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ST Force Powers In The ST Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Ender_and_Bean, Dec 31, 2017.

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  1. Cantina Regular

    Cantina Regular Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 24, 2016
    Ben seems to struggle with the Dark side because he still has his conscience. He knows what he is doing is “wrong” but feels it needs to be done.

    Being betrayed by his uncle has left him emotionally unstable, killing his father ruined him, he decided against delivering the killing blow to his mother and is momentarily horrified when his wingmen open fire.

    Be believes the past needs to be washed away and only the dark side would allow him to do that. And he already acts on emotion alone so the switch is already flipped. But unlike Vader and the Emperor it seems like Ben still cares and in the end wants to do what’s right. Like he’s constantly trying to adhere to “the ends justify the means” even though he is struggling with every means
     
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  2. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    Anakin was a good person tempted by evil whose fear of loss led to his fall to the dark side

    Ben, on the other hand - is a good person trying to be a bad guy who's tempted by his true nature despite his attempts to stay evil, to stay something he's not. His greatest enemy is compassion. Compassion he has. Not sure what exactly's in the new EU, but I know that even though he had a bit of a troubled relationship with his father, he certainly still loved him. It's very obvious he still loves his mother. And whatever form of positive feeling it is for Rey, he still has compassion for her - and Snoke accuses him of exactly that in the TFA novelization

    And I'm really hoping it's that which leads to his redemption. He can try to hide from the true legacy of his family, but he can't hide from who he is. He can't stay evil with all that. He's got too much Anakin in him
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  3. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    More than right or wrong I'd say he feels a very spontaneous sense of compassion, as the other poster pointed out:
    I agree. Compassion is the key word. He feels compassion and he is ashamed of it. I was just asking myself why Yoda described the dark side as something quicker, easier and more seductive while for Kylo it seems quiet the opposite: the light side is tempting (= it is "seductive") whereas Kylo has to endure a devastating inner fight in order to remain faithful to the dark side. The dark side doesn't seem so easy and quick after all [face_thinking][face_thinking]
     
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  4. La Calavera

    La Calavera Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 2, 2015
    It should be according to Yoda, but thanks to JJ Abrams’ obsession with inversions, we now have a situation of a wannabe darksider in which the light side is the seductive, easy path for him and he is trying to resist it. You compare his Force journey with Rey's, and it does feel like Rey is the one taking the easy path with no obstacles.

    But that is more an issue of TFA than TLJ. As it stands, you have a guy who wants to be a sociopath but still has compassion, which doesn’t make much sense. If we're to assume the darskide means all the bad, easy, seductive things, then Kylo Ren is like a guy who feels temptation to eat healthy food but fights against it just because he wants to stick to McDonald’s for no reason.[face_dunno]

    I no longer bother with trying to conciliate these contradictory themes.
     
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  5. Cantina Regular

    Cantina Regular Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 24, 2016
    Isn’t it supposed to contradictory? Obi-wan and Palpatine both used the point-of-view arguments in the past.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  6. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    This example works very well. I like Kylo Ren, I jus think that some clarification was needed, and TLJ would have been a good opportunity.

    Well, here it's not a matter of points of view: we actually saw Kylo's behavior onscreen. He's visibly tormented.
     
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  7. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    It's not that the light side is seductive for Kylo Ren, per se, so much as that he's trying to deny his true nature for what he might genuinely feel is a better cause, but deep down, he knows what's right and what isn't. It's not an easy thing to so drastically force oneself to become something they're not
     
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  8. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    But you're implying that it is somehow natural for him to follow the light side, and this is precisely where my problem is. The light side should be, according to Yoda, the most difficult path, requiring training and discipline, and not a direction we'd follow spontaneously.
     
  9. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    Perhaps not the light side itself so much as who he is as a person. Just a good person with compassion who isn't really evil

    I don't think the light side is "don't murder people" so much as "don't be greedy" or other basic negative traits that don't necessarily make one evil

    I mean, it's like, I don't think it's an everyday struggle for the average person to figure out if they want to murder someone or not. But if you see someone drop a $20 bill, do you pocket it yourself or tell them about it and give it back? That's an extremely minor analogical example of how the dark side can be quicker and easier, but in Kylo's case, it's more so about being a good person than on either path

    Hell, wouldn't surprise me if his character arc's resolution is to neither rejoin the light nor stay on the dark
     
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  10. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    I can bet a pizza that things will go that way.
    Anyway, I like that you do practical examples.
    So can you give me a plausible example of someone who does his best in order to be evil? I mean why would you do that? It's like the McDonald's analogy of the other poster. You don't force yourself to eat junk food while being tempted by healthy food. You might at most do the opposite.
     
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  11. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    It isn't natural/healthy behaviour. I could get into irl human psychology (doubt that's what the writers have in mind for Kylo), but it's POSSIBLE he has some kind of mental disorder. Hell, real life psychologists diagnosed Anakin with borderline personality disorder in the PT

    But the thing with Kylo is, on the surface, he believes he's justified and correct by saying the dark side is the way to go, but he subconsciously knows it goes against who he actually is. Adam Driver's said pretty much that

    Except, like I said, in Kylo's subconscious, he knows it's evil

    So the McDonkadonk example is more akin to someone who knows it's unhealthy, tells themselves it is healthy, and eventually comes to outwardly think it is
     
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  12. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 20, 2012
    THREAD MERGE.
     
  13. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Yes, the ST is largely built on inverting and subverting things we saw or thought we knew from the previous films. This is another example. Some like it, some don't.
     
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  14. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    The Light Side is so difficult to follow, that Kylo could not manage to follow it, despite his inner struggles.

    The Dark Side offered him an easy and quick answer: let the past die. Kill it, if you have to.
     
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  15. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    But we see in TFA that he has many troubles in following the dark side too. He talks with the mask of Vader and asks for strength, or something very similar. He's tormented because he would like to follow the dark side with more determination than what he really has.
     
  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I am really liking the new Force powers. Especially Force Projection.
     
  17. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    My feeling is that the Dark Side is easier once you fully commit to it. He was not fully commited yet by TFA.
     
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  18. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Nor was he in TLJ. He does not shoot Leia remember?
     
  19. 3sm1r

    3sm1r Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 27, 2017
    Oh, this is very interesting: at a first sight I would have said the exact opposite: that it is easy at the beginning, when you just need to let the temptations seduce you, but then it becomes difficult to stay committed to it.

    IMO one of the best scene in the movie, and also the reason why I like the character.
    Usually you have characters who are moved by their instincts to do something evil but then they rationalize and manage to avoid it. Here we have the opposite: he tries to follow evil principles but he's naturally blocked by his spontaneous sense of compassion.
     
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  20. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Me too. I don't like people using them without training, but I like the powers themselves.
    Yes, but that was early in the film. He seemed pretty committed by the end. We'll see.
     
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  21. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    I guess that Luke laid out a very solid base regarding the Light Side of the Force, which Kylo now struggles to overcome.

    If all, this means that Luke was a great teacher.

    I know it is not consistent between movies, but the yellow Dark Side eyes are an indication of someone who just crossed the border and is fully commited. Kylo still does not have them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  22. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    It still sorta bugs me that Rey can just lift rocks with no training. But that’s no here not there
     
  23. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014
    He was by the end, I think. Snoke sensed his resolve. And when he committed to killing Snoke, that was the first step. Then when he refused Rey's advance, he pretty much tipped over into it. On Crait, he ordered his troops to kill everyone, no quarter, no prisoners. He knew that included his mother.
     
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  24. Seagoat

    Seagoat Former Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 25, 2013
    The dark side doesn't necessarily mean one is evil

    Likewise, the light doesn't necessarily mean that one's a paragon of justice
     
  25. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I mean So far we have only seen evil people use the dark side
     
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