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"Force forgive me"...why did Ben ask the Force for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sohaibiawan, Oct 7, 2006.

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  1. sohaibiawan

    sohaibiawan Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2004
    When reading Bloodlines, I was taken aback by Ben's line "Force forgive me"...why would Ben look to the Force for forgiveness? The Jedi have never really considered the Force an entity, and I myself, being a religious person, found it slightly offensive. Any opinions?
     
  2. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    I think it's the "living force" idea. In Ben's mind he had committed a crime against nature. It wasn't a call for a deity to forgive him, but that he's used his Force-given gifts to kill. Also, remember that Ben isn't an adult, and he has a strange relationship to the force. As someone who was so traumatized through the force during the Vong war, he may have a slightly different relationship to it than others, and being so you he may just be assigning principles to the force that don't exist.
     
  3. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 11, 2005
    The Jedi view of the Force could perhaps be interpreted to be a
    kind of pantheism. Some Jedi do seem to take this kind of view.
    And "Force forgive me" could be just a saying like "God forgive
    me" although the "god" in this case would not be like the Earthly
    god of the monotheistic religions. Perhaps to be said after acts
    that one fears have taken oneself towards the Dark Side?
     
  4. SlackJawedJedi

    SlackJawedJedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2004
    Fooooooorce forgive me. IIIIII neveeeeeeer meeeeeeeeant to hurt yoooooooooou.


    Ahem.


    Seems to just be an expression of speach. Though the force must have some sort of sentience or will if it 'speaks' to people from time to time.
     
  5. JaySkywalker01

    JaySkywalker01 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 25, 2005
    It offended you? Hey man, it's just a fictional book....
     
  6. Darth_Angle

    Darth_Angle Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 13, 2006
    In the GFFA the Force fills to some extent the "God" role so it doesn't really surprise me. I am interested in why you found it slightly offensive though.
     
  7. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    I don't know if it's really asking the Force to forgive you so much as it's just something to say.
     
  8. Carnage04

    Carnage04 Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 8, 2005


    Yeah, I wouldn't take it too seriously. The authors come up with a lot of unique phrases for the characters to say. When one yells "Sithspit!" There usually is not a Sith Spitting at him. It sounds enough like soemthing we say today in crisis situations so it is useable. ;)

    Carnage
     
  9. sohaibiawan

    sohaibiawan Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 8, 2004
    The reason I was offended is that one of the things I really like about Star Wars and the fiction related to it, is that if does not, even in a fictional sense, conflict with my own religious beliefs. In my religious understanding, even fictional references to a Creator are to be handled with the utmost delicacy...remaining within the fine lines of our beliefs. I am Muslim, and our understanding of God and respect for Him is always taken into consideration. George Lucas himself stated that the Force was not God.

    I always had a problem with the Narnia books too because Aslan was a "represenation", according to C.S. Lewis, of the Creator...which for Muslims is highly offensive and patently against our teachings.

    From what I have read, while some believe the Force to be sentient, I always viewed it as an energy/force that was the template for the way reality should be in the Star Wars universe. Sentience and looking for forgiveness was never mentioned previously by any other character (in my recollection).

     
  10. JaySkywalker01

    JaySkywalker01 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2005

    So then are you offended anytime SW makes a reference to "the Will of the Force" or the Force "guiding one's decision"?

    Edit: The Force isn't exactly a monotheistic deity, but it is still the best equivalent to God within the SW universe. Also, C.S. Lewis intentionally meant for his books to contain Christian imagery and symbology because his faith allowed it, so what's the problem there if his own faith allows it?

    I do admire your devotion to your ideals.
     
  11. sohaibiawan

    sohaibiawan Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 8, 2004
    Thanks Jay...maybe its just me, but I like to be passionate (which I am about Star Wars) with things that are in line with my ideals. While I most certainly respect other rights with respect to their beliefs and understandings, true love often only comes when there is no discord between ideals and beliefs.

    Comparisons to God in any fashion, for Muslims, are blasphemous...fictional or not...

    As I stated earlier, I have always envisioned the "Will of the Force" as a manifestation of the way reality should be...rather than the specific desires of an entity.
     
  12. JaySkywalker01

    JaySkywalker01 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 25, 2005
    Once again, I admire your devotion.

    But the fact is, SW-nor the real world-is not bound by the laws of the Muslim faith, and never have been.

    There's nothing wrong with having your own beliefs, but it's too much to ask for everyone to abide by rules they don't personally feel convicted by.
     
  13. sohaibiawan

    sohaibiawan Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 8, 2004
    True Jay...but I guess my real question, is the idea of the Force being looked at as an entity one is seeking forgiveness from really the dominant view in the Star Wars universe? I have read at least 35 novels (New Jedi Order, etc.)...and I don't remember ever seeing a Jedi say what Ben stated or look at the force that way...perhaps it was simply a slip of the tongue on his part or just a phrase without real meaning...
     
  14. JaySkywalker01

    JaySkywalker01 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Could be!

    Personally, I don't view the Force as a sentient being. Maybe someone else does and has reason to? Anyone?
     
  15. Obi-Wan21

    Obi-Wan21 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2002
    That line can take the same basic meaning as when Obi-Wan (Or any Jedi) states: "By The Force."

    The Force is their ideal, and lead to take different constructs of the same basis, but that doesn't mean the Force is a 'God'. The Force is connected through midicholrians (sp?), a scientific fact of the SW Universe.

    Saying "Force Forgive Me" doesn't necessarily mean Ben is literally asking the Force to forgive him in the "God forgive me" way. He has sinned against nature, against life, of which the Force IS. Therefore the forgiveness is like you'd ask a person to forgive, but he's stating it more in the sense of: "What I have I done?"

    Instead of the literal idea of the Force actually being able to forgive. It's not a God, it can't do that. The Jedi look to the Force to guide them on their path, they meditate to the Force, the Force is all life, so what Ben did was only natural. And a natural part of Star Wars.
     
  16. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 11, 2005
    The Force seems to be interpreted in two ways: Either it is
    something that occurs naturally, is created by life, or either
    it is something that is supernatural - but not necessarily
    sentient in any normal way we understand it - and creates life.
    I would say that the first seems to be more widespread in SW
    galaxy but that the latter seems to get most support from
    those that study the Force philosophically.
     
  17. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I understand your point but I think George has actually stated there's no God in Star Wars because the Force is God.

    He states the Force is meant to be the AUDIENCES of idea of God.

    Whether its Allah or another intepretation, the Force is the divine.
     
  18. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    With some nervousness, I'm going to jump in here now...

    I think that we need to move away from the exact words Ben says, to the meaning he's trying to express.

    The standard Jedi perception of the Force contains no concept of atonement - divine forgiveness of human fallibility; but Ben recognizes the need for such a process, after what he'd just done, and he expresses that recognition with the only vocabulary he can use...

    It's an imperfect vocabulary, of course, but that relates well, I think, to the concept of human fallibility in the first place - and even imperfect, the underlying meaning does seem clear

    Does that work for everyone...?

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  19. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Actually, the Force always HAS been the god-like entity of the GFFA. Hence, "there is no death, there is only the Force."

    Which is why I find much of Brin's complaints about the ending of ROTJ nonsensical; the only redemption Darth Vader needed to find was within the Force, not within society.
     
  20. JaySkywalker01

    JaySkywalker01 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 25, 2005
  21. Rouge77

    Rouge77 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 11, 2005
    David Brin, the author.

    http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html
     
  22. Darth_Angle

    Darth_Angle Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 13, 2006
    The Force I find is a very spiritual thing and for me fits the concept better than any real religions.
    For me in SW it makes perfect sense for the character to use that phrase because in the GFFA it's the closest thing to God.
    In the NJO the YV were always calling upon their Gods which is pretty much the same thing.
     
  23. sohaibiawan

    sohaibiawan Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 8, 2004
    I tend to lean towards what Obiwan21 and Thrawn McEwok have stated about the force...it's interesting, in Islam, on the Day of Judgment, all created things of the world will testify for and against human beings...so for example, the earth will testify against the human being with respect to how it was treated or mistreated (say trash and pollution)...I feel this understanding could apply to Ben's comment.
     
  24. Darth_Angle

    Darth_Angle Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 13, 2006
    The good thing about the Force is it can been seen as different things by different people. For me the line of dialogue didn't bother me it was in keeping as what I see the Force to be.
     
  25. quad_gun_jinn

    quad_gun_jinn Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2002
    I don't see how its any different from "May the Force be with you". Cos Catholics at mass say "May the Lord be with you"
     
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