Discussion Force Ghosts in VII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by RyanForder, Mar 9, 2014.

?

Which ones do you want to see?

Obi-Wan Kenobi 23 vote(s) 19.7%
Yoda 29 vote(s) 24.8%
Anakin Skywalker 29 vote(s) 24.8%
Qui-Gon Jinn 7 vote(s) 6.0%
Palpatine 13 vote(s) 11.1%
Other (Please state) 5 vote(s) 4.3%
None 6 vote(s) 5.1%
Not bothered 5 vote(s) 4.3%
  1. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    Qui-Gon could very likely be the Shaman of the Whills. A guide to Yoda, who had been tasked with training the new hope. So even if Qui-Gon was Yoda's master, Yoda was 'chosen' for a particular path or charge.
    Last edited by Immortiss, Apr 13, 2014
  2. thejeditraitor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    no he's not the shaman.

    "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."
    Qui-Gon Jinn to Yoda[src]

    One of their Shamans was known to have discovered the secret of eternal consciousness and later, Qui-Gon Jinn learned the secret, allowing him to interact with the living after his death.[1][2]
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, Apr 13, 2014
  3. Darth Punk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2013
    star 4
    a) luke rejected the ghosts, and over the last 30 years the solitude has driven them insane (it's not as thought they can go into standby mode)
    b) as luke rejected them, they've gone off to find other force sensitives to train
    c) luke's maintained contact with them, and has been training with them full on for 30 years, in which case he should be one of the all-time best jedi
    d) they won't leave luke alone, and he's gone insane
    e) they've been working with leia, and she turns out to be the badass jedi of the two

    that's all for now...
    Last edited by Darth Punk, Apr 14, 2014
    Immortiss likes this.
  4. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3
    I really hope the sequels are not a nostalgia trip, but Star Wars fans went a long, long time with Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke as the only Jedi. (When/who was the next official Jedi anyway? Joruus C'Baoth?) It would be very cool to see the original three on screen together one more time, even if there's no dialogue or it's just for a moment.

    But it does seem like, realistically, Yoda is the one we should expect. Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Qui-Gon all have serious issues with highly-paid actors, dead actors, actors being wrong/mismatched ages. Fixing up their appearances to make any sense of things could be expensive and unnatural (cf. CLU in Tron: Legacy) and would still not satisfy many. Yoda is the safe choice.
    Immortiss likes this.
  5. Immortiss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2013
    star 4
    f) there's a mysterious problem with the Force and contact with them is like a bad holotransmission (it keeps going in and out until there is no more contact).[face_devil]
  6. DanielUK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Maybe Yoda could appear in the first act, to warn Luke of an unknown darkness growing in the galaxy. But as I said earlier in this thread (think it was this one?), I don't want them randomly appearing every five minutes.
  7. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    I agree with so much of this.

    And yet, within the pages of the novelization of Episode III, we are witness to an exchange between Master Yoda and the spirit of Qui-Gon Jinn, which reads, in part:

    Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."

    He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect. The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master. "Your apprentice, I gratefully become."

    Now I'm not offering this a s proof that Qui-Gon somehow "outranks" Master Yoda, but it is suggestive of a very fluid, dynamic relationship between the two, I think.


    Now, something else from this conversation to consider, as relates to Force ghosts in the ST (forgive me if this was already mentioned, it's been awhile since I read the entirety of this thread):

    Yoda: "An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."

    Jinn: "And you will have time to learn it."

    Yoda: "Infinite knowledge..." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time, does that require."

    Jinn: "With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps, in time, even your physical self."

    Yoda did not move. "Eternal life..."

    What does this tell us? Well, for one, I think it shows that according to George Lucas' personally approved ROTS novelization (and unlike earlier EU depictions), Force-ghosting is meant to be "forever."

    The line "Perhaps, in time, even your physical self," though?

    Does this mean a potential return to the corporeal world for Yoda, Anakin or Obi-Wan? I don't think I'd want to see that happen, necessarily, but I suppose this may open the door.

    But what I am intrigued by is something which I know I've seen suggested here on this forum before. Specifically, the thought that maybe Luke Skywalker somehow transcends death completely and, through the Force, unlocks the secret to physical immortality (becoming "The Skywalker").

    As I said, I know this idea is not new. But although I liked the idea, it seemed to me little more than a wish without a leg to stand on before I re-read the discussion between Qui-Gon and Yoda. Now I'm not so sure.
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Apr 15, 2014
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Disappointed that I couldn't vote for more than one, would like to have Plagueis and Qui Gon at opposite ends of the same spectrum.

    As it is, I settled on "Other"... if only because we've seen / heard Kenobi, Yoda, and Jinn... now I want to see a Sith Ghost.
  9. purplerain Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2013
    star 4
    I love this idea. I myself have wondered if the idea of "The Skywalker" will be reused.
    I too wonder whether or not Plagueis would have a Jedi counterpart/opposite.
    Last edited by purplerain, Apr 15, 2014
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  10. Jair Crawford Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    I'd like to see all of them... that is Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin.

    But I don't wanna see Palpatine. I got nothing against his character (he and Ian McDiarmid were spectacularly brilliant), but, as has been expressed by many, I feel his return (even in ghost form) would undermine the powerful ending of ROTJ.
  11. DV75 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2001
    star 3
    I would only like to see Anakin if they:

    - went back to old Anakin - CG Shaw and a voice actor to do his lines

    I have no interest seeing Hayden Christensen in another SW ever again - let alone conversing with Luke Skywalker.

    I mean can you imagine that? I swear there would be booing in the theatre if force ghost Hayden showed up.
    Last edited by DV75, Apr 15, 2014
  12. Jair Crawford Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    An understandable sentiment.

    Personally, I would be okay with seeing Hayden... but I'm not so sure about hearing him. Ideally, if he's gonna talk, he'd be overdubbed...

    He's just so monotone when he speaks... Unless he's significantly improved since ROTS in that regard.

    Problem is that the 'newer' Anakin is what has become the standard for his Ghost, so to see the Shaw version would be a pretty big continuity issue. Especially since Shaw and Christensen hardly look anything alike. And as you said Shaw would have to be completely CG. I don't know how believable he would look. CG has come a long way, but I don't know if it can make a believable Shaw Anakin ghost.
  13. DV75 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2001
    star 3
    I think they can do pretty good with CG humans these days and besides the 'force ghost' lighting and effects can cover up any potential CG flaws.
  14. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    I think the Yoda arc of TCW invalidates:

    and

  15. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    I'll admit I only watched the Yoda arc one time so far (I've been rather busy as of late), but I don't recall how anything of what we saw there may have butted-heads with any of these concepts?

    Quite the opposite, in fact. I think TCW took many of the ingredients from the passage in the ROTS novel and ran with it (and quite possibly offers us further clues into how George Lucas may have addressed the use of Force-ghosts, immortality and/or the Netherworld of the Force in the ST).
    Circular Logic and Immortiss like this.
  16. thejeditraitor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    i'm just about to watch those episodes.
    Mystery Roach likes this.
  17. Lurknomore Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2014
    star 3
    Only Yoda. And just to get his face in the picture, not to deliver any plot-steering advice. We can leave that up to aged-Luke.
  18. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    well, considering:

    Show Spoiler
    The Yoda arc changes the fact that Yoda is already learning and aware of the power before the cut/novel dialogue from RotS, combined with changing it from one shaman of the whills to 5 priestesses, it definitely butted-heads.

    It's an example of Lucas keeping a concept (in this case Jinn learning the ability from someone and passing it to Yoda) but changing the details. TCW established a completely different version of the concept from the novel/cut dialogue by drastically changing the details and timing.
    Last edited by T-R-, Apr 16, 2014
  19. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Yes, but you're thinking too literally.

    Consider, nowhere did TCW change either that Yoda is now learning from Jinn or that the secret is "forever" (and these were two of the things I was arguing, based on the novelization). As I said, these were both actually reinforced by what we saw in TCW. The details were fleshed out/altered to make a compelling series of events in the show, but the core tenets are the same.

    My thinking is that if Lucas saw fit to keep the core of the scene in these ways, perhaps the final concept addressed in the quote (retaining one's "physical self" indefinitely) will be kept, as well.

    Now, I admit that the idea of physical immortality wasn't addressed on the show, but the Yoda arc did seem to indicate that the events Yoda undertook were a kind of purification ritual, whereas his "real" training was yet to begin.

    Could a surprise like the ability for a character extremely powerful in the Force (like Luke, perhaps) to defy death completely have been included in George Lucas' treatment for the ST? As Jinn said in the novel "perhaps, in time..."
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Apr 16, 2014
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  20. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    As I said, the concept is still there but the details WERE changed.

    The novel/cut dialogue clearly indicate that Yoda had no knowledge of this before he talked to Jinn. TCW clearly shows otherwise, invalidating the dialogue as written from the novel - but not the idea behind it.

    Someone strong enough in the force to become immortal was hinted at all the way back in 1983 when Yoda tells Luke "strong am I in the Force, but not that strong" to Luke's assertion that Yoda couldn't die, implying that someone strong enough could. As for the ST, maybe a Sith already achieved it and we need a Jedi, i.e. Luke, to achieve it in order to combat the Sith and destroy him.

    Either way, the dialogue from the novel was invalidated by TCW just like the RotJ novel had parts invalidated by AotC and RotS (see Owen Lars and Mrs. Skywalker as examples).
  21. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Then we are in complete agreement, because this is what I've been saying, too. I'm discussing the concepts explored in the scene, which were kept for the TCW arc, not whether the setting on Polis Massa, or the time following the execution of Order 66, are still considered canon. I'm not hung-up on that, only interested in what Lucas saw fit to keep from the scene and what he may still yet make use of (in the ST treatments).

    George drew from the wellspring of ideas presented in the novel scene -- note I didn't say "presented for the first (or last) time" -- and carried them forward. I'm suggesting that more from that scene (physical immortality) may yet be used.
    T-R- likes this.
  22. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2005
    star 3
    how do I choose just one?

    well I chose Qui Gonn.
  23. Darth_Zidious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2001
    star 4
    Who will know that Jedi can retain their identity after death? Will Luke be the only one to know?
  24. Doop Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2014
    star 2
    I want to see Anakin, Obi, Yoda, and maybe Palps.
  25. mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 3
    Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin convincing Luke that his last actions shouldn't be needed and that he needs to be reminded of how the force works.