Lit Force ghosts in the EU

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Brenapp, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. Brenapp Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2012
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    A lot of us are probably aware by now that in the screenplay for Revenge of the Sith (and in the novelisation and comic book adaptation), the spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn informs Yoda that he learned the secret of preserving his consciousness in the Force from a Shaman of the Whills, and also adds that this is something that those consumed by the dark side can never learn. It is assumed that Qui-Gon then goes on to teach this ability to both Yoda and Obi-Wan in the years between ROTS and ANH. But things become much more problematic when one takes the Expanded Universe into account, as a great many EU stories have shown other Jedi, sometimes long before Qui-Gon, disappearing into the Force upon the death of their physical body (Arca Jeth and Ulic Qel-Droma in Tales of the Jedi, for example). Not only that, but the EU has also shown how a great many Sith have appeared as spirits in the physical universe after their bodies' demise, such as Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun (And in Nadd's case, his ghost was able to appear anywhere in the galaxy). So much for dark siders being unable to cheat death, eh?

    There's also the Jedi ghost that haunts the library on Nespiss VIII in the Galaxy of Fear book Ghost of the Jedi. And during her funeral, the body of Mara Jade Skywalker vanishes into the Force, and she later comes back as a Force ghost, despite the fact she never received any special incite from any shaman of the Whills! How do we go about resolving these conundrums?
  2. Maxim Kammerer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2012
    We also saw a lot force ghosts in Swtor.
  3. GrandMasterKatarn Force Ghost

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    Feb 8, 2008
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    Qu Rahn in the Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight game was a Force ghost
  4. Manisphere Force Ghost

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    [IMG]
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  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Options:

    The Whills learned it from the Jedi of the old order- who then lost it at some point.

    Luke learned it off Obi-Wan or Yoda, and Mara learned it off Luke.

    Qui-Gon has been teaching every Jedi who dies, the moment they die- the way Obi-Wan does to Anakin in The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader
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  6. Brenapp Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2012
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    I don't know if I really like the idea that becoming a Force ghost after death is something you can "learn" - I'd much prefer it if it was more mysterious than that, something that happens to some Force-sensitive beings, but not all.

    And how do we explain the existence of Sith ghosts?
  7. Darth Myon Jedi Knight

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    Nov 9, 2012
    Most of those "Sith Goasts" as I recall are all connected to a physical item, ie Holocron or Yavin Temples.
  8. Brenapp Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2012
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    Well, Freedon Nadd's spirit was able to appear in various locations. How was it able to do that if it was connected to one object in one place?
  9. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    Sith ghosts are easiest understood by recognising that the physical anima is not the spirit. "Death" in the spiritual sense means returning to the Force. Your body can rot all it likes, but until your spirit rejoins the whole, you aren't "dead". Sith, in that sense, aren't cheating death, just postponing it, cowards forever running away, afraid to face it.

    Or, as a parallel, they're more like traditional ghosts, who are people hanging around with unfinished business, not wanting to move on up to Heaven, whereas Jedi ghosts have already been there, got the t-shirt, and returned from the netherworld.

    As for Qui-Gon discovering it -- I can discover lots of things, but it doesn't mean they haven't previously been discovered by someone else in the past.

    Note that this post does not endorse the stupidity of the Jedi Academy Training Manual or the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, both of which propose stupid ideas about Jedi ghosts being selfish and in denial of the Force's will. :rolleyes:
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Nov 28, 2012
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  10. Brenapp Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2012
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    What could have caused the Jedi to lose this ability then? In the Tales of the Jedi/Old Republic era (c. 5,000 - 1,000 BBY), it seemed like it was pretty much taken for granted that the soul of a Force-sensitive being would live on and have limited interaction with the world of the living.
    Last edited by Brenapp, Nov 28, 2012
  11. Brenapp Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2012
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    Here's an idea: In ancient times, it was the Whills who bestowed upon those Force-sensitives they deemed worthy the power to return as Force ghosts. Over time, as the Jedi grew more and more complacent and mired in galactic politics, and their relationship with the Force dwindled, fewer and fewer Jedi were chosen for this honor. When they chose Qui-Gon, they went a bit further than before - they actually taught him how to preserve the souls of dying Jedi himself, and he went on to give this power to Obi-Wan and Yoda. What do you reckon?
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  12. Brenapp Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2012
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    So, any theories as to how some Sith ghosts, such as Freedon Nadd, have been able to go wherever they want in the universe?
  13. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
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    It's safe to assume that njo era Jedi learned it from Luke, who learned it from Kenobi and Yoda.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    At least one Dark Times era Jedi (An'ya Kuro AKA The Dark Woman) shows the ability in the short comic Extinction. While it's early Star Wars Tales, it seems to be canon- at least, there's no "Ambiguously canon" note for events from it on Wookieepedia.

    Maybe she learned it from the Whills independantly, or from Qui-Gon?
  15. Brenapp Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2012
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    Either would seem reasonable to me.
  16. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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  17. _Catherine_ Chosen One

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    Vader killing the Dark Woman is canon, the specific events shown in the comic are not. Vader had never seen a Jedi disappear before Obi-Wan.
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  18. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    It makes me chuckle a bit that the pre-prequel EU ran with "all Jedi disappear because Yoda and Ben did" but completely ignored that Darth Vader -- touted as the biggest, baddest and meanest Jedi killer of all time -- was clearly taken aback by what happened when he took down Obi-Wan.

    That being said, I'd be fine with the Dark Woman confrontation going down exactly as it did in the comic (because it's pretty cool), with Vader's toe-robe-prodding on the Death Star being more of a "WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING ALL OF A SUDDEN?" kind of deal.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Nov 30, 2012
  19. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    I always just assumed he wasn't surprised that the Dark Woman had done something weird. She, like, did stuff like that, all the time. It'd have been weird had something weird not happened. :p

    It was only when he saw Obi-Wan do it that it clicked: "Wait... wtk is going on?"

    He probably just shrugged when An'ya vanished and didn't think much about it. "Dark Woman doing weird stuff? *shrug* Nothing new."
  20. Esg Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    The TOR Guide book explained Jedi Force Ghosts use Force Ghosts to guide people but also prefer to let them figure stuff out on their own
    Last edited by Esg, Nov 30, 2012
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    The Jedi Academy Training Manual, from what I've seen, is basically officially licensed trolling.
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  22. Darth_Kevin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 5
    I think the TOTJ era ghosts can be explained that it was a better known capability that was taught. However, over the 4000+ years somehow the ability was either forgotten or lost. The Shaman of the Whills simply re-discovered it.

    I believe in most cases for Sith their "soul" was attached, imprisoned or linked to an object, thus it is not exactly the same and probably something different.
  23. Havac Former Moderator

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    Sep 29, 2005
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    That's what Vader does every time he kills a disappearing Jedi. He just has to make sure they're not Crokes.
  24. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

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    True, they did run with it... but I think it's important to delve into the history here. When that scene was written and shot, it appears Vader had never become a true Jedi Knight, and had quit his training early (as Ben says). So perhaps the disappearing trick was something that happened only to Knights or Masters, and he never got to that stage. Alternatively, perhaps Vader (knowing Ben was tricky) was simply making sure Kenobi wasn't playing some other trick on him and was making sure he really wasn't there. ESB is pretty consistent with ANH's "Vader the quitter," despite that retconning Vader into Luke's father means that he must have been a "knight" as per Ben in ANH; Yoda still says to Luke, "if you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did...", implying that Vader still quit his Jedi tutelage before reaching 'enlightenment' (to use a probably inaccurate word).

    Also, even during some of the shooting of ANH, Ben didn't die and was alive through the end of the movie. So the idea of him disappearing and becoming an undead voice might have been a less-than-thought-through concept at first. In Leigh Brackett's draft of ESB, through the various versions of ROTJ, the definitions and capabilities of the "ghosts" vary quite a bit. I don't think it was a settled concept throughout the OT era at all. So when the EU took that concept - that Jedi simply fade away - and ran with it, it might well have been what was really intended by the filmmakers at that point. The idea of it being learned, and learned only by some, might be a later addition. It's hard to tell.
  25. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Was there any reason Qui-Gon didn't appear in Revenge of the Sith. It would have been nice to see him explaining the whole "force ghost" thing to Yoda...