ST Force Powers In The ST Discussion Thread

You know, I think those two posts - especially the second one about Luke's training - might just be the best things I've read on here. Ever. Great posts @EntechednReformatted

 

If training wasn't at least somewhat overrated then Anakin wouldn't have become a force ghost but he like non space Jesus Qui-Gon figured it out despite Obi-Wan and Yoda having to train for it.

Nor would Luke have ever become a Jedi at all when Obi-Wan was still a padawan in his mid to late 20's but Luke cut his short after days, weeks, or at most months.

Hell, how was there a first Jedi with no one to train them?
Most of us are able to process a universe where flight lessons are a really good idea while accepting the Wright Brothers muddled through on the go.

How did I learn to read? I have no recollection of not knowing how but remember learning how to tie my shoes and even writing. Clearly reading doesn't work like talking does at least in most cases as I remember others having to learn and have known adults who never got it.

Is it somehow outlandish that people have natural predisposition to different skills and abilities that others must struggle with? I don't think so.

 

Those aren't failures of skill at all though. The beings discussed just a have brain structure that doesn't allow mind tricks to work on them.

Rey performed hers on a human that is under stormtroopers indoctrination right down Broadway of the definition of easily influenced. Luke or Qui-Gon would have that trooper doing their laundry on one leg in a heartbeat.

I also would argue that was by far her biggest stretch of a show of power but is still a fairly minor one.

My assumption is she picked it up when Kylo was in her head but this is the most dodgy thing the rest is just belly aching and too extremely limited ability to suspend disbelief to be a fan of fantasy at all as well as being at least somewhat hypocritical considering what would by definition be hand waived in the past with Anakin and Luke to my eyes.

 

Even if it was just a question of Luke being too disbelieving to instantly pick up some force powers, that still means it gave the character some obstacles to overcome to make it more interesting and suspenseful. And he didn`t best his enemies because they somehow conveniently had too many obstacles themselves.

Then there is showing some strain to using the force. Yes, size matters not but even Yoda sweats lifting an entire ship a tad more than lifting a pebble.

Would it have killed them to depict it as if Rey at least had to struggle to float all the rocks?

Snoke was the only one in the movie who presented a realistic obstacle for her and he is gone. Unless they invent a new random bad guy, her going up against Kylo and the Knights of Ren makes me think of the hallway scene with Vader in Rogue One. Yup, I really thought those rebels had a realistic chance against him. Right now, I get the impression she is unbeatable. Kylo was unconscious after their tug-of-war for the saber and she got away so even that, technically, I`d give her as w win. Her questions about her family, her emotional hang-up, never hindered her force abilities one bit.

 

Anyone notice that with all of Rey's abilities and her beating Kylo Ren, she didn't do anything with it in TLJ? I expected the with her power, Snoke would exploit her vulnerability being her family and causing her to go crazy in anger thus showing her dark side abilities. None of that. She moved rocks at the end of the film and that's it. No anger-filled lack of control.

Where does she go from here? There's NO progression upward for Rey.

I'd love to see a duel in the beginning of the film where Kylo has Unleased type powers and Rey cannot defend well against them. Increase Kylo's powers to make him more unbeatable.

Right now Rey is still powerful as far as we know and already punked Kylo in TFA. Where else is there really to go?

 

The saber pull moment at the end is a throwback to the end of TFA in the snow and this time Kylo Ren’s connection to the Dark has increased following the murder of Snoke and he’s able to stop her from pulling it as she once did.

He’s also getting healthier from his wound and beat 5 guards to her 3.

 

The progression for all the characters will be whatever they want it it to be in episode 9.

 

He hadn't even met Yoda and he and Obi-Wan had a hyperspace trip with barely enough seeker ball training to keep Luke from cutting off his own head if that.

Obi-Wan even says that was his first step into a broader world right before they arrive in the former Alderan system.

He then takes on a significant leadership role with the Rebellion that would make any self training an unguided hobby at best and may have actually been nonexistent entirely and actually is just a kind of

headcannon.

The prequels themselves lend some support to these notions, they flat out say their ability to use the force has been diminished and wonder if they should report such to the Senate and that the dark side has also clouded their vision.

The Jedi we know are a diluted version of themselves and nothing actually supports them being the end all be all of using the force just the dominant sect in the Republic.

The peak of the order is not what we know, it has already fallen into disrepair and become wrong headed.
That is why Qui-Gon is important to the story and why he is both shown to be ideal and it is inferred he is often at odds with the council.

 

If she were unstoppable in TLJ, she should have been able to overcome Kylo and pull the Blue to her. But she couldn't They seemed evenly matched. Yes, Kylo was out longer than her (or maybe she didn't get knocked unconscious, but that doesn't seem to be related to her use of the Force, unless we hear otherwise (it'll be interesting to see if the novelization covers that at all).

 

The structure is what made the Force use successful. This sort of training got better results than that sort of training. You mean children are more gullible. As you say, the Force is not magic, so children more easily believing in magic is irrelevant. Children needed to be trained to NOT give into their emotions as children are wont to do. Not sure you can call it a "relationship" with the Force. The Force is always there. It's more like being trained to access it and then with the access comes the use.

 

I read them and expressed my point of view.

I called the dynamic as I saw and was responding to another poster not at you personally nor coming at you with any glass slipper demanding you wear it.

If you are insulted then I think you self selected to be the target since I don't recall any accusations addressed to Pro Scoundrel or any specific entity but if so then I certainly apologize for that.

 

About Luke, yes I think his issues were the following:

1. Lack of self-belief and misconceptions that are blocking him. He can't lift his X-Wing from the water, it's too big.
2. Difficulty maintaining focus and concentration. As soon as he senses his friends are in danger he drops everything. His mind is what needs training and that is what Yoda is focusing on. His mind wanders.

I actually think that Kylo has similar issues to Luke in all of this.

Rey doesn't seem to have problems 1 or 2. Her issue to me seems to be that she just starts using the Force without any finesse. She is able to master grabbing objects and mind control quickly. The danger is that she just gives into blind impulse, so yes she'll start cracking entire mountains when she senses the dark side cave, just as she will impulsively draw the lightsaber in her fight with Luke. She is dangerous with the Force. She needs to learn to put the breaks on. Luke OTOH was already so careful that he was trying to brake all the time, and he had to learn to let go and stop overthinking it. They have very different problems.

Another related thing is that Rey just kind of barges in all the time. She barges onto Luke's island making demands. She barges into Snoke's throne room making demands. And when she is angry, the Force comes directly to her aid, and she might crack an entire mountain.

 

Could do without quoting a full page post every time, TBH.

There's some great debate in here but it's a slog to slide through the quotes.

 

When she tries to kill Snoke herself, and subsequently while fighting the guards, she shows some definite anger. There's also some when she lashes out at Luke (which I think ties back to Finn's first encounter with her), and notably, she goes to the saber before stopping herself.

 

They both kill 4, probably to show the balance of the force or something. But it's mos def 4 to 4, though they both help each other out w/ 1. Hers is before the break when she sticks her saber through a PG while its weapon is engaged w/ Kylo's saber and his is when she gives him her saber to use before he gets chocked out.

 

Looking at Yoda's lessons, what the dark side represents seemed to me very clear: Being a good person is the right thing to do, but it's often more difficult than what we would like it to be. On the contrary, being evil is somehow the easy path to follow, because we are free from the constraints of our morality.

This interpretation does not seem to be fit for the character of Kylo Ren, because he struggles to be on the Dark Side and he does it with considerable effort.

So, my question is: How can we conciliate Yoda's description of the Dark Side with Kylo's difficulty in following it?

 

The distinction that Yoda is making is that it is easier to fall into the selfishness and pleasure seeking/power aggrandizement that leads to the dark side than it is to remain in the light. That does not mean that a dark sider won't be tempted by the light or struggle with it. We've seen part of Ben's fall. He had a darkness within him, one that Snoke manipulated further that led to the academy catastrophe. It was the easier path for him to follow.

The full extent of his struggle is unclear. We know he did not fire on Leia's ship (though his subordinates took care of it). His interactions with Rey could have served two nefarious purposes (setting the bait for her, in line with Snoke's plan; setting up his own plan to have her join forces with him). It could have been similar to what he did with Han, pretend as if he is struggling and then flip the switch on him. What makes him interesting is that we're really not sure how conflicted he actually is.

 

Agreed.

Quite frankly, I think the ST has done a better job of presenting the temptation of the Dark side than ever before in any of the Episodic films. And for some of the same reasons that @3sm1r thinks it isn't. As Luke says to Rey the Dark Side presents you with something you think will fix your problems easily. That's what makes it the easier path. Ben Solo is still on his path toward increased Darkness and the conflict he feels is what the Dark Side wants him to routinely to snuff out.

Kylo Ren:

Do you think Vader cared about what his mother would have thought? Stop thinking about your father and how you could return home. He was a loser unworthy of the Skywalkers. He's why you're weak. Kill him and be done with it so that you can become who you were meant to be. Do it. Don't think. Act.

(Kylo Does)

And to Luke:

You spent your entire life bettering the Skywalker name and not falling the way your father did to the Dark Side and to teach others to not go that path and this guy idolizes him and wants to undo everything that you did in life and hurt all of your loved ones and become even worse than your father was in his name and kill even more people... End him here and now and all of that goes away. Nobody needs to know what happened.

(Luke snaps out of it and doesn't but there are consequences)

And to Rey:

Your family abandoned you for drinking money. Nobody has ever cared about you. Nobody has ever understood you. You've tried so hard to be good and what has it gotten you? Nothing but hunger and pain and suffering. Luke doesn't believe in you. This guy can be turned. This was your destiny and he will turn for you because he realizes in you what nobody else does.

(Rey acts and goes to him and it does not go the way she thinks)

and later:

Why not take him up on his offer? Remember how hard life used to be? You were a nobody. Now you could be the most famous person in the galaxy. No more food rations. No more sleeping in junk. You can live like few ever have. If your parents could see how much higher than them you've raised. From junker to leader.

(Rey has more pride and resiliency and doesn't accept)

The Dark Side prays on your weakness, hidden desires, vulnerabilities, and tries to turn your fears, and fears over not getting what you think you deserve, into anger, and then into hate and then accepting the easy path offered and acting. In my opinion, the ST has done a terrific job of expanding on these concepts from George Lucas.

 

Agreed.

You have very well explained why the dark side is tempting, but the discussion I wanted to stimulate is about the reason why Kylo should struggle to follow it, if it isn't natural for him. Usually people try to be good and end up being mean because it's easier, not viceversa.

 

That's in many ways the point of Kylo Ren in comparison to Anakin though. Anakin fell to the Dark Side because he feared loss and had serious anger issues like all of the Skywalker men. Luke could control his anger better than Anakin or Kylo Ren and was always able to sense the Dark Side calling for him and snap out of it in ways his father couldn't. His moment versus Ben Solo was presumably the first time in his life where being able to stop the family curse faster than the rest and realizing it was the Dark Side calling out faster than the rest still wasn't fast enough. Kylo Ren seems primarily driven by ambition. He's the first of the Skywalker men to really have a good grasp of both paths because of his Uncle's teachings and his eventual knowledge of Darth Vader as his grandfather and he's come to believe that the Skywalkers are meant for greatness and squandering their potential and that he will be the one to finish what Vader didn't. He will be the first Skywalker to rule the galaxy. Even his interpretation of Luke's intent seems to be built more around his impression that Luke was envious of his power rising and that he'd become more famous than Luke was in the end.

Kylo Ren is driven almost entirely by the ambition and accomplishment. People who don't achieve are nobody's in the galaxy. He probably thinks his father is a nobody and that his father is part of the reason his mother and uncle are nobody's when they could be so much more. So, because he chose the Dark side willingly for ambitious reasons and because the Dark Side was the easier path toward his end goal of becoming an infamous ruler of the galaxy his antagonism comes from the power of the Light that he'd underestimated was still within him that would make that goal harder. So, his battles and growth as a villain come from him psyching himself up to try and overcome the power of the Light side which reminds him that the path he's on may end in loneliness, and in never making it to the Force afterlife, and in hurting people that deep down he would rather not hurt. He is the inverse of a hero in this way and that's why there still remains a chance that the aforementioned Light side powers that proved hard for Vader himself to fully avoid in the end may also bring him back and realize that the power alone just isn't worth it.

 

Yeah, I agree. Indeed then he tries to use the fact that Rey is the daughter of nobody to convince her to change side, because that's exactly what would have worked with him: pushing on his desire to "be someone". You can really see the disdain in his face when he says "they're nobody'.

 

Well, before the Sequel Trilogy, you had to train and meditate a lot in order to be able to use the Force. If you were in distress or unfocused or had doubts, you failed.

The Dark Side only requires that you have strong negative emotions and to be willing to use them... It certainly is easier and quicker... is better? Does it make you happier? Nope. But you get more power faster...

After the ST, I don't know why anybody would bother using the Dark Side, since the "Light" is just as easy...