Forcer vs Forcer: More Than Meets the Eye

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by snap-hiss, Oct 14, 2004.

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  1. snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 5
    This is a topic that I orgionally touched on in this thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Revenge_of_the_Sith_(Spoilers_Allowed)/b10331/15441000/p1 however I feel it deserves it's own discussion.

    The question is, if Forcers are able to grab and move objects through telekenisis, and also preform the famous "Force push" with the same process, why then when two duel are they not able to continuasly push each other down or simply grab the others lightsaber off his belt or from his grip?

    The answer, as I see it, is that during a lightsaber duel between two Forcers there is a constant unseen test of will throughout the entire affair. Meaning, if one lets his guard down for even a second, losing concentration, he is open to a Force attack. We saw this occur with Obi Wan and Maul when Obi Wan became aggressive and lost his focus Maul was able to push him. Same with Anakin brashly charging Dooku.

    To put even more thought into this idea let's add the element of distance. I think it's safe to say that like our sences of hearing, sight, and smell whos acuteness wanes with distance, use of the Force would also be increasingly more difficult over greater and greater distances. Yoda can pick up the X Wing, but he might not be able to do so if the X Wing were say, half a mile away. The opposite would then also be true, that a Forcer's ability is strongest on their person, therefore it is easier to defend yourself from these types of attacks, and why a much stronger opponant is not able to simply overpower the other and take his saber. Vader vs Luke in Empire for example. Vader is obviously much stronger in the Force than Luke is, and is trying to capture Luke without harming him, so if he were able to just grab his lightsaber out of his hand he certainly would. This theory would explain why.

    Anyone else ever think about this stuff?


    !snap
  2. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    I've never thought about this but its always been a given to me that dueling requires the utmost concentration, especially against a foe as skilled as a Jedi or Sith. I also assume that Force manuevers require a decent amount of concentration and energy to pull off, something that neither combatant can afford to do unless given an opening.
  3. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Anyone else ever think about this stuff?

    Yep...

    I think you're right- there is more going on in a lightsaber battle than is obviously visible; there is a spiritual battle happening on another level at the same time. There's more to a lightsaber duel than glow-in-the-dark fencing!

    Apparently, when the Episode I 3-way lightsaber fight was in the concept stages, there was going to be debris whirling around the three fighters, representing exactly that battle going on while they fought. I think that there are pre-production sketches which show it going on.

    In AOTC, we see something along those lines when Yoda and Dooku have their "wizards duel" before they fight with lightsabers, where Dooku throws everything he can at Yoda, and Yoda demonstrates his superior power by simply defending himself. (Is it harder for a Force-user to stop falling rocks than to pull them down from the roof? I assume that gravity makes a difference, even if "size doesn't matter.")
  4. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I definitely think you're on to something... I haven't given it much thought before.

    But I think that the Jedi just fight more "gentlemanly". It's like the question, can the Jedi also use Sith powers? I think the answer is yes, but they choose not to (as that leads to the DS). Perhaps the Jedi teach that a saber duel should be just that, a saber duel. No Force tricks or telekinesis. It does seem like only the Sith do this. It is the quick and easy path to win a fight using these tricks, and the Jedi are morecontrolled more than that. It would be too easy to give into your anger and push someone down or throw a rock at him, it takes more concentration and thought to physically saber fight. And that's what the Jedi value most of all- control and thought. The Sith value power at all costs, no matter what it takes.
  5. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    Is it harder for a Force-user to stop falling rocks than to pull them down from the roof? I assume that gravity makes a difference, even if "size doesn't matter.")

    Not only gravity, the bad guy is probably pushing the object towards the target as well.
  6. snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 5
    I agree that the Jedi's code of ethics very well might limit such actions in combat, however there has to be more going on. If it were strictly ethics holding the Forcers back then the Sith would be doing it all th time. Like I stated before Vader would have grabbed Luke's saber, maybe not right away as I'm sure he wanted to test him a bit, but he would have done it before he resorted to throwing debris at him. And I'm sure Maul in all his zeal to kill Qui Gon and Obi Wan would have done more of it.


    !snap
  7. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    This is brought up in the Annotated Screenplays. While writing the ESB fight between Luke and Vader, Vader's "new" telekenetic powers were discussed. If he had them, why didn't he use them against Obi-Wan in ANH? It was decided that Obi-Wan was stronger than Vader, and was therefore blocking his atempts at any other attacks with the Force. GL and crew decided Obi-Wan was like a level six, Vader a level 4, and Luke a level 2 Force user at this point. So that was their explanation to themselves at least about that.

    -sj loves kevin spacey
  8. Tester Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 1
    Perhaps Darth Maul wasn't that powerful? He used a lot of physical ability and anger/agression to overcome his advisaries.

    Just a thought.


    This could effect what fighting style a Jedi could learn.
  9. Order66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2004
    star 1
    You can assert that the Force use during a lightsaber duel happens, but you can't prove it.

    A swordsman would use any and every means at his disposal to win a combat if his life depended on it. Tie their shoe laces, unbutton snap in the middle of the fight, Force bash a pressure point on the opponent. Even throwing dirt in a person's face is acceptible, though not very gentlemanly. Unfortunately this wouldn't make for an interesting film presence.

    As far as I can recall, Dooku's statement about having to use lightsabers instead of "knowledge of the Force" is the only indication that the Force is not directly used used in the affect of lightsaber play. Even Vader and Maul use telekinesis as an adjunct to their lightsaber strategy (i.e. throwing things), not as a complement to their lightsaber tactics. Given the telekinetic emphasis of the Jedi Force skills, it would seem logical that a Jedi could use telekinesis to give added speed to a slash or to use it to help brace the blade in a block. But again, because of the visual nature of film, that can't be proven.

    EU authors have made all sorts of assumptions about the inner workings of the Force in lightsaber fighting. Mostly the statements are vagaries like, "He used the Force," or "the Force helped him." But the Force helped him/her do WHAT?

    Stover is more successful than other writers in describing Force power with respect to lightsaber fighting because he is a martial artist by training, which allows him to apply the Force to combat consistently without the regular (and ignorant) sword play banter found in most fiction.

    The other thing is that gamers, in their quest for rules and descriptions, create Force powers and ascribe names to them. These powers become more convoluted and derivative, when in its essence the concept of the Force should be philosophically simplistic (and vague). A good writer leaves "magic" vague (but consistent) so the reader can bring his/her own imagination to reading.
  10. snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 5
    This is brought up in the Annotated Screenplays. While writing the ESB fight between Luke and Vader, Vader's "new" telekenetic powers were discussed. If he had them, why didn't he use them against Obi-Wan in ANH? It was decided that Obi-Wan was stronger than Vader, and was therefore blocking his atempts at any other attacks with the Force. GL and crew decided Obi-Wan was like a level six, Vader a level 4, and Luke a level 2 Force user at this point. So that was their explanation to themselves at least about that.

    Very interresting. I had never seen that before, but it makes perfect sense, and fits completely with the theory.

    !snap
  11. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    That gives the duel an interesting layer. Maybe Vader and Ben were having a mental, Force battle as well, each countering the other's Force moves.
  12. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    I got into a friendly argument with a guy at work over this very topic. He thinks force-users can do any force technique at any time during combat, so it bothers him that they don't (besides Maul/Dooku). I've always ascribed to the thoery that lightsaber combat requires too much concentration to combine force attacks AND sabre attacks, unless one is VERY strong in the force.

    I believe Maul and Dooku are both very strong in the force, since Sidious would have very high standards; however, the powers Maul and Dooku can muster in combat are still limited. Maul does one push, while Dooku (who, by my theory, is stronger than Maul) manages to force-immobilize Anakin for a split second before cutting his arm off, then collapse stuff onto Obi and Ani while fighting Yoda.

    I also think we will see Obi and Ani mix force attacks and saber attacks during The Duel, since they are two of the most powerful Jedi ever.
  13. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence- never for attack."

    I don't think we're going to see any Jedi using the Force to attack, especially not Yoda or Obi Wan.

    Bear in mind that all Yoda does when fighting Dooku (before the lightsabers come out) is defend himself- arguably proving himself the more powerful/knowledgable, but still achieving no more than a stalemate.
  14. snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 5
    I've always ascribed to the thoery that lightsaber combat requires too much concentration to combine force attacks AND sabre attacks, unless one is VERY strong in the force.

    I feel it's more a matter of the attacker not being able to use the Force directly against the defender if the defender is concentrating and maintaining focus, or unless the attacker is simply much more powerful.

    !snap
  15. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    " Bear in mind that all Yoda does when fighting Dooku (before the lightsabers come out) is defend himself- arguably proving himself the more powerful/knowledgable, but still achieving no more than a stalemate. "


    Also bear in mind that Yoda is totally entrenched in the force during his entire encounter with Dooku from beginning to end, due to his very advanced aged. This is evidenced by his heavy breathing and limping when walking towards the fallen Jedi.
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