Force vergence

Does the Council Believe that the dark side and the light side are not merely parts of the Unifying Force? The Living force distracts and holds us to the present, forcing a choice between Jedi and Sith? If anger is aroused at an evil done to an innocent, that retribution should be emotionless?
Rational thought says that the the circumstances determine the outcome.
-Turanis

PCC edit: Welcome to the boards. You found the area of the board that does not discuss Star Wars. Perhaps visiting the Films section would gain you a better response.

 

LOCK?

 

Uh, can you rephrase that to make your point clearer?

 

Your sorcerer's ways don't frighten us.


Does the Council Believe that the dark side and the light side are not merely parts of the Unifying Force?

No, they don't. The way I think the Force is viewed by the Jedi is sort of a four-dimensional thing. There's the Force, which has a good side and a bad side, and it also both controls your destiny (the Unifying Force) and obeys your commands (the Living Force).


The Living force distracts and holds us to the present, forcing a choice between Jedi and Sith?

Makes sense to me.


If anger is aroused at an evil done to an innocent, that retribution should be emotionless?

Absolutely. What's the point of retribution if you're equating yourself with what you're opposing?

 

I get the feeling that the Jedi view the Force in a simplified sort of traditional metaphysics. In fact, the whole dichtomy of the Force strikes me as quite Taoist.

Taoist metaphysics goes something like:

WuJi(meaning Infinite Ultimate, the Void, Emptiness)---> TaiJi(Great Ultimate or Supreme Ultimate, the Cosmos, the Universe) -----> LianYi(This is the interplay of Yin and Yang, dark and light, hard and soft etc)-----> the Ten-Thousand Things(all things, creatures).

So, to me, I get the impression that Jedi metaphysics goes something like:

The Unifying Force ---> The Living Force -----> Dark Side and "Light" Side(the so-called Light Side is never named in the films so I think it's worth questioning if it exists or if the relationship of the Dark Side to the Force is like Yin and Yang at all really and if it isn't something else perhaps more akin to Abrahamic metaphysics) -----> All material beings.

I think one could easily make the case that the dark side isn't necessarily inherent to the Force itself. Not with GL's cancer analogy in place.

 

The light side is named in the films, it's called the "good side".

 

By Luke, no Jedi Master says anything of the "light side" or "good side" except to call it "the Force."

 

However, Yoda doesn't correct him when he asks "How can I know the good side from the bad?"

 

Wouldn't this imply though by your reasoning that the Dark Side is technically called 'the Bad Side'?

"Twisted by the Bad Side, Young Skywalker, has become"

Daft-Vader

 

He was a Padawan and had bigger fish to fry than correcting Luke's metaphysical misunderstanding. The practical lesson is that one uses the Force correctly when one is calm and at peace.

Of course, from this alone one could easily read it not even as a clear metaphysical division but rather a reference to temptation to misuse power. It's like political power, there's a dark side to that but it's not strictly speaking literally got a dark side and a side that's not dark. Nothing tangible like, say, the shadowed side of a mountain. Or the dark side of the moon. The dark side of the Force doesn't have to be that there's corrupted energy, it could easily be that there's merely a temptation to abuse the power of the Force.

However, never do the Jedi Masters speak of a "light side," only the dark side and "the Force." Even if there is a "light side" it likely operates in harmony with the Force as a whole while the dark side is out of balance with the whole of the Force. Hence the cancer analogy.

 

I see the Force as a balance between the self and the greater. Yoda suggests that the Force not only controls our actions, but also obeys our commands.

If the self becomes the primary focus, the Dark Side will manifest itself, because the desire for control and power will dominate. This is where the Sith operate from.

On the other hand, constantly looking to the future and the past and ignoring what you're feeling now, is also an imbalance as it doesn't acknowledge the living force, the here and now. This can also lead to the dark side gaining traction, as it leads to not seeing what's going on right under your nose. This is where the PT Jedi were IMO.

 

^I can agree with that to an extent.

 

For one thing, as has been said, Yoda doesn't contradict Luke's usage. Also, in the ROTJ script Ben calls it the "good side", and he has Jedi Master status.

 

I'm just saying there's no Manichean cosmic split of equivalence between the so-called "light side" and the dark side because the "light side" is the holistic view of the Force... it takes into account the Force et al, where as the dark side is this small little boxed in thing. Contrary to Sidious' speil to Anakin in ROTS, the dark side is not a larger view of the Force.

Jedi Masters don't speak of the "light side" in the films because the "light side" is identified with the Force as a whole while the dark side of the Force is this extremely limited view of the Force and the possibilities it offers. And this is backed up in the ANH novelization.

 

Then that's not the dark side of the Force. It's the "dark side" of the use of the Force. Which would make a phrase like "use the dark side" redundant.

 

It would only imply that both sets of terms can be used. Good/Light and Evil/Dark/Bad. The terminology is just the name that the Jedi and Sith have applied to attempt to describe something far greater than themselves anyway. I mean, if they wanted, they could go back to using the Ashla vs. Bogan terminology from the early drafts.

As has been pointed out by Fenn, Ben speaks of the good side in the script for RotJ. This reference is also found in the Rotj novelization:

Ben shook his head remorsefully. 'I also thought he could
be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is
more machine, now, than man - twisted, and evil.'
Luke sensed the underlying meaning in Kenobi's statement,
he heard the words as a command. He shook his head back at
the vision. 'I can't kill my own father.'

 

None of which negates my point... the balance of the Force is not between light and dark as they are not cosmic archetypes like yin-yang by GL's own statements. The "good side" is like symbiosis and the "dark side" is like cancer. Cancer is a disease that is unrestrained growth, it's out of balance in itself. symbiosis is sort of the very definition of ecological balance and harmony. The "good side" is this and the Force itself is this... hence the Jedi preference for referring to what they do as "using the Force" while the Sith "use the dark side."

I'm not saying there's no "light side" in the realm of dualistic manifestation, I'm saying the light side isn't some component of the Fore so much as it is the manifestation of being in balance with the Force holistically versus the dark side which is inherently out of balance with the Force and NOT a holistic view of the Force as is in the case in the ANH novelization.

 

After ROTJ, the dark side still exists, and yet the Force is in balance. The balance does refer to light and dark, but I'm not saying that balance means they must be equally prominent.

The same novelization refers to the dark side as a part of the Force.

 

Not recognizing the dark side is also a limited view of the Force, because the light is in some ways defined by the dark. The dark elements will always be there, it's just the way of things. The Force becomes out of balance and a perversion when that dark consumes the light and becomes too dominant.

 

I think the idea is that the Jedi see their view of the Force as being the holistic all embracing view while the dark side is an insular view of the Force. The Jedi have to acknowledge the dark side, because if they don't they won't see it's influence coming. Now, this could easily define the Jedi Council as of the Clone Wars. "Hard to see the dark side is" and all that. They were ignoring it at their peril, but that's not the way the Jedi see the Force. Primarily because of what defines the operation of the dark side and how it is accessed and how it corrupts individuals. It's egotistic and increases egotism.

The very nature of the Force breaks down the barriers between things, all things are connected and every action effects every being through this life-energy web called the Force. It puts everything in a binding oneness. The "light side" of the Force adheres to this by its very nature... which drives home even more the point of the problem of the Jedi Order locked away in their Jedi Temple with policies that distance themselves so far from common people that they just can't relate in any way and take babies from families never to be seen again. Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the lightest of Jedi we've ever seen, had a much larger view of the Force than any Jedi in the PT. And it is through him that Yoda and Obi-Wan rectify their view of the Force and the world and thus lay the foundations for a reborn Jedi Order in Luke Skywalker.

Like I said, if GL's analogy stands of symbiosis/cancer as being the operating mechanic behind light/dark, then the light itself is most in tune with the the Force proper. It's a holistic view and can reconcile itself with the dark side... we know, in fact, that rectifying with the dark side is a key component of the Jedi Trials. Individually one has to confront one's fears and overcome them... and not via fighting and confrontation... but through embracing them and accepting them. This is obvious from Yoda telling Luke he would not need his weapons in the cave on Dagobah and Luke seeing himself under Vader's mask.

Perhaps I'm not being clear, I'm not saying the light side doesn't exist... I'm saying it's not equal to the dark side metaphysically. I'm saying it, the light side, is that component of the Force in the dualistic manifest realm that is in harmony with the Unifying Force or the Force as a whole. Hence why the Jedi have a tendancy not to name it the "light side" in opposition to the dark side, because the light side embraces the whole and the dark side is part of that whole. The dark side, on the other hand, is inherently out of balance with the Force as a whole because of its nature. It is concerned only with itself and accruing more power to itself, as are the adherents to the dark side ideology. There's nothing to suggest that there can be "too much" light side of the Force in the films. The Jedi are concerned with balance and with justice... and their conception of justice cannot be merely its manifestation socially but also metaphysically. Justice itself is synonymous with balance... justice means putting things in their proper places or their proper order. It doesn't necessarily mean exactly equal.

In fact, I would suggest that the relationship of dark and light in the FOrce and to the Force is not a horizontal scale, but vertical. With the "light" emanating downward from THE Force and growing increasingly less intense. It is by light that things become known and in darkness things are unknown... we are ignorant of them. The Jedi Code is "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge."

Furthermore, the question of the dark side, the Bogan, could come back to what GL meant by "paraforce" in the early drafts. Did he mean it in the sense of parallel

 

How can anger, a natural human trait be denied the Jedi? Every religion or philosophy makes these distinctions. Luke defeated Vader when his anger and protectiveness were provoked. Yet he brought balance to the Force supposedly. -T

 

Anger and fear are catalysts to getting things done. If there was no fear, we'd all be walking into dangerous situations all over the place. The thing is to not allow those things to consume you. I don't know if the Jedi always conveyed this distinction all that well with their talk about fear and anger leading to the dark side. It all seemed a bit ... absolute...

 

Anakin brought balance to the Force.

 

And it was actually Luke's refusal to give into his anger, rather than the anger itself, which was probably the catalyst for Anakin doing this.

 

There's appropriate and inappropriate anger.

Anger can give you courage, but it can also turn you into a tyrant. Anger can motivate you stand up against injustice, but taken too far it becomes personal and will no doubt corrupt you.

There are quite a few prophetic sayings in Islam that demand anger be controlled or restrained. In fact, it is said that true manliness/chivalry lie not in prowess in fighting but in the ability to control anger. There's a tradition of Muhammad's son-in-law 'Ali fighting on a battlefield and his opponent spitting in his face. He sheathed his sword in the midst of the fight because his anger was provoked at this man and when asked he said he was the Lion of God not the lion of passions amongst other things... the guy that spit in his face actually converted at that point because of Ali's chivalry. It's actually quite a similar situation to when Luke had Vader defeated in ROTJ. Not surprisingly, same result.