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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Force=Knowledge?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Agriias, Dec 11, 2003.

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  1. Agriias

    Agriias Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2000
    Is the force supposed to be an analogy for knowledge? Its clear in the movies that the force is power. A force user is clearly advantaged over a non-force user. And i think it may be safe to assume someone like jango fett had some unrefined force ability.

    But in the duel between yoda and dooku, they both agree that they cannot settled the battle with force knowledge. so they then resort to more normal means of saber fighting.

    Understandably the jedi can force-jump,run,predict, mind trick and what not but are these really that complicated things?

    Is the force just another word for all the components of any feat? for instance in sprinting there is lots of technique to a relatively simple function, we all run, but with proper technique most people could probally increase their sprinting 20-50% maybe more.

    and force predicting in combat doesnt seem that unordinary, martial artist can clearly predict a few moves down the line depending on their opponents actions, they know in this situation you do this or that, he may do this so you do that. its basically knowledge and practice. sure if you did not know the possibilities of each situation then youll get rocked.

    maybe the force is just a metaphor for those with the ability to comprehend and seek power. whereas most people are to simpled minded to look deeply into many matters.

    Its been shown that jango especially being that best example, that a normal non force user(as far as we know) can hang with jedi, even kill some. mind tricks dont work on all beings. ect
     
  2. Aunecah_Skywalker

    Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 25, 2002
    Well, since the Force is everything, knowledge is definitely part of it. However, I don't think knowledge=Force, because there's no guarantee that an extremely knowledgeable person can use the Force.

    And, yes, mindtricks don't work on everyone. This probably has to do with whose will is stronger - the Jedi's or the person-the-Jedi-is-trying-to-mindtrick.

    Aunecah
     
  3. MacetheCouncillor

    MacetheCouncillor Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2003
    No, the Force is definitely not equal to knowledge. It is an enegy field in the Star Wars universe the surrounds all material entities and is possible to wield for certain Force-sensitive sentient beings.
    While knowledge about the Force will no doubt increase a Force-sensitive being's ability to use Force powers, knowledge about any other field will not increase a person's ability to wield the Force at all. Studying the history of Coruscant will not make any Star Wars character into a more powerful Force user. It will make the person more knowledgeable overall, though, and if the person is a Jedi, it might increase the person's rank within the Jedi order slightly, as knowledge within various fields seem to be greatly revered there and may even be seen as a path to greater and deeper wisdom.
    In the end, though, learning a lot of things in general, while it may be good for a person, will not advance anyone as a Force user. Anakin already used the Force unknowingly at the age of ten because he had a knack for it, while there must be a huge number of people in the galaxy who possess more knowledge in general (an educated medical doctor, engineer etc. must possess vastly more knowledge than a ten year old kid, no matter how gifted) but will never have touched the Force.
     
  4. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    Force = Faith
     
  5. MacetheCouncillor

    MacetheCouncillor Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2003
  6. Aunecah_Skywalker

    Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 25, 2002
    Force = Faith

    No.

    Faith is the belief in something that doesn't requisite rational backing. The Force does exist. The Jedi know it, the Jedi use it, and the Jedi can rationally defend the fact that the Force exist. So Force does not equal faith.

    Aunecah
     
  7. MacetheCouncillor

    MacetheCouncillor Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2003
    "No.

    Faith is the belief in something that doesn't requisite rational backing. The Force does exist. The Jedi know it, the Jedi use it, and the Jedi can rationally defend the fact that the Force exist. So Force does not equal faith.

    Aunecah"


    Exactly.
     
  8. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

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    Apr 6, 2000
    The way someone becomes stronger in the force is by putting their faith that it will help them. Look at Luke when he is trying to block the shots on the Falcon in ANH, or at the end when he turns his computer off on the X-Wing. He isn't a Jedi at the time or anywhere near, but when he takes a leap of faith he succeeds.
     
  9. MacetheCouncillor

    MacetheCouncillor Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 4, 2003
    "The way someone becomes stronger in the force is by putting their faith that it will help them. Look at Luke when he is trying to block the shots on the Falcon in ANH, or at the end when he turns his computer off on the X-Wing. He isn't a Jedi at the time or anywhere near, but when he takes a leap of faith he succeeds."

    Yes, but that does not mean the Force equals faith. The Force is an energy field that exists everywhere, faith is a state in someone's mind, so how can the two be the same thing?
     
  10. Aunecah_Skywalker

    Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 25, 2002
    The way someone becomes stronger in the force is by putting their faith that it will help them. Look at Luke when he is trying to block the shots on the Falcon in ANH, or at the end when he turns his computer off on the X-Wing. He isn't a Jedi at the time or anywhere near, but when he takes a leap of faith he succeeds.

    But that isn't faith. Luke could feel the Force. He knows of the existence of the Force. He had two choices: trust Obi-Wan or trust himself. Based on his previous experiences and his rational thoughts, he chose to trust Obi-Wan (and the Force because of him) rather than himself.

    There was no Indy-type of "Leap of Faith" involved in there.

    Aunecah
     
  11. DarthNigel

    DarthNigel Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2003
    I do not believe that the existence of the Force is considered a matter of rational fact unversally in the GFFA, and I think this is demonstrated by the following dialog between Luke and Han.

    Luke: "You don't believe in the Force, do you?"
    Han: "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other; I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."

    This conversation clearly indicates that within the GFFA, there are those who "believe" in the existence of The Force, and there are those who don't.

    Come to think of it, Luke hadn't even heard of the Force until he was in Obi-Wan's hut in ANH.

    General Dodonna and Admiral Ackbar both use the phrase "May the Force be with you/us", which indicates that there are people who are not Force-users, but who still either believe in the Force, or who accept the customary reference to it in certain situations. (perhaps like an atheist or agnostic who says "God bless you"?)

    For those of us watching the films, it's clear that the Force is a real phenomenon. But I strongly believe that within the GFFA, the question of whether the Force is real or not is a question similar to the question that exists in our universe regarding whether or not God exists. There are those who believe that God exists, those who believe that God does not exist, those who don't believe either way, or who believe nothing at all.

    I, for example, believe that God exists, but that this belief is (and forever shall be) a matter of faith, defying rational proof or disproof.

    In the words of William Gibson, "I think religions are like chicken franchises... but that doesn't mean that there is no chicken."

    I know I'm rambling a little. My main point is that non-believers in the GFFA exist, and have a rational (to them) basis for their non-belief. "Simple tricks and nonsense." Just like non-believers in our universe exist, and have a rational (to them) basis for their non-belief.
     
  12. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    I'd say that the Force could be better described as insight rather than knowledge. Remember that Ben Kenobi knew that something terrible had happened when they were journeying on the Falcon, but he didn't know what.

    Now obviously having access to the Force is also a conduit for power (levitate objects, push enemies around, enhanced speed, etc.), but notice that even masters like Yoda and Windu, no slouches in combat and the physical aspects of being Jedi, still work hard to understand the more esoteric aspects of the Force.
     
  13. EMPEROR_WINDU

    EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Force=Wisdom....more so than anything else
     
  14. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    There was no Indy-type of "Leap of Faith" involved in there

    Well I can't be bothered finding the quote, but if you've seen "The Mythology of Star Wars" with Lucas and Bill Moyers, Moyers mentions it takes a leap of faith, and Lucas says Luke uses it a number of times throughout all 3 films.

    And by the way, I can't believe you don't think Luke turning his targeting computer off was a leap of faith. What else is it?
     
  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    First off, the phrase "knowledge of the Force" is better translated "knowledge of manipulations of the Force." That is, since knowing how to use the Force doesn't come natural, you have to learn how each separate "power" works. This doesn't mean that one could accomplish those feats without the Force.

    However, I think there are notable exceptions. Lightsaber dueling, for instance, a part of the "Jedi Arts" can probably be used without any knowledge of the Force. It's just that no one really wants to.
     
  16. Aiwendil

    Aiwendil Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2002
    Certainly the Force may involve faith, but that does not mean that it is faith.

    What is the Force? As has been repeated several times, it is an energy field that surrounds all matter and is generated or sustained by life. That's the answer. Why try to reduce it into "knowledge" or "faith" or "wisdom" or anything like that when you already know the answer?

    A better question is: what does it generally take for someone to become aware of the Force and to use the Force?

    But even here, you won't get simple answers like "faith" or "knowledge" or "wisdom". It's probably a combination of these things and more that are involved in the actual manipulation of the Force.
     
  17. Aunecah_Skywalker

    Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2002
    And by the way, I can't believe you don't think Luke turning his targeting computer off was a leap of faith. What else is it?

    Uh...trust in Obi-Wan and the Force maybe, based on rational thought? He can feel the Force, so if there is "faith" involved anywhere, it has to be in the fact that he trusts the Force enough to decide that he's more likely to destroy Death Star via the Force rather than via his own meager eyes. But that's not faith. Luke made a choice based on rational thought.

    If Luke couldn't even feel the Force and blindly decides that with the help of the Force can he destroy DSI, then he's acting because of faith.

    Aunecah
     
  18. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    But we see the films from the perspective of people that claim to be able to feel the Force.

    That's the same claim people of any kind of faith make.

    Everyone but Luke, Vader, ghost Obi-wan, and the audience (who saw everything from Luke's perspective) thought Luke was just randomly turning the targeting computer off.

    Since in-universe, its not confirmed fact that the Force "exists" (in the OT, anyway, there's intense skepticism), then for Luke to do something believing that it does requires faith.
     
  19. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    These recent posts reminds me of a Lucas interview I saw somewhere. Basically he points out that by the end of the trench run, Luke is completely alone. Red Leader is dead. So is Biggs. Wedge couldn't keep up and had to leave.

    Combine with that the fact that Luke has also lost his mechanical assistance. He turned off the targeting computer and Artoo gets fried.

    So basically after Han chases away Vader and the other TIE fighters, it's Luke all alone by himself, needing to trust in himself to make the impossible shot. Now it's a matter of opinion whether that trust is in his own abilities or whether he's reached the point where he can enough confidence in the Force to let it act through him.
     
  20. spammaps

    spammaps Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2003
    The Force ain't equal knowledge at all. Honestly, none of the Jedi or Sith seem to be all-knowing.

    Force=Wisdom....more so than anything else

    I think that's more appropiate.
     
  21. Aunecah_Skywalker

    Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Knight star 5

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    Mar 25, 2002
    Force=Wisdom....more so than anything else

    I think that's more appropiate.


    I don't know. There definitely are Force-users who are nowhere near wise.

    Aunecah
     
  22. MacetheCouncillor

    MacetheCouncillor Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2003
    I don't think the Force can be considered equal to any one virtue. It is an energy field that exists independently from individual sentient beings. Wisdom or knowledge cannot exist without an individual to describe by those words.

    This is not to talk about the mathematical meaning of equality (=).

    In mathematics, if you know that x=y, you can substitute x for y or vice versa in any case where one would apply, and the meaning of the expression would still stay the same.
    So if, say, the Force was equal to wisdom, the word "wisdom" could be placed in any sentence where "the Force" was.

    Let us test it...

    The Emperor says to Vader in Episode VI:

    "Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force."

    If we made the exchange "the Force"->"wisdom" there, the new sentence would be...

    "Only together can we turn him to the dark side of wisdom."

    I don't think the latter sentence makes all that much sense, so I would have to say "the Force" is not equal to "wisdom".

    So, if you want to know if equality applies between two words, substitute one for the other in a sentence to see if the meaning stays the same. If it becomes nonsense, such as in this case, equality does not apply.
     
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