Speculation Force powers with the newly balanced Force

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Count Yubnub, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    Interesting question.

    Although I think it might be grasping at straws. I think Lucas just used it as a plot device. It gives us a (cheap) explanation as to why a bunch of Jedi Masters could not sense a Sith Lord right under their noses. It also adds (supposedly) more meat to Anakin's story arc and makes his sacrifice and destruction of the Sith in ROTJ more final and meaningful., after all, it is the Tragedy of Darth Vader.

    Lucas didn't think he was ever gonna make the ST when he was making the PT, and now he has found himself written into another corner. (The other corner he wrote himself into concerns the villain. The Emperor was supposed to be the main villain, but again, when he was making ROTJ, he didn't think he was going to make the ST so he killed him off)

    More evidence to the fact it is a plot device Lucas just pulled out of his ass is the fact that there is no mention of it in the OT. My guess is that either one of two things will happen in the ST: It will be ignored and not addressed, or Anakin will appear as a force ghost and give a flat clumsy explanation, similar to how Obi-wan pointlessly appeared in ROTJ to retconn all that family stuff.

    As for the villain issue, I think Lucas will do the same thing he's always done: make it up as he goes along.
  2. GlueParkEnigma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2012
    star 1
    Ok after reading some of these threads it's apparent that there are obviously different thoughts on what balance to the force means. I had always thought that it was like a balancing scale where balance can occur by putting equal weight on both sides of the scale, so of there was 1 on each side the force would be in balance or 100 on each side the force is still balanced and also 0 on each side as well. And now I see this really being a count of force users on either side. This never meant that for every Jedi you needed a sith but that a sith = x(Jedi) or sith - x(Jedi) = 0. That explained to me why the sith seemed stronger.

    But I like the idea mentioned above of natural state vs untatural state where unnatural state equals to much leaning to either side good or bad, as this allows for a natural tendency to return to balance and so ones sides powers are stronger permanently but changes over time depending on how the force is being used.


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  3. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah I agree that the prophesy makes Anakin's sacrifice more interesting and that it creates a nice arc spanning the six movies. I'm not sure it's "just" a plot device though—that particular issue could've been dealt with in a number of ways, not bringing it up being the easiest one. But it is straight out of Campbell, so I think it does "stay true" to the spirit of the OT regardless of whether it's mentioned or not.

    BTW, early scripts for ANH had a prophesy (of the "Son of the Suns," referring to Luke), so it doesn't seem to be entirely from the "made up as we go along" bin, but more from the "using old ideas that were left behind for some reason" bin.

    Of course it's possible the prophesy stuff is going to be retconned—maybe Anakin hasn't brought balance yet despite having destroyed the Sith, maybe the "prophesy was misread," or something like that. We'll see. We've had plenty of retcons in Star Wars, it won't be the first time if they go that route. Personally I'd love it if there's an arc to the entire 9-movie saga, and if that requires a retcon of the prophesy stuff, so be it.
  4. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    "Balance" is Lucas' world isn't so much an equilibrium between two opposing sides but more importantly, steadiness, like being emotionally balanced ("when you are calm, at peace").
    Lucas' idea on this—he's mentioned this a few times—is that the Force naturally is in balance. The Jedi's use of the light side of the Force doesn't change this balance, but the Sith's "unnatural" use of the dark side unbalances the Force. Admittedly this isn't really said explicitly in the movies.

    But yeah, some people like to interpret it in the way you describe, as referring to the number of Force users.
  5. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    isn't there an argument that the Sith use the Force for their own ends - ergo, make the fore their servants - whereas the Jedi use the Force to the aid of others - ergo, they are servants of the force?
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  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the Force-users. Trying to make it a Force user head count conflicts with the available evidence, mainly what we know about the situation in TPM, ROTS and ROTJ.

    No. Light side of the Force = one side of the Force in its natural state.

    No. Dark side of the Force = another side of the Force in its natural state.

    Didn't you notice the movies used the term "the good side"?

    No. Anakin Skywalker's destiny was to destroy the Sith.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 25, 2012
  7. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    This. I'd say the strongest evidence is this line from Obi-Wan:

    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Nov 25, 2012
  8. fishtailsam Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    I always got that the "balance" of the force thing was like a state of harmony. Any dark force users would put the force out of balance. If the force was ever in perfect harmony, people would be able to perform amazing acts.
    Yoda says that the diffence between moving a rock and a ship is only different in your mind. So, theoretically, if you were like 'zen-ed' out enough, you could do some crazy matrix\goku\starkiller stuff. Which might be cool. But could also look super stupid.
  9. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    It's like Yin-Yang, there must be perfect harmony between the two. Any more of one or the other will cause an imbalance. Maybe this will be some driving force (no pun intended) for an antagonist to pursue The Dark Side... to maintain the harmonious balance. It'd be a nice, twisted perspective on The Force - i.e., "I need to be a Sith because we need the Dark Side in order to truly know the Force." Much like Palpatine's statement to Anakin about knowing all aspects of The Great Mystery.
  10. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I'm not even sure it just means Dark Force users upset the balance of the force... I almost wonder if it means say... any force user that attempts to go against the will of the force upsets the balance of the force, light or dark... maybe?
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  11. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah, exactly. This is exactly what I'm wondering about.
  12. Skaddix Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Honestly clone wars cartoons make it so much worse given all the security leaks, it was obvious Palps was the leak. don't need force sensing just some basic detective work.
  13. fishtailsam Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    I have always hated the starkiller/ force Unleashed style, I thought it "didn't feel like" starwars. But with a new trilogy, they might could pull off some force-madness like some epic force pushes toward the ground that launch you into a "falling with style" type near-flight.
  14. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    By the way, if lifting a ship and a rock is "only different in your mind," why is Yoda so tired after lifting the ship? PLOT HOLE! [face_plain]
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Nov 25, 2012
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  15. fishtailsam Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    Maybe after living so long next to that evil cave, he's not up-to-snuff. Lol
    Maybe he's dealing with feeling all the evil stuff the emporer is doing. ???
  16. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    I think that in the sequels, you may see a somewhat less "goody two shoes", yet also a less sclerotic, inflexible, and hypocritical Jedi Order.

    This may also involve some blurring of distinctions that existed in the prequel era. Remember that in RoTJ, we saw Luke use Force Choke, which, while not ever exclusively so, was always more of a dark side-aligned force ability. I think we may see some more along those lines.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Nov 25, 2012
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  17. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    Along with new uses for the Force/older Force powers?

    I would like to see Force Powers, especially Dark Side powers, involving fire. Say, blasts of fire from a Sith's hands, instead of lightning. I would also like to see the Lightsaber be used in conjunction with Force powers. Say, a Jedi imbues his blade with the Force, making it even more lethal. Indeed, in TPM when Qui Gon is cutting through the blast door in the start of the movie, he appears to be meditating and focusing on the blade to enhance it's cutting power.
  18. jasman Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 1998
    star 4
    You just saw "OZ," didn't you? ;) One sister had "force lightning" the other made fireballs. Oops! "spoiler alert!"
    Last edited by jasman, Mar 9, 2013
  19. Death T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    I hope they don't get too crazy with it. I don't want them to turn this into Avatar the Last Air bender. At the same time I won't mind if they're a little creative with it. The books and comics have been pretty liberal with its use of force powers whereas the movies have been fairly restricted to force choke, lightning, telepathy, force jump/pull/push, and levitating stuff. They will probably go with the former model and introduce a new power or two to spice things up and draw people in. You're right; if anything they will probably invent a new dark side technique to make the villain stand out and be more powerful. Otherwise you just have the Jedi learn new stuff after getting bored and messing around with the force or whatever. The Jedi have always been more minimalistic in their use of the force, while the Sith have been more experimental with drawing on its power to mess people up in combat (force choke, lightning) and learning new things to do with it.
    Last edited by Death T, Mar 9, 2013
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  20. clone3131 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2004
    star 4
    I liked those force bubbles you could throw in Unleashed. That would be cool....

    -C
  21. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    lol no, but funnily enough I watched a trailer of it last night. It looked pretty good TBH, and I can't wait to see it. Jack the Giant Killer also looks really good, can't wait to see that as well. What a great time to be a movie fan. :D

    Anyhow, yes the Sith are always more liberal in using the Force to harm or kill others, because as Yoda said jedi uses the force in defence, not in offence. (the time he knocked out/killed those red guards is an exception ofcourse, as he needed to focus on Sidious, what with the fate of the entire galaxy at stake)

    I would also like a Sith to Force Crush an entire planet. You know, like Vader and Tyrannus choke their living opponents; I want a new Sith Lord to Force Grip and then slowly crush into smithereens an entire planet. Massive bonus if it is Coruscant. Size matters not and all that. Plus, would be cool to finally see why the ability to destroy planets is insignificant compared to the power of the Force. I want to believe Vader didn't mean a dude using the Force to bend the laws of physics and cause a proton torpedo to curve and thus destroy the death star was what the power of the Force was all about.
  22. Klingon Padawan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2013
    star 1
    It would be pretty cool if the Sith destroyed planets with the Force like what Darth Nihlius and Emperor Vitate did in the EU. Also, other extreme Force powers are Sith alchemy, and I would love to see that in the ST.
  23. Norrad_Roff Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 4
    No "new" force powers. Pretty much cheating death would have been the pinnacle of any Jedi's/Sith's abilities.

    PT had shown the peak of thge Jedi order. A few decades after Luke was "the last of the Jedi" wouldn't be enough time for any Grand Masters ala Yoda or Mace Windu to develop.

    Just gimme some good ol' fashioned knock 'em down, drag 'em out fights in the next 3 movies. Gritty and personal.
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  24. Leias_Left_Bun Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2013
    star 2
    None.

    One of the things I didn't like about the PT was the so many of the fight scenes looked like a frickin video game, with bodies and laserblasts constantly flying and ping-ponging around the screen. Watching a movie where half the action looks like a glorified video game might be great if you're a tweenage boy, but for me it was dull. It felt like so much of the focus and energy that went into the making of the PT went into thinking up every conceivable way for Anakin and Obi-Wan to use their lightsabers in battle. As opposed to focusing on story and character.

    Don't get me wrong -- I understand that the Star Wars movies need action. They need fight scenes and chase scenes and great big battles. But great action scenes don't have to mean bigger explosions or more frequent explosions or some new kind of force-lightning that creates a giant fireball to incinerate the bad guys. Some of the greatest action scenes in the history of cinema are the most low-tech -- just two characters with swords, or even in hand-to-hand combat.

    If they want to explore the Force some more, how about telling us a bit more about the mental and spiritual side of being a Jedi? In-between the fight scenes and chase scenes, of course.
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  25. Doug625 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 1
    How about time travel? So they can go back in time and change the prequels! lol kidding!
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