ST Force Powers In The ST Discussion Thread

I am talking about full on. But ya I know.

 

The problem is, while they HAVE portrayed the Jedi as useless, I don't think it was their intention at all... it is an accident, due to each writer and director doing their own thing without caring for the overarching story the whole saga tells...

Everybody is: "Jedi this, Jedi that...". It was made a great deal out of Luke being the last Jedi, of Rey being the future founder of the new Jedi Order, of Rey having the original Jedi writings, of the Jedi giving hope to the Galaxy...

But it doesn't matter, because they have unintentionally established the Jedi as irrelevant...

I never saw the OT as being about the Jedi; it was about the Rebellion against the Empire, and Luke's own path was just a part of that... So it was okay that it wasn't his Jedi training, but his good heart, what became key to defeat the Empire. He botched it as a Jedi knight, but he triumphed as a hero and as a son...

Jedi ultimately failed in the PT, but they also were kinda awesome. Yes, they sucked in a way, but because Palpatine was running in circles around them, but they still were cool and powerful and noble. And at the end, Yoda and Obi-wan were going to fix their mistakes; they would raise Luke to become the hero the Galaxy needed, refound the Jedi Order and undo all the mistakes...

But in the ST we learn that Luke failed miserably. People speak of Jedi, Jedi, Jedi... but there aren't Jedi in the ST; not really. There is a former Jedi called Luke who does nothing until the last minute (and all he achieves is to stall Kylo a few minutes so 20 or so rebels can escape...) and an untrained Force Sensitive who isn't a Jedi and knows nothing about the Jedi, who does all the heavy lifting...

And the wost part is, as I said, that I think it was unintentional. I think J J Abrams and Rian Johnson have tried to make the Jedi central to the story, but all they have done is to empty the word "Jedi" of meaning, probably because they thought that "Jedi" means "any non-Dark Side Force user who wields a lightsaber..."

 

In this thread and plenty of others we’ve talked about different reasons for why Rey’s Skill growth could have been accelerated (skill seen earlier from her life on Jakku, the mind probe revealing aspects of the Force, simply being more powerful than any Light side user since Anakin himself potentially as a result of the awakening to help balance Snoke and the grandson of Anakin’s rise with Luke disconnected with the Force, and the possibility that Luke at the same age was just a slower learner because he doubted things more) but beyond those 4 different reasons for why it may have happened, which are all solid enough on their own and even better collectively... I want to talk about something else for a moment.

Does it really matter that much to Star Wars if things move a little more toward the superhero/mutant end of the spectrum moving forward with new developing Force users starting at higher levels?

How can we honestly hold any film to logistical or continuity rules related to powers filmed 40 years ago or even 20 years ago. I realize the episode structure makes Star Wars feel different than other works and more of a larger whole where as much continuity between eras as possible helps the larger work but no other franchise has to play by action rules established 40 years ago like this? It’s not like the parkour stuff in modern James Bond isn’t allowed because the earlier Connery stuff was more just big punches and the firing of guns. It’s not like anyone expected Batman to stay at Adam West weaponry or fighting ability.

I realize Star Wars is different and that we want to hold it to a higher standard of universe continuity than other properties who’ve underwent countless updates for the times but to me having new heroes the rest of the way start a little higher than they used to just doesn’t bother me as much. Maybe I’m just accustomed to superhero origin stories or the like now but complications around the war itself, themes related to lineage or lack there of, complications related to attachment and fear and romance, standing up for what you love, and avoiding the temptation and corruptive power of the Dark Side to skew your moral compass, along with overcoming personal issues within yourself to become more of who you were meant to be... are all more important concepts to me within Star Wars than new characters having to be compared to where Luke or Anakin were at the same age and why.

I realize training, progression and the power of hard work are also ingredients of Star Wars but to me the narrative about easier paths was less about training and one side of the Force being like steroids and if you take it it’s faster and you don’t have to work as hard and that being the only different between Light side and Dark Side. For me, the easier path versus the harder path had more to do with morality. Facing painful truths and accepting them as truth rather than avoiding them. Wanting to lead at the top and thinking of ways to kill to get there rather than the harder path of being a leader that people admire and choose to follow. Lying to someone instead of telling them the truth. Listening to your guilt and seeking to atone no matter how hard it is to admit you were wrong versus killing your guilt or the people who make you feel guilty. Training is part of the equation but in comparison to the other aspects mentioned and what the films show us on screen and what moves and delights us... training seems to be a smaller ingredient over any one film’s running time in comparison to the others.

So, if one ingredient is adapted for the times or minimized to better keep up with new era of superhero films that kids are accustomed to doesn’t the starting point of Force power just make the most sense for compromise? Having new users just start at slightly higher levels than they used to and just have the masters and Master villains using more powerful EU powers that the younger heroes can’t do out of the gate? Just shift all of the powers up even if it messes with 40 year old continuity a little? I can sort of revert back my suspension of disbelief for each trilogy era I’m watching. And when I see the end of Rogue One and witness Vader’s amazing horror movie sequence I don’t get upset that it seems so much more badass than what we see out of him in most of the OT. I just feel fortunate to see him throwing multiple bodies around and blocking every single blaster shot at him and force pulling multiple weapons at once because it’s great fun and I know it would have been harder to do that scene at that same level of intensity 35-40 years ago.

Force-related rules related to what should be allowed and when based on what we saw in earlier eras of Star Wars and earlier episodes for the rest of time — or even continuity rules involving the same character in an anthology film — just comes secondary to me over filmmakers having the freedom to tell a moving story with emotion, and internal personal struggle related to family issues or romantic complications, and the war itself with action scenes that thrill in this era or heightened action and power expectations.

 

Qui-Gon was training for it and Anakin was saved by Obi-Wan and Yoda.

The difference is that the Jedi took their time with padawans. Obi-Wan could have taken the trials years earlier if needed but there was none.

That's an origin we don't know. We can only presume like anything in history it developed over time. Then it's look back on as that person was the first even if at the time it wasn't recognized as such.

They created among the first lessons but they learned from others who tried before.

The question with Rey is far beyond that. She entirely skipped learning to read and instead went basically straight into writing the proverbial Great American Novel.




Is it somehow outlandish that people have natural predisposition to different skills and abilities that others must struggle with? I don't think so.[/QUOTE]

 

The Nightsisters tapped into the dark side, but I wouldn't classify them all as being evil.

As for the ST, I like the greying of Force powers, as it feels more realistic, in the sense that many characters don't feel purely in the light or dark. The evolution of abilities also helps to expand the SW universe and not make it so restrictive. Ones deep rooted connection to the Force, as we see in Luke, lends itself to a broad spectrum of abilities and understanding of the nature of the Force. His knowledge clearly reached another level while in exile.

 

Just finished watching the first 3 episodes of Rebels with my young daughter.

Ezra does Force jumps instinctively and eventually an instinctive Force push to protect Zeb in episode 2. Neither workout training.

It’s just another reminder that the Force tends to find a way in teens who are struggling to survive and that they tend to utilize the Force without really knowing how. By episode 3 he is lifting up the crate lid and uses the Force to free the prisoners.

In Rey’s case, she loved to use her staff so it came out first through that. This is just how it is in new canon.

 

Ezra isn't a Force protege. Rey is. (is how I distinguish it)

 

Rey is stronger in the Force and learn quicker.

She is herself, why would we want to compare her to other Force Users?

The Force has called to her. Other users try to call the Force.

Her Force awakening was something the Force itself wanted. It is another level compared to a regular person just trying to learn the Force.

 

I’m not convinced they’ve abandoned the notion of progression in the post PT new canon world but I do think all characters (Ezra, Rey, Broom Boy, etc) will start with powers we previously associated with higher levels of mastery sooner and that they will be going more Legends style with new powers that new characters eventually work up to.

Things are starting at higher levels to better compete against the increased power expectations of a society comfortable with the Marvel films, and other blockbusters which feature powers or magic, and I also think they will peak higher but not without any training at all.

In Rey’s case I don’t think she would have been able to lift all of the stones without her time with Luke where she understood the Force more and that’s why she revisited that lesson beforehand. She had previously been using the Force in a less controlled almost instinctual manner like Ezra does early in Rebels but the stones moment is her first application of Luke’s lesson since she initially raised the smaller stones and the water earlier and it’s the first time she’s used the Force in that way to help others.

I suspect we will see her reading in the texts in IX and trying to apply what she learns there first to build her own double-sided saber and then later to perform a new Force feat that we perhaps have never seen before at all. If they’re smart they will give us more the failure montage for that one of her trying and not being able to do it a couple times that so many love to see. Johnson only let her slice through the rock one and fail at connecting to the Force with her hand out once instead of the more common trope of having that play out at least 2 or 3 times.

And that’s how I think Star Wars will be now. Force sensitives will start more like mutants in using the Force instinctively and for defence and doing things we used to associate 40 years ago as a huge deal but present day will be early development stuff.

I can get how some don’t care for the approach but so long as there’s progression I can suspend disbelief and accept that the Force has awakened somehow and just elevated everyone a little more from the older eras.

 

Nobody ever said that using the force was hard (except if you don't believe). What is hard, we are told, is the life of a Jedi who is expected to strip himself or herself of any attachments and discipline themselves to be obedient only to the will of the force and of the Jedi order under its mandate given by the Senate (so obedience to the Senate, ultimately). It's through this hardship and their recruitment policy that the Jedi controlled use of the force and, ostensibly, ensured the nurturing of only those suitable to wield their powers responsibly, ethically, consistently and for the greater good.

Without the Jedi order to control force users in this way and narrate their emergence into the realm of the force (traditionally from birth so everyday life does not distract them), then it follows that those who do become awoken do so in more spontaneous, circumstantial ways (like Luke discovering his force grab ability).

The Jedi's absence also means that many potential jedi/force users never have a conscious epiphany or awakening without knowledge of a community of force users to inspire belief in the force and in themselves. A situation that the final shot of TLJ indicated was in the process of recovering.

It is precisely because everybody has the potential to tap into the force to at least some degree and with varying degrees of ease (talent) that an order of Jedi exists. You don't necessarily need the Jedi to use the force. The galaxy arguably needs the Jedi to ensure that chaos doesn't reign with individuals finding discovering their powers in their own ways, under the wrong circumstances, using them for their own ends that may not be for the greater good.

The rites of progression that the Jedi imposed in the PT era were devised because the Jedi felt it shouldn't be an easy life. If it was inherently difficult to use the force, then there would be no need for a Jedi order controlling its use.

 

The Jedi order train everyone with potential that they thought suitable from birth. In effect, they did police force use.

 

But people CAN use the Force without training. It doesn't happen as often as with training though. It progresses through stages.

1) Gaining conscious awareness of the Force in oneself, to the extent one can consciously manipulate it in some way.

Even after someone ends up using the Force in some fluke scenario, they often don't realize what they did or what that meant--e.g. when Leia used the Force in the Leia novel to save herself and Kier while rock climbing. Often people's own minds block them from realizing the "incredible power" they hold. I think this is even more likely if they have little desire for power, are humble, have been sheltered/protected, etc.

My impression from reading the Darth Plagueis novel was that darksiders are more likely to realize they have the Force because they are often people with desires for power who might imagine and ask themselves more if they actually hold a hidden power they can use to control others and situations. In the DP novel, Palpatine knew he had the Force from an early age even if he didn't understand everything about what it meant conceptually. He was aware that he could use it and knew *how* to use it (at least for some things).

2) Coming to understand what their abilities mean and the nature of the Force so that one can see that their powers have endless applications because the Force flows through all things, connecting them together.

Once a person discovers their Force powers in certain ways and figures out how to use them (at least to some capacity), they still may miss the overall broader conceptualization of what their powers mean. For instance perhaps Broom Boy realizes he can summon objects to him, but doesn't realize this means there's an assortment of other "magical" things he could do, using that same power. Understanding that it's all the Force seems to often require some effort from people... They have to change how they see things to understand it. This is even true of Rey. She's used the Force in TFA, but she doesn't *understand* it. Luke's little lesson about the Force was probably very helpful in planting some seeds of broader understanding--reframing reality in a way the mind can make sense of things again.

There's a sort of bell curve for 1) and 2). The majority of FS people probably don't get to 1) as they never consciously realize they have the Force; and of those that do, not all of them reach 2) and therefore can't approach any significant mastery.

3) "Control, you must learn control."

As Obi-Wan explained, the Force partially controls one's actions, though it also obeys one's commands. The world one enters once they are aware of their powers and able to use them in this free-flow sort of way, isn't the same world they were in before. It's easier to get carried away by one's emotions. There are so many slippery slopes everywhere that if one lacks self-discipline then one may be on course for mistakes that Anakin and Luke have made. Anakin let himself get carried away with the Force in ROTS, and that led to his defeat. Luke let his mind wander from his task in ESB, and dropped everything he was holding with the Force.

Basically 3) is mastery of mind and body, and now with the Force. It's a long and difficult path. It's why Yoda says a Jedi must have "the most serious mind" and be so committed. It's why Qui-gon says it's not an easy life. Without 3) in some capacity a Force user is so vulnerable that they might be better off NOT using the Force. And I think 3) is what requires the MOST training.

4) Growing in the Force

It really seems that people tend to become more powerful the more they learn, and with the more experience they have. Perhaps it's because they connect increasingly with the Force the more they actively use it. So, for instance, Sidious told Yoda that he saw Vader as having the potential to become more powerful than either of them. He didn't mean that Vader currently was more powerful even if he has more midichlorians than either Sidious or Yoda. It's his connection with the Force that needs to mature for his power to grow.

If one can't get through 3) they may not survive to 4).

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So in short, most FS people can't even get to 1) and one who has progressed through 4) is rare indeed. And I think that's true throughout all the stories, including the ST. Unless the Awakening in the ST is also this sort of wave in which a lot of people suddenly begin to realize they have these powers.

I think that 1-->2 is the EASIEST of all the transitions.

Also, I think that Rey is in Stage 2. Ben Solo was in early Stage 3 when he fell to the dark side, and he has never mastered himself. Snoke and Luke are of course in 4.

 

Continuing from my previous post, there is lastly, Stage 5: Becoming one with the Force.

Masters who progress long through 4, gaining great wisdom, become one with the Force (if they are not killed off first). On the light side, this means the potential to become a Force ghost. On the dark side it means oblivion. The end the dark side seeks is simply nothing--everything will be annihilated, all will be empty because all was consumed. The end the light side seeks is everything (or rather, no end); it is eternity. Ironically of course, darksiders are more likely to be looking for eternity or immortality or some lasting way to control things even beyond their own death; while lightsiders achieve eternity by embracing their full being and letting go (surrendering to the light).

A successful dark side master might be like Darth Bane who left this veneer of "sentience" behind (the "monkey mind"). It can reason and hold a conversation, but it has no true awareness. All that Bane truly was (his soul, his person) is gone--consumed by the dark side. All that remains is this echo of his mind, and the echo thinks it achieved immortality, until of course Yoda confronts it with how it is actually nothing, and it evaporates.

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Also, stages 3 and 4 are difficult because it's hard to tell how far one has progressed. For instance Luke probably thought he was quite the Master until he had that moment of instinct to kill Ben. That made him realize he has a long way to go still. 3-->4 is deceptive and mastery over oneself that is gained can also be lost because the self is always in flux and responsive to experience. Stage 4 is not a vacation because one has finally mastered everything, but requires continuous work to maintain that mastery and evolve as life happens without losing that (in other words the path gets ever more difficult, not easier). It will have ups and downs. This part no one prepared Luke for, so once he experienced failure it made him completely doubt himself. It was a set back with serious consequences.

It will be interesting to see if after Rey has read the "sacred Jedi texts" she thinks that she's got it all down now--she's a master--or if she realizes that mastery is a huge thing and actually ends up asking Luke for advice. IX might show some challenges for her with this either way. Would IX really ignore mastery? I don't see how it could as the question of mastery came up for Luke in ROTJ and the ST so likes to follow the OT.

 

oncafar- great post but the problem is that you are using some of the defunct old canon stuff. The new canon does not include the DP novel and any references of that novel is null an void where new canon is concerned. New canon is TCW, Rebels, the saga movies, RO, the new novels under Disney, and the comic books from Marvel, not to mention the Battlefront II storyline and the storyline from the VR Star Wars: Secrets of the Empire. The only old canon stuff that is legit is the Darth Maul Clone Wars 4-Episode adaption of an un-aired arc. That's it. Everything else from Dark Empire to Legacy are not canon. Other than that, it is a good analogy.

 

Rey’s origin and lack of a Charles Xavier finding her and guiding her the way Luke and Anakin were guided reminds me of teen mutants struggling to find their way in a good way with Kylo Ren as the young Magneto trying to bring her over to his side.

It’s different for Star Wars films but I like it.

 

Watching the ground split plot armor moment in TFA again and was wondering if Yoda’s lightnining in TLJ could open the door toward a minor retconning of this moment in TFA.


It would check some of the same boxes. There was already a storm occurring on Ahch-To previously with lightning. The energy was there. Yoda just gave it that nudge and did so in a way that that didn’t kill or hurt any other living creatures and could lead to balance & rebirth of something new where that dead tree was.

There was energy being released on SKB at this time. A nudge to crack the earth between them at the same time to ensure both survived could be retconned as a similar force nudge. Especially if it turns out both are needed to work together to achieve balance somehow or if it does turn out that Rey does have a lineage tie-in to one of the Force ghosts and they didn’t want her to kill him in that moment.

It’s probably just plot armor but does the Yoda lightning perhaps open the door to make it seem like something more?

I’m imagining Rey learning of a lineage tie-in and asking if it was him who she heard and learning she’d been getting some minor nudges to help her along the way.

Thoughts?

 

I think the fact that TLJ occurs directly after TFA is what makes the progression of Rey's Force abilities tougher to accept. I've been fine with her intuiting the Force based off anything that was established as part of her daily life on Jakku, such as piloting and hand to hand combat. My biggest issue overall was her easy mastery of a Jedi mind trick on Starkiller Base, and I can sympathize with those who question her ability to lift all the boulders at the end of TLJ, given that her lessons with Luke didn't progress her that much.

I think a sizable time jump from TLJ to Episode IX will help with the progression of Rey's Force abilities.

 

@Ender_and_Bean - I don't think Yoda is necessary for this. I always simply saw this as The Will of the Force, keeping them apart and stopping them from killing each other as that was not their fate.

Looking back post TLJ, the Force could be seen to have saved them to be the ones to remove Snoke from the equation.

 

Actually JJ said he had the ground split between them because he didn't want Rey to just let him live for no reason, but he couldn't die in the first movie. Plus, if Yoda's just now deciding to step in. He's a few decades late. Could've showed up to warn Luke of his actions towards Ben...

 

To be honest, the Force mind bridge has made this entire trilogy worth it.