"Force forgive me"...why did Ben ask the Force for forgiveness?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sohaibiawan, Oct 7, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 4
    Don't worry, OP. Mara will tell him it's a good and noble thing to kill the innocent. She did for years. I think she secretly wants Ben to be bad, because it's a situation she can relate to. When people become parents, lots of their own childhood insecurities and issues come to the fore. Mara seems content to have her very young son hurt others, to look like her, be her replica. She gets steamed if anyone suggests she's not doing enough to curb her bratling.
  2. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Exactly.
  3. Darth_Angle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 3
    Or maybe Shmi's "virgin birth".
  4. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Which makes me wonder...

    Do the Skywalker/Solos actually *know* that they're descended directly from the Force now?

    Luke goes on about his father's special destiny but when did he learn the full details about that?

  5. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    Well, the Force takes the role of a deity for some people in the Star Wars 'verse (followers of the living force ideal). Perhaps Ben follows that vein of thinking. Ig Ben wants to ask forgiveness from the Force, why the hell shouldn't he?
  6. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    I think that you can stay true to your religious beliefs and be into Star Wars even if the force is considered to be "Godlike" in nature. You know in your own heart that the God you worship is REAL. Everyone (Well....everyone that wouldn't be labeled "Insane") knows that the force is NOT real. What is real in Star Wars is the general idea of Good and Evil that is probably similar to your own beliefs.

    Another point is that nobody in the Star Wars universe really has a concrete understanding of what the force is. See the RoTS novelizations passage about Obi-Wan saying that the Jedi understand the will of the force as someone who doesn't know about gravity understands it is the will of a river to flow down a mountain. Perhaps in the Star Wars universe you could look at it as your God having given these people tremendous gifts, but they are so foolish as to not even understand from whence they came. Perhaps you can pity Jedi for not yet having obtained knowledge of the being that ultimately created the galaxy and the force. ;)

    All in All, I think you should not let it bother you too much. As long as you don't start marking your religion as "Jedi" on cencus records and start believing in the force yourself, your God will not fault you.

    Carnage
  7. Darth_Angle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 3
    Well I don't believe in the Force but a lot of what it represents is what I believe in spiritually. Oh I did mark "Jedi" on the census as well.

    Guess it's the old jacket with the buckles on the back for me then.[face_laugh]
  8. sohaibiawan Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    What census are you all referring to? Interesting...
  9. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    In 2001 in a bunch of the English speaking countries a ton of people listed their religion as beiing Jedi. There is more on it Here.
  10. Darth_Angle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 3
    Two guys in my home town did events to promote the Jedi religion. Most of these took place in pubs and ended up in drunken discussions about SW.

  11. NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 4
    Another point is that nobody in the Star Wars universe really has a concrete understanding of what the force is. See the RoTS novelizations passage about Obi-Wan saying that the Jedi understand the will of the force as someone who doesn't know about gravity understands it is the will of a river to flow down a mountain. Perhaps in the Star Wars universe you could look at it as your God having given these people tremendous gifts, but they are so foolish as to not even understand from whence they came. Perhaps you can pity Jedi for not yet having obtained knowledge of the being that ultimately created the galaxy and the force.


    Well, what is love? Isn't this a gift? Everyone loves, but you can't define how or where a big piece of meat has such notions. We do though.

    As for the Force, it's like any other talent. It's baffling. Like why does one set of vocal cords produce such incredible sounds and another makes you want to plug your ears? Who knows? One doesn't question WHY he has a gift, he's simply happy that he does. Not all force users are destined to become Jedi. But that doesn't mean that they can't lead a greatly productive life. For a force user to answer what the force is, is the same as answering the meaning of ife itself. And we don't know that anymore than the next person.
  12. Darth_Angle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 3
    I'm not sure spirituality and religious undertones are something you can ignore in Star Wars. For me it's part of the base of the story.
    The main character of the movies Anakin/Vader starts of with the whole "virgin birth" lives with the tag of "the chosen one" and finishes of as a "fallen angel" before being redeemed to the light.
  13. wild_karrde Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 7
    He said it because "frak" is already owned by another franchise.
  14. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    Ha, I'd probably have written it in also. I applaud you guys for the amusing gesture. However, there are most certainly nutcases out there that actually think the Force IS real.

    Mostly a practical joke - there are those among us that don't necessarily feel that any of the organized religions suit them properly. Religion is funny - in some circles saying that you believe in God and follow X religion will get you laughed and and thought of as a fool. Turn around, go to another circle and you will be criticized for being a bad person for not believing as others believe. Because of that, you have things like the "Jedi Census Phenomenon". 80% of the people did it to be lighthearted and silly because they really didn't know what else to put. 10% put it down to mock organized religion, 4% probably put it down because it is a "Philosophy" that most closely matches their ideals, and 1% are probably crazy enough to think the force is real. ;) It takes all kinds.

    Carnage
  15. quad_gun_jinn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 4
    Very prominant in the Aussie one
  16. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    The Force is portrayed as a deity, some mystical essence that actually decides what your destiny will be. I find the concept hilariously absurd, and if that's not the case, well, that's how it's been presented.

    I think the Force doesn't care what you think. It's a tool, a well, that you can bucket water from. The good and bad within you makes perfect pragmatic and realisitic sense. But if you were to approach it from a night side aspect, that would mean it's alive and actually sentient to an extent---which is feasibly impossible.

    There's one way to explain this.

    Radical way.

    Each Force is different . . .

    The cells within your personal body will you along differently, to that of a tree or another person. It's possible, and in the context, interlinked elctromagnetic fields inbetween one Force concentration to another---a rock to a body to Jabba's intestinal gasses. Think about it. It takes no sides. If you use it better---and better is a very nexus word here---it helps you win a fight. Doesn't matter if you're Sauron or Sith, thought lets point out you don't say sauce the silly way you say Sauron, do you? Sawron for me.

    Unlikely, but not entirely impossible. [face_thinking]

    I don't mind the official line saying the Force oversees all, has a will, and decides your path. But I must have it explained in books, and it hasn't been done descriptively without the brevity of "it just is."
  17. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 9, 2000
    star 6
    *nods thoughtfully*

    That's an impressive post, Ex. Interesting thoughts. I'm not saying I agree entirely, but I like the way you're putting this...

    Kudos.

    - The Imperial Ewok
  18. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    It's the best explanation for why the Force acts differently to different people, and how it "can" be "overseeing" to you, if you segregate it as a vast collection of individual quasientities, and allow that it dominatrixes you in different ways.

    Oh gosh, I'm talking like Alastair Reynolds! This is what 1400 consecutive pages does to you . . .
  19. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    That's more along the lines of how I think of it... a collective will of all life, not a singular God or a deity in the western sense, but more the will of multiple beings made whole.

    I think part of the problem is the way Lucas first described it in the films was a more far eastern approach which western cultures often find harder to understand. It's easy to think "God = Good. Devil = Bad" as its a simple equation to get your head around, which is an attitude that has shined through some authors writing moreso than others. Not that that isn't understandable, any author will base their own personal interpretation of the Force on their own cultural experience, so its inevitable for them to portray it in certain ways.

    I've always tended to think of it more like the kind of life force portrayed in a lot of the video game RPGs that come out of Japan. The Final Fantasy series comes to mind, the gaia philosophy in particular, as it reflects the Force quite well. If you've played FF7 you'll understand the idea of the planet itself having a 'will' of sorts, but of that will being made up of the life force of all the people on it, so its got a will, but its not the result of a single God-figure, but the result of the collective will of all life. Likewise, that doesn't mean the individual life forces that make up the collective life force, or gaia, don't have their own independence. You see that in how the Aeris character can interact as a ghost personally, despite simultaneously being part of the collective life force of the planet- an idea that contrasts very nicely with the idea of Jedi Force ghosts and becoming one with the Force while still retaining your identity after death.

    With all that in mind, saying "Force forgive me" need not infer any reference to a God. It can, but it doesn't have to, and, as we're talking about the Force here, clearly the intention is that it isn't. The Force may not be "a God" but it is still the spiritual and guiding force of the galaxy, at least in the Jedi's eyes, so its perfectly reasonable for them to feel bad given they believe in following its will not going against it. If you consider that the Living Force isn't a person, it isn't a God, nor is it a pantheon of Gods, its a collective of ALL life, ALL living creatures, then all Ben is really saying is "Everyone forgive me", as thats what the Force is, its not a God, its everyone.
  20. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Indeed.:p

    As I see it though, the Jedi are barking up the wrong tree, to a certain extent, in their attempts at defining what the Force is. There's the Unifying Force and the Living Force, according to them, with the former being the source of revelation into the Will of the Force, while the latter is more what the Jedi draw on for their powers.

    Now, the Force, as we're first introduced to it by Obi-Wan Kenobi, is "an energy field, created by all living things", that "binds the universe together". It's also said that life cannot exist without the Force, and Ben's statement in ANH could be read as implying as much.

    However, isn't this something of a contradiction in terms? If life cannot exist without the Force, but the Force is in its turn created by life, how could the the Force, or life for that matter, exist at all, if each is entirely dependant on the other for its continued existence?

    The answer, as I see it, is that what the Jedi call the Unifying Force is God, the mystical entity responsible for the creation of life, the Force and everything in the universe, who occasionally intervenes in the affairs of the universe with those subtle nudges that send the heroes marching off time and again to save the galaxy from annihilation, while the Living Force is exactly what Obi-Wan describes to Luke; an (electro-magnetic?) energy field created by organic life-forms that certain beings, through the presence of higher concentrations of medichlorians in their bodies, can manipulate to their own ends.

    Make sense?
  21. Sn4tcH Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2004
    star 4
    And let's not forget, the Force was created after Lucas picked and chose from the various religions all over the world. In this sense the Force as we see it on film is kind of like "Religions Greatest Hits".

    Edit: The Force is respected like a god, but acts like karma. The Jedi act like crusading knights and buddhist monks. The Sith look like your average "devil worshiper" that one sees when the thought comes to mind.
  22. Darth_Angle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 3
    I am not a fan of Earth's religions for reason I will not go into here.

    I am a spiritual person though and a lot of the descriptions of the Force on these pages fit in with what I believe. I believe in a sort of "Universal Consciencness" and the Universes prompts certain people at times they need it, it bestows people certain gifts when they are needed.
    I also believe that this "Universal Conscienceness" is part of the fabric of the Universe which couldn't exist without it.

    When Ben asks the Force to forgiveness the way I saw it was he was almost asking the Universe to forgive him.

    And even though I put Jedi on the census I promise I'm not a nut-job.

    EDIT- Spelling
  23. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    You keep saying that and saying that.

    Methinks thou doth protest too much.:p
  24. Darth_Angle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2006
    star 3
    Just don't ask my wife. ;)
  25. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Jediism... peh. When are people going to get together so we can make Sith an official religion? :p

    Think about it, you could be a recognised Lord, a free pass to peerage [face_laugh]
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.