ivanova was originally going to play the role that Lyta was doing? ie. the whole falling-into-love-with-Byron, joining the telepaths, yadda-yadda-yadda? On one hand, I can see that this might've worked out nicely(putting her latent telepath abilities to good use and the previous tragedy with Marcus could play a role in it), but I think that I kinda prefer that Lyta got the role. Overall, I always found her treatment, while understandable, rather unfair with the rest of the cast. She had quite a good reason to turn against the station, she had always pretty much been left out of the group, only invited when they needed her. Byron gave her a sense of what friendship could be about. Overall, I don't see how Ivanova could've been in her place.

    On the other hand, I take it that the storyline would've been altered significantly had Ivanova taken that role. I've read about these trapdoors that JMS had for his characters, and I suppose Lyta was Ivanova's. But still, with the lack of Ivanova in the final season, Marcus' sacrifice seemed a bit... off. Granted, it was in-character, but it's too bad that they never really went further into it.
  17. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >>I take it that this was filmed after Season 5<<

    Between 4 and 5, actually- it's why, for example, you have photos of Sheridan from ITB in Deconstruction of Falling Stars when that was filmed as the new season 4 finale.


    >>As with the Babylon 5 destruction, I take it that I wasn't the only one who was choked up when the president made her final plea for everyone to hold off the invasion, so only a precious few could escape and live on?<<

    Yep, sad but poignant moment.



    >>I've been doing quite a bit of reading regarding Babylon 5 after finishing the final season<<

    You'll want to delve into the episode guides at The Lurker's Guide, awesome resource.


    >>I suppose the fifth season finale would've worked nicely at the end of the fourth season...Now I finally understand why Lochley didn't seem to have any sort of role in the Season 4 finale as it is...Continuing on, from what I've heard, Ivanova was originally going to play the role that Lyta was doing? ie. the whole falling-into-love-with-Byron, joining the telepaths, yadda-yadda-yadda?<<

    It would have been a mix of the Lochley and Lyta roles- Ivanova would have been in charge of the station (the voice over in, i think it was Rising Stars, was added to have her reassignment cover her departure) and would have fallen for Byron, seeing him as someone similar to Marcus, while Lyta would have still be his second in command, essentially. Then Ivanova would realize Byron was not who he seemed to be, and be forced to call in Bester.
  18. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    That's correct; it was tracked in by JMS and Ardwight Chamberlain for the 1998 TNT producer's cut. In the 1993 PTEN broadcast version, Kosh doesn't say anything during the docking bay scene (which itself used some drastically different camera angles from the later edition).

    More broadly on that particular scene, the Vorlons knew that a Human was going to be important, and that the Human race in general would have an important role to play in the coming war, but it is unlikely that Valen would have given away too much about his own identity.

    He'd want to keep as much as possible from them, in order to preserve the timeline. Don't forget that among the things that Valen knew about that Kosh didn't, is when Kosh was going to kick the bucket -- so he probably kept the Vorlons at arm's length and fed them information strictly on a need-to-know basis.

    (As for speculation over the years that Kosh was surprised, it seems the most likely reason for him to think "Entil'Zha Valen," when he was confronted with someone who looked just like Jeffrey Sinclair. If he knew all along that he was going to meet Valen in his Human form, and that Sinclair was the commander of the station, surely something like. "Ah, Commander Sinclair" would be more likely to run through his mind.)


    It was largely because Claudia Christian left effectively without giving notice, and on very bad terms with JMS and most of the cast. She then spent months waging a very public fight with JMS, falsely claiming he had fired her, that TNT and WB tried to cheat her of residuals, and a number of other absurdities.

    (The basic SAG contract sets the conditions for residuals. No studio could evade them, or would be stupid enough to try. Residuals are calculated according to different formulas for basic cable shows than they are for first-run syndication shows, which may have been the source of Claudia's confusion.)

    She later admitted that she had quit the show, but by then production on S5 was over. While they were still shooting the series, neither JMS nor most of the cast would have had any interest in bringing Claudia back for a guest shot, and it is unlikely that she would have accepted had one been offered. Michael O'Hare had left on good terms with JMS; his decision was made early enough that JMS was able to plan adequately for it, and not only did they agree to O'Hare's return for "War Without End" in S3, the actor also agreed to shoot the messages that Sinclair would leave for Garibaldi and Delenn before he left Los Angeles at the end of production on S1.

    Though JMS and Claudia have since buried the hatchet and are friends again (appearing onstage together at cons a number of times these past few years), and Joe was fond enough of the character of Ivanova that he brought her back to B5 (and let her meet Capt. Lochley early in 2262) in
  19. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >> I now suspect that the infamous "Atlanta Memo" was deliberately leaked to Aint-It-Cool News (a site already largely hostile to JMS and B5 to begin with) <<

    Actually, at the time, I think AICN Coaxial was still under Glen's watch wasn't it?, and he was a huge fan of the show, IIRC.
  20. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    Right, it was (and Glen was working his little tail off trying to get Crusade secured at Sci-Fi or elsewhere), but the latent hostility was still there, largely due to such wonderful fandom mensches as "Robogeek" and "Herc" (both of whom would later take over AICN Coaxial at various points after Glen's departure).

    And TNT knew this; there's a buddy of mine who was privy to much of the goings-on out there in LA at the time, and who was kind enough to fill me in on the *real* reasons for the scuttling several months before it became common knowledge.

    For the newbies to the story, and who might be interested in checking out the series on DVD:

    What happened after the second (February 1999) production hiatus was, TNT could have sold its rights to Crusade, or another network could have picked up the show once the 13 episodes had aired over that summer. (Because TNT ran the show twice each week, both its first-run and single-rerun exclusive would have been used up.) Indeed, the Sci-Fi Channel offered to buy the rights from TNT, despite the fact that their new-show budget for 1999/2000 had already been allocated.

    The deal-breaker was the B5 reruns. From information I later received from my friend over a couple of phone conversations, who was connected with the negotiations (and as JMS later confirmed), Sci-Fi would not take a chance on Crusade if it didn't also have Babylon 5 -- a proven ratings-winner that it had lost in a bidding war to TNT a year or two earlier.

    TNT demanded so much money to give up its rights to the B5 reruns early (my friend described their proposal as "a ransom note") that Sci-Fi was unable to make the numbers work, and had to withdraw its bid for Crusade...which was what TNT wanted all along. Not only didn't they want the show, they didn't want anyone else to pick it up, succeed with it, and make them look bad.

    Nice bunch of folks. Very mature. Note that I'm using the term "TNT" to refer to a pretty small group of execs in their original programming department, many of whom are no longer there. (Which makes Warner Bros.'s position on the Crusade commentary situation doubly idiotic. JMS never named names in talking about these twits, some of them are gone anyway, and what happened between them and JMS is hardly a secret -- it's been the stuff of Internet gossip for six or seven years now. Who exactly are they protecting? And from what?)


    ...Oh, and burrie -- knowing you're a major Star Wars EU aficionado, run, do not walk, and grab whichever of the Del Rey B5 novels you can find.

    They're every bit as canonical as the TV series, scenarized by Straczynski himself, and conclusively answer several of the burning questions left over from the show (David Sheridan and the flash-forward liberation of Centauri Prime in "War Without End," the history of the Psi Corps, Bester's final fate, Galen's history with the Technomages and several plot-points from Crusade, et al)./>
  21. burrie Jedi Master

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    May 27, 2000
    star 4
    2ndQuest

    You'll want to delve into the episode guides at The Lurker's Guide, awesome resource.


    Now there's an awesome resource. Especially like the little insights that JMS provides at time. Especially cool to actually see the big man behind a franchise posting on messageboards, usenet and what have you.

    It would have been a mix of the Lochley and Lyta roles- Ivanova would have been in charge of the station (the voice over in, i think it was Rising Stars, was added to have her reassignment cover her departure) and would have fallen for Byron, seeing him as someone similar to Marcus, while Lyta would have still be his second in command, essentially. Then Ivanova would realize Byron was not who he seemed to be, and be forced to call in Bester.


    Ah, so Lyta was basically compressed into her own original story and Ivanova's? Well, I suppose it could've worked.

    I suppose this is also why Lochley's role was, overall, rather small? It makes sense that they wouldn't give a new character such a prominent role without any real background to draw upon. Still, she gave a sense that Babylon 5's staff was basically moving on, and a new one was being introduced. Her final shot onboard Babylon 5 with the other crew seems to add to that.

    Leto II

    She later admitted that she had quit the show, but by then production on S5 was over. While they were still shooting the series, neither JMS nor most of the cast would have had any interest in bringing Claudia back for a guest shot, and it is unlikely that she would have accepted had one been offered. Michael O'Hare had left on good terms with JMS; his decision was made early enough that JMS was able to plan adequately for it, and not only did they agree to O'Hare's return for "War Without End" in S3, the actor also agreed to shoot the messages that Sinclair would leave for Garibaldi and Delenn before he left Los Angeles at the end of production on S1.

    Well, it's quite a pity how some things worked out, especially with Ivanova. She was one of those characters that grew onto me, and her eventual leaving was quite tragic as it is, as was Marcus' demise. I'm still glad to see that she got a cameo in the final episode and gave her role some closure before the show ended.

    Regarding O'Hare, I'm still amazed how well that came out. Although I was slightly considering that there might've been problems with contracts or the like due to the fact that his dissapearance was very sudden at the start of Season 2, War Without End solved things magnificently, making it seem as if it were planned from the start. Hell, I got such a different perspective from the seemingly random "Babylon Squared" after seeing that one.

    (again, for the record, at first, I wasn't aware that B5 was so tightly planned, hence I was surprised early on when things from the past were referenced or plotlines easily picked up again)

    I'm curious tho', if he had stayed on the show, would his story basically been the same as Sheridan's, with some slight alterations? As in, that the final episode of Season 5 would've actually shown the older Sinclair going back in the past to become Valen? Has there been any sort of light shed on that?

    On the record, I'm surprised how quickly Sheridan grew on me. I think that it's quite a feat that they managed to completely swap captains, and give them both quite a different way of working. At first, I expected that Sheridan was gonna be a Sinclair-clone, but far from it.

    (and I take it that I wasn't the only one slightly grinning when Sheridan and Sinclair were working together?)

    I now suspect that the infamous "Atlanta Memo" was deliberately leaked to Aint-It-Cool News (a site already largely hostile to JMS and B5 to begin with) in an early bid to piss him off and make him walk off the show. Which is more or less the way things turned out, although he did return for a time. After the whole thing was over, Warner Bros. brieflly considered suing T
  22. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    star 10
    >>Especially like the little insights that JMS provides at time.<<

    My favorite one was when someone asked him where the Minbari got the Trilumari from, back in Season 1, and JMS said something like "they found it on a ship a thousand years ago" or some such (meaning B4)- you know JMS was posting that with a huge grin on his face at the time, hehe...
  23. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    Though "Sleeping in Light" was filmed *during* the fourth season, intended to close out the show when it seemed that a fifth year was questionable, if not impossible...Claudia was still with the show, and hadn't yet pulled out.

    When the TNT greenlight for Year 5 came through and she jumped ship, "Sleeping" was put on the shelf for a year, a new fourth season finale shot ("Deconstruction," which features a knowing reference to a certain "Captain Lochley," who'd already been cast), with production commencing the following week on the first fifth-season installment, "No Compromises."


    You know the old saying? "A picture's worth a thousand words"?

    Well, what we have here are *two* pictures:


    Though, if you're looking for more microcosmic info, here's Joe's own words on the subject:

    Posted on Usenet 6 December 1994:

    Okay, alternate-universe time to answer your question....

    "What if Sinclair had not left Babylon 5?"

    (Isn't this kinda like the Marvel What If? comics... "What If Dr. Blake's Nurse Had Been The One to Find Thor's Hammer?")

    The differences would be more noticeable in the later episodes of this season, rather than the first batch, which are still dealing in large measure with the after-effects of the season finale.

    So the first few episodes would have been somewhat the same in some ways to what is there with Sheridan. The problem that I had was that he [Sinclair] was becoming (and would have become) mainly a problem-solver character; there's a squabble or a problem between other characters who are rising in profile (G'Kar, Londo, Delenn, etc.), and he solves the problem in some way. These, to me, were the least nteresting episodes of our prior season.

    It would'v
  24. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Okay I have a couple of questions:

    1) I remember, when I watched the first run of B - 5's first season the ep where B4 appears (I forget the ep title now), there's a scene of the older Sinclair in the space suit as his younger self, Garibaldi and the rest, get the heck out of dodge. We see a hand touching his shoulder and in the first airing of that episode, it's revealed to be Delenn as she was originally (bald with head crest) telling Sinclair it's time to go (I'm not imagining this people!). In later versions we just see her hand and Delenn's voice. In "War Without End part 2" the same scene plays again only this time only this time it's revealed to be Mira Furlan in Delenn's hybrid makeup.

    So my question is, WAS I imagining the first run airing of the B4 first season episode, or did JMS edit first season Delenn out of later airings of that episode knowing that when "War Without End" aired it would be revealed all along that it was season 3 Delenn touching his shoulder in the first season ep?

    2) does anybody know anything about Andrea Kastulas (G'Kar) dying of Cancer?

    EDIT: I need more sleep [face_blush]
  25. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    As far as I am aware, they never showed Delenn in that scene as it was always planned for her to transform via the chrysalis at the end of the season, and they didn't want to spoil that.


    And, DAMNIT, Andreas did die! That completely sucks. He WAS G'Kar. So sad.



    "G'Quon wrote, "There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."


    "I believe that when we leave a place a part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in these halls, when it is quiet and just listen. After a while you will hear the echoes of all of our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone, our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit that the part of me that going will very much miss the part of you that is staying."


    "The Universe speaks in many languages, but only one voice.
    The language is not Narn or Human or Centauri or Gaim or Minbari.
    It speaks in the language of hope. It speaks in the language of trust.
    It speaks in the language of strength, and the language of compassion.
    It is the language of the heart and the language of the soul.
    But always it is the same voice.
    It is the voice of our ancestors speaking through us.
    And the voice of our inheritors waiting to be born.
    It is the small, still voice that says 'We are one'.
    No matter the blood, no matter the skin,
    No matter the world, no matter the star,
    We are one.
    No matter the pain, no matter the darkness,
    No matter the loss, no matter the fear.
    We are one.
    Here, gathered together in common cause
    We agree to recognize this singular truth and this singular rule:
    That we must be kind to one another.
    Because each voice enriches us and ennobles us,
    And each voice lost diminishes us.
    We are the voice of the universe, the soul of creation,
    The fire that will light the way to a better future.
    We are one. "