ST Force Users/Orders In Ep. 9 & Beyond

Episode 9 is going to be the end of the Skywalker Saga. Looking at the plans on the table for Star Wars, they are shifting gears to tell new stories involving completely new characters and places that still 'FEEL' like Star Wars. Case in point, Rian Johnson is still scheduled to write up a NEW trilogy of films with characters that are removed from the Skywalker family drama. That plus the fact each of the directors for the ST has had so much freedom with the story (RJ literally talks about deciding who Rey's parents were by making a list and going through the story potential for each option) and the fact that Star Wars being a family drama wasn't always the plan when Lucas first wrote the adventures of Starkiller leads me to the following conclusion

The Point of the Star Wars Saga (as begun by Lucas) has become a tale about the lives of the Skywalker family. However...current day Lucas Films do NOT appear to want to make the majority of their future stories be ABOUT this one family in a vast universe. The sequel series is not going to conclude with all conflict coming to an end...not even the conflict between light and dark. Why?

1. Maz said it herself in TFA....darkness, tyranny, evil will never completely go away...it will just change forms and wear new faces.
2. RJ said it himself...Kylo is wrong for wanting to destroy the past, and Luke was wrong for trying to avoid it...though Luke came around in the end and embraced it.

What is more likely (IMHO) is a Jedi Order inspired by Luke's final act. A Luke who didn't come to save Kylo Ren's soul, but also didn't come to kill him. An order that inspires and works with the people of the galaxy instead of standing apart and above. An order that will try to teach the fallen (Strike me down and I will always be with you...just like your father), but is also prepared to stop them should they choose to continue their evil.

By the end of 9, I am betting the last of the Skywalkers will have little impact on the future of the galaxy. His parents and uncle, on the other hand, will be credited with with leading/training/inspiring not just our primary heroes, but so many more to not only learn from past mistakes, but push forward through all the stumbles and set backs to build a better tomorrow. Basically....I'm expecting the Skywalkers to be like the First ones of Babylon 5...the last of an old guard stepping aside to allow the younger to rise and forge their own future.

 

If that is their thinking then I would say they fundamentally misunderstand what the property they own is about.

The Star Wars Episodic Saga is about the Skywalkers. That though is just one series set in one very specific era. They can tell stories anywhere or anywhen that have nothing to do with those events.

 

It wasn't always about the Skywalker family. Here:

https://sfdebris.com/videos/special/herosjourney.php
http://sfdebris.com/videos/special/shadowsjourney.php
http://sfdebris.com/videos/special/hermitsjourney.php

So it's of no surprise to me that the Skywalker episodic saga is coming to an end. I mean they have Rian Johnson and the directors from Game of Thrones working on non-Skywalker saga films (at least one of which is a TRILOGY), whether people agree or not, the writing seems to be on the wall. Time for the Skywalkers to end, and new heroes and stories beyond them to rise.

 

Again that is just saga in the GFFA that Lucas created. There is no need for the Skywalkers to "end" as such. So as we've seen with the ST they seem to fundamentally not understand how Star Wars works or in their minds they have to stop the Skywalker story in the fiction to tell people that other movies in future won't be about then.

Very odd thinking on their part but one that does give insight into their lack of understanding on how to make the movies.

 

This is interesting though; Vader is in no position of power in ROTJ, he has given up on turning Luke to his side and trying to overthrow Palpatine - this makes sense insofar as Luke would rather die than join him, and that's the crux of ESB: Vader is psychologically shattered by that. But there's little altruism to his actions on the DSII - he has been roundly beaten in combat, and should Luke die and Palpatine succeed in crushing the Rebellion at Endor... what use is there for Vader? His drive then to turn back is identical to his drive to fall: to save a loved one. If in ROTS, Palpatine was torturing Padme, you don't think he would have done the same thing at the expense of his own life? Of course he would: his quest for power is given a backseat by Lucas to his drive to save his loved ones. Palpatine conveniently manipulates someone who has had a warped, disrupted childhood and preys upon those fears... Vader's quest to rule the galaxy is always couched in doing it with his family.

Furthermore, the actions on the Death Star II do not influence the rest of the activity, which is effectively about shooting things and blowing them up yet again, and the typical success method in Star Wars: fall ass-backwards through scenarios and triumph (this is of course examined in ESB and then brutalized with glee in TLJ). Yes, there is the will of the Force, but it's still about blowing stuff up. Vader has been softened in this film so he's an easy target - throwing his saber and taunting Luke about Leia is about the only nasty things he does by this stage.

A good story finds ways to organically resolve itself as a whole, so lumping it under "well the DSII plot is the real one" means we've got an awful lot of set dressing. While Luke works through a process of taking the Yoda methodology of focused, single-minded, non-aggression to resolve both the Jabba and Emperor problems, in both cases a vital part of the solution is about opening cans of whoop-ass on your enemies. We have to be gratified with a big sword-fight, but would it not be interesting if Luke left his saber off at the point of "You are unwise to lower your defences!"? And ultimately, the end point is a curious concoction in which the Force isn't overtly manifest... Luke throws away his saber because of his values, because he was raised to be a good person... it arguably has more to do with Owen and Beru than Obi-Wan's teachings (let's not forget that Obi-Wan effectively manipulated Luke into wanting to kill Vader with a lie).

That is the interpersonal resolution, but ultimately with the additional 3 prequels Lucas also made the story about the broader state of things, and comes to a curiously limited resolution... one which is identical to the ANH resolution which is that the big dangerous weapon gets asploded. The ST is now asking if that is truly how we solve our problems, if simply killing the bad guys or getting them to turn on each other yields true peace. Johnson introduces a different element as well, which is a villain who has an ideological and iconoclastic bent, which forces the heroes to keep pace and evolve accordingly.

Perhaps in a reductive sense you could say that the trilogies respectively are political, then spiritual, and then ideological. Or perhaps there's a better descriptor for the prequels: conspiratorial. Since the agency of the heroes is a total lie apart from the (ultimately irrelevant) resolution to TPM.

But I don't think Johnson is saying that the Jedi are needed in the sense of Yoda's order. The natural extraction from the Lucas saga is that Luke will herald the, well, Return of the Jedi in the classic sense, but even a casual viewing of those films raises questions. The Jedi are laced with problems, not least of which that they are effectively bureaucrats. They aren't undone because Palpatine is super-powerful and special, it's because he's clever and he's better at their own game than they are - this obviously comes to a head in ROTS when, under pressure, the Jedi interfere with the state. In fact Lucas introduces them as doing the bidding of Valorum. Conversely, how often do we see the PT Jedi in a spiritual context?

Hence, the idea that if the Jedi die the light dies is vanity. So too does this go for the Sith and the dark side. Killing the last bad man does not spell the end of evil, it is inherent, especially when violence has been used to conquer it. That's not a true balance. The prophecy is part of a doctrine of a deeply problematic, troubled, and ultimately deeply stupid order. For the fate of the galaxy to rest on that is ludicrous. For it to influence the activities of the major players is of course fascinating, but then to have Kylo and Luke/Rey break the cycle and find something different is hugely exciting. I can't think of another major instalment in any story of this kind where the hero walks out, thwarts the villains and doesn't shed a drop of blood. The introduction of a non-violent resolution and example is the truest embodiment of what Yoda believed after he had failed to kill Sidious. And so I think the saga of the Jedi becomes one of dogma, challenge, restoration and then reformation. If you can teach kids how belief changes and evolves through the mechanism of Star Wars, well personally I think that's more exciting, and more valuable than another "good beats evil because love" story.

 

Historically it has been shown to be a mistake to remove the "focal Family" from a dramatic movie or TV series. It's has never fared well post the decision to go in a "New direction". It's much like the daytime TV series, that went on for many decades following the same central family. The same goes with many of the longest running prime time TV series. They all followed a single family or close nit group of characters, but once they decided to go in a different direction the series would often times end within that same season. Star Wars up to this point has followed the same program, but now that they appear to be leaving the core family behind I suspect the profitability of the name Star Wars will drastically fall. Once the Skywalkers are gone, what's the cohesion for the series. Do you really think simply slapping the Star Wars badge on any movie will make it successful. I personally don't understand the logic, and wouldn't risk the massive amount invested in the franchise on fans simply following the title without any of the substance. It's like getting a beautiful cake only to cut into it to find there's meatloaf under the frosting.

 

Rogue One is a good start.

 

RO used a massive amount of Star Wars story elements to tie it into the main saga. Yes it added a lot of different and new characters, and plot devices, but they always seemed to tie into an element of the original Star Wars (IV). IMHO It fit the Saga better then TLJ.

 

...well yeah, the film is literally a prologue to ANH. While TLJ consciously breaks the mold.

 

Rogue One still had a Skywalker in it.

 

R1 and TLJ are very different movies, though. R1 was strictly complimentary to the saga films. While I loved the movie, and am very happy it was made (and that it was great) If R1 was not made, it not would affect any other Star Wars movie. TLJ, on the other hand, broke new ground, rather than "played the hits." I think both things have their place in Star Wars. TFA, of course, "played the hits" while introducing us to this new era. R1 "played the hits" and expanded the frame of the story a bit. TLJ was the first one to really try and do something different. And, as expected, it ruffled some feathers. Fans want something new, except when they really don't. Or rather, they really might, but quite often, they have a specific flavor of "new" they want. Don't take my comments here to mean that everyone has to love TLJ. Of course not. When someone tries something new, a genuine negative reaction is bound to happen among some. Not everyone likes the same thing in their Star Wars. I don't 100% love everything in TLJ.

In the end, it's up to each of us to determine if the Star Wars we're getting is for us. The ST and the spin-offs so far are for me, at least so far. I was still a Star Wars fan during the prequel era, but not nearly as engaged as now. And the EU left me completely cold. very year or so, I'd try to read an EU novel, and the vast majority of the time, I found the books to me of mediocre quality at best. But some folks LOVED the PT, and some folks ate, breathed, and slept the old EU. So there ya go.

 

What are the chances of getting two Orders by the end of the trilogy? What if we get whatever Rey creates, as well as an altered Knights of Ren? In the past we had the Jedi and the Sith, both extreme ends on the Light and Dark spectrum of the Force, with the Jedi being mostly passive and inactive, and the Sith being pure evil and power hungry.

Maybe Rey could create an Order with a philosophy not unlike the Guardians of the Whills, one that acknowledges the Force's darker aspects. While Kylo, remorseful and motivated to clean up his mess (for whatever reason), leaves with his Knights to destroy the remnants of the First Order still lurking in the shadows after they collapse at the end of IX.

IDK I really want more dark side factions in the SW verse besides Sith-likes.

 

We've just had the entire Rebels series. It did a pretty good job of being Star Warsish. If I was going to criticise Rebels, it wouldn't be for the lack of Skywalkers.

It is risky walking away from the Skywalkers. Absolutely. It's tough to gain the enthusiasm for a new cast.

So, we get Solo, which may turn into a series if it works out.
We get two new movie series being constructed by very smart people.
We get at least two new TV series developed again by very smart people.

Some of these may bomb. They might not click with the fans. But they've gotta try.

 

Perhaps there will be no 'Orders' just people of similar minds working together. No Jedi robes and temples, no dogma...just scholars and warriors coming together to share what they've learned before moving on to other issues.

 

He was referring to Leia.

It does look like they are retooling the concept of the Jedi for a new generation. What that structure will look like probably won't be addressed in this trilogy. 9 has a lot of ironing out to do to make this set of movies somewhat coherent, and that should be all it has time to accomplish with a probable runtime of 2 hours approx 30 minutes. Unless they try to cap if off with an extended runtime to end the saga. I can't see them coming up with all that while trying to conclude the resistance first order conflict. Perhaps we will get a montage like in the special edition of ROTJ ending showing us various force users doing things out in the galaxy.

I don't know if anyone remembers the Dark horse comics about the Jedi of the old republic or not, but it introduced a less organized concept of Jedi journeyman assigned to whole sectors of space that kept an eye on things alone or with a couple of other Jedi. They operated more or less on their own accord and had a community type approach, which I thought was cool as opposed to having a couple of lightsaber toting weirdos in robes show up from out of nowhere to settle disagreements and then return to space.

 

I hope Rian does a completely fresh trilogy about the broomboy. They will earn tons of money by selling toys as soon as the kid gets a fancy name!

 

I'm hoping Rey and Kylo have a baby or we discover Luke has a son. Something like that to keep the Skywalker line alive. Just seems a complete waste to kill it off when so many fans care about it.

As far as the Jedi, I think where they are going is to make the Jedi a spiritual belief rather than a religion. In their view all religion is bad, thus it's time for the Jedi to end. Which is crap IMO. Random dark an lightsiders forever fighting each other sounds lame.

I was hoping to see some grey Jedi/users like Bendu. That would be fresh at least. And I'm holding out hope Rey and Kylo are reincarnations of the first two force users, who were brother and sister. Not sure what the point of that would be though. This is a pretty negative post because I don't have any faith they will do anything cool or interesting with force users. Like others have said, I think they want to just make the force a superpower and SW just like Marvel. That seems to be the plan.

 

Hey now, there is no comparison. The MCU is tight with regards to character and world building. The stories keep getting bigger and the stakes higher. Infinity War beat the wheels off TFA and TLJ in my opinion. I saw stuff there and went to worlds unimaginable, and Ebony Maw used the hell out of the force fighting Iron man. As I watched it with my jaw hanging open I thought to myself: I used to feel this way watching Star Wars. Kennedy should take a page outta the MCU play book on how to turn the volume up on a sci fi action adventure movie

 

SW isn't Marvel, it needs a focused singular vision to work. Especially for the saga films. And I think this will increasingly be a problem, as the canon and lore are more loosely followed going forward.

Think about the six films and the Clone Wars series. It all worked so well because there were clear ideas about the Sith, Jedi, and the force. But TLJ made a mess of all that. I hope they will try to get the movies more aligned with the canon going forward, but I suspect the problem will just get worse and worse until SW is just a ruined mess.

 

The force users have always been the most interesting part of SW to me. They are what separates SW from other sci fi movies, not the only thing but a big thing. So far, the non saga movies have been largely absent of the mystical elements. With the RJ trilogy, it sounds like they are moving it away from the force elements.

What are the predictions for where the SW universe goes with IX and after? A lot of it, I think, depends on what IX does. Will this be the last Saga movie? If so, will it be the end of focusing on the Jedi, sith, or other force users? Will the saga continue and be the focus on the mystical elements while other movies branch out? I hope that we get a good mix of "normal" SW characters but don't lose the laser swords and force power elements that hooked so many of us when we were kids.

 

With how the ST has treated the legacy of the Jedi after RoTJ, it’s not a very good setting to springboard a bunch more force users and saber clashes.

I hope once the ST finishes the Jedi, Sith, and other aspects of force users can get much love in tv/film set in Old Republic eras, where saber battles were more common then current film eras.

 

If the next generation of movies takes place in a rough part of the galaxy more casual force users might be interesting. Normal people who can do little tricks but aren´t "wizards".