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Force Ghosts and their relationship to the force

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by T-R-, Feb 1, 2007.

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  1. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2003
    After a discussion in the PT boards with darth-sinister that was getting off-topic I wanted to see what other people thought.

    Are force ghosts:

    A.) the idividual's identity (similar to a soul/spirit/ghost) manifested from the afterlife (similar to a ghost or vision/apparition) that retains its knowledge

    or

    B.) are they the Force itself. Knowing everything the force knows
     
  2. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2004
  3. MN_JEDI

    MN_JEDI Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 22, 2003
    Me too, kind of both. I agree with both choices in a way. I think that you retain your identity while joining the force. You become a part of it and can take form as a ghost/spirit when needed. I don't necessarily mean you become "the Force" itself, but still a part of it, existing in it's realm, dimension, whatever. I do believe that such an existence would be quite enlightening as far as knowledge is concerned. So I guess I agree with A and Half of B.
     
  4. Darth-Erevos

    Darth-Erevos Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2006

    I always thought of it as a combination of both. A person retains his personality and identity but now his "body", is the force. His manifestation in the universe isnt his physical body with the limitations of his 5 senses and his brain, but the force itself.
     
  5. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    I'm not sure that "Force Ghosts" know everything. It strikes me as untrue to say that they know what the Force knows. I believe that that only happens when those souls pass over. You only have to listen to how Obi Wan talks to Luke in ROTJ to realise those people are still limited by their personality. Obi Wan doesn't make a case for Anakin. The Force would have more compassion than that. Compassion for all things.
     
  6. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    Yup.

    Force ghosts aren't all seeing. The greater power they have is the ability to have an influence upon the living world and defying oblivion.

    Upon death, every living things become one with the force. They "transform into the force" as Yoda would say. But Jedi are also able to retain their idenity and return from the netherworld of the force - hence my answer "both".
     
  7. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    I agree. Force ghosts are certainly limited, both in terms of their knowlage and how much they can interfere with events in mortal coil. Qui-Gon tried to stop Anakin from slaughtering the Tuskens and failed and I believe this is actually a plot point, because in Empire, Obi-Wan tells Luke that he can't interfere if Luke decides to face Vader. So it seems the spirits can guide, but they CAN'T actually change or interfere with a persons choices.
    The other issue is that by ROTS, clearly Yoda has been conversing with Qui-Gon, yet Qui-Gon didn't tell him that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. I actually think Qui-Gon didn't know, but even if he did know, he wouldn't have been able to tell Yoda, because that would have been interfering with the natural course of events, even if it would have meant Sidious never took over the galaxy.

    So, I would say the answer is more A. than B.
     
  8. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    Has anyone ever wondered where this "netherworld of the Force" is, what it's like, etc.?

    I figured it out: Hyperspace.
     
  9. skgai1

    skgai1 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2005
    I have also wondered what the netherworld would be like. The way they speak about it it sounds like you can have feelings and are "alive" in this other universe. That would make it seem like heaven. But others times they talk about it like its a realm of nothingness and you enter oblivion. There seems to be contradictions abound. I'll try and come up with specific examples soon.
     
  10. Ree

    Ree Jedi Master star 5

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    Jan 25, 2005
    I agree I think its both. I think as they die they let the Froce surge through them, so that their spirit is joined wit hthe Force. And since it surrounds everyone and doesn't die, neither does the spirit.
     
  11. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    The netherworld is whatever you want it to be - it's whatever you think it is.

    Personally, I think it is the force. All life creates the force. When you live you add to that energy. When you die you become part of that energy. How that feels, what that existance is like - who knows? I wouldn't dare presume.
     
  12. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Exactly.

    We're getting into the metaphysical here.

    I'm not sure even The Flannelled One can tell us much of anything about that.
     
  13. OBIWAN-JR

    OBIWAN-JR Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2002
    The Force is everything.
    And everything is the Force.

    When Kenobi 'transforms into the Force', or indeed, unlearns what he has learned and 'knows' [again] that he is a luminous being - a divided part of the whole that is the Force - I believe he knows all.

    He is outside the realm of space and time and is a part of the infinite eternal. And therefore he must know everything, because EVERYTHING is happening here and now outside the field of time.

    His comments to Luke are what they are merely because Luke CANNOT be told what he must do. He must find his own path through his own FREE will.

    Of course, Luke's decision to listen to the Will of the Force in the end, is made exactly through his own free choice to do so.

    Kenobi is the one who tells Luke to trust his INSTINCTS.
    To do what he FEELS is right.

    In other words, to listen to his inner voice.

    His Soul. The Force.
    One and the same.


    -JR :)
     
  14. OBIWAN-JR

    OBIWAN-JR Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2002
    >>>> So it seems the spirits can guide, but they CAN'T actually change or interfere with a persons choices.

    Right, G.
    Because they are a part of the Force.
    And whilst the Force has a Will, it will not force that Will upon the [it]self.

    If you look at the story of the Garden.
    Adam and Eve leave the Garden because they disobey.
    But that is exactly what God wants.
    Because He wants to experience Himself through [wo]man.
    He gives [wo]man free will to make the CHOICE to come back to Him.
    He will never take away that free will to do so.
    But He will try to communicate through signs, which are read through feelings and instinct, that the way back to the Garden is through Him.

    If the Force is God in the GFFA, then the Force will not take away choice.
    But it can, and will, try to communicate.

    So as Anakin makes his choice to turn away from the light and towards the dark side [the Tusken slaughter], so Padme's FEELINGS of love for him become stronger, resulting in the twins being born.

    And it is one of those offspring that, through his example of free will, shows Anakin that the way back home [back to Love] is through listening to the Will of the Force.....


    -JR :)


     
  15. skgai1

    skgai1 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 1, 2005
    Supremely spoken.
     
  16. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Very eloquent, OBIWAN-JR.

    I still have problems with this premise at present.

    To give an example, Obi Wan tells Luke to "bury his feelings" because "they might be made to serve the Emperor". It seems that Obi Wan is still either a) way off base concerning the Dark Side or b) baiting Luke into almost failing, by deliberately giving him bad advice, so that he may ultimately triumph.
     
  17. Jamiebacca

    Jamiebacca Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 17, 2003
    They aren't 'the force', they're just Jedi Ghosts. In Star Wars land, the be able to appear conciously and speak to others as a ghost, you need to be strong in the force.

    That's all folks!
     
  18. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Well... they're certainly not "the Force".

    But they might have touched the Force before returning.

    That's what's up for debate.

    I'd still say that Yoda and Obi Wan don't feel the Force until the end of the saga. It is my belief that they only join with the Force once the prophecy is complete. Before that, they have passed into some intermediary domain -- a hiding place, if you will. This syncs up with Yoda's line in ROTS: "Until the time is right, disappear we will". The inverse of this line then becomes: "When the time isn't right, remain we will." They only join when it is time to join. And it doesn't become time until the Force is balanced and Anakin appears one last time, refreshed and brand new (the same, but different), before joining the Force forever.
     
  19. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000




    It's a duology: You're both the Force (see first post) and not (see second.)

     
  20. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    Nope. He is warning Luke that if the Sith find out about his fears then they will sue them against him. Just like what Vader did with the knowledge of Leia. he used it against Luke - as Kenobi warned.
     
  21. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    "Bury" is a terrible verb to use. Obi Wan effectively tells Luke to HIDE his feelings. To suppress them. And if you know anything about psychology, you'll know that that has terrible consequences. It's also exactly how the Dark Side in Star Wars works. The deeper one pushes their feelings, the more forcefully they'll spring to the surface later. One only has to look at Luke's reaction to Vader's taunt for proof.
     
  22. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    Its a very different situation to that though. These arent bad feelings Luke has that Obi Wan is trying to tell him to surpress. They are positive feelings that do him credit - but its knowledge that the Sith will use against him.

    Its very much like what happens in the Harry Potter series. Harry is taught by Snape how to hide his thoughts so the baddies cant use them against him.

    Its the same with Luke. He has to hide the fact that he loves his friends and has a sister else the Sith will use that against him.
     
  23. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    The Sith use his feelings against him, yes. And that is because Luke buried them. If he'd dealt with them properly, the Sith would have had nothing to work with. As with Anakin. I hold that it's terrible advice.
     
  24. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

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    Dec 31, 2004
    So lets imagine Luke goes into the trone room with his feelings and thoughts on display. Vader and Sidious would use them against him immeidately and he would react in the same way. Burying his feelings deep down wasnt what went wrong with Luke. It was revealing them to Vader.

    As Vader says - "your thoughts betray you". Luke had given up his thoughts of Leia and not only does that give the Sith leverage against him, but it gives away important secrets.

    You have to protect yourself against the bad guys. You have to keep your thoughts hidden. Its not anything negative Luke has to deal with. Its something that does him credit. But he just must keep them hidden from the Sith, just as Harry Potter has to keep his thoughts hidden from Lord Voldermort.

     
  25. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    I see a difference between not broadcasting one's feelings and burying them.

    I think "bury" has certain connotations and was poor word choice -- and hence, poor advice -- on Kenobi's part.

    Fundamentally, he did tell Luke the correct thing, from a certain point of view. But he failed to do so with the kind of precision and insight you'd expect from an avatar of the Force.
     
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