Form VII Juyo

Discussion in 'Literature' started by MandaloreWarrior77, May 7, 2008.

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  1. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    This has been a frustrating topic for me. First and foremost I'm talking about "Juyo" not "Vaapad". I was and have been wondering how is juyo suppose to look like? I mean you can only get so far in understanding it with an explanation like this:

    Intrepid, somewhat direct movements were used in combination with advanced techniques involving Force-powered jumps and very fast motions. Form VII did not appear quite as fancy as Form IV, as there were not as many moves like twirling and flipping, but the technical requirements were much higher. Vaapad used seemingly free-wheeling and open movements, but with utter control on the part of the wielder. The end result, if practiced correctly, was a very unpredictable lightsaber style. The staccato swings and flow of the form made it seem as if the attacks were not linked?but in reality, it was merely confusing the opponent.

    This leaves much to the imagination as to what it actually means and is too much of a broad explanation. Moreover it might be better if we knew what Juyo is suppose to be based off in real life. We have Makashi co-relating with fencing. Personally i think it kind of sounds like medieval sword fighting or modern competitive fencing, but hey I could be wrong. Another thing is how is Maul suppose to be a practitioner of Form VII? It didn't really look like it from watching Episode I.
  2. Darth_wanderguard Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2005
    star 6
    Well, if Maul's saber style is any indication, I would say Juyo is somewhat similar to Shaolin broadsword technique, considering the fact that the Episode I duel is an almost move-for-move replication of a three-person Shaolin weapons form.
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    From what we saw with Maul and mace, it seems that it involves lots of upward and downward circular strikes and circular motions.
  4. SuperSaiyaMan12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    You're seriously comparing Shaolin into that basic 'flash fest' of a Lightsaber?
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Not this again.

  6. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
  7. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    I'm sure he means that the lightsaber fighting in Episode I is based off Shaolin broadsword fighting. That would be like comparing Form II to fencing and Form VII to whatever it is.
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Form VII is Jeet Kune Do with a lightsabre if you ask me. No predictable moves, an anything-to-win fighting philosophy, not even any standard stances-it's a fit, IMO.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do

    And since the guy who first said Mace was a Form 7/Vaapad/Juyo user was Matt Stover in Shatterpoint, who has trained in a variation of JKD, I'm going with the idea that the similarity is not a total coincidence. :p

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Stover
  9. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
  10. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yep. Wikipedia is your friend. :p
  11. Darth_wanderguard Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2005
    star 6
    I just did, didn't I? :p

    The similarity isn't a coincidence. Isn't Ray Park a forms champion or something?
  12. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Bruce Lee, and thus JKD was heavily influenced by European boxing and fencing. Although the backbone concepts (such as centerline, vertical punching, and forward pressure) come from Wing Chun, Lee stopped using the Wing Chun stances in favor of what he considered to be more fluid/flexible fencing and boxing stances.

    This was from the wikipedia page provided by DarthBoba.

    So, if we're using JKD as a base, I guess I wasn't too far off from saying Form VII had some modern fencing techniques in it?
  13. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Yeah, he was a champion for a bit.
  14. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Yes, after looking into it, Form VII is Jeet Kune Do with a lightsaber. That would explain how Mace, Maul, and Sora all practiced juyo yet had their own style.
  15. Suzuki_Akira Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    As far as I know, JKD isn't really a martial art in the conventional sense. There isn't really a concentrated technique set, I'd imagine the core of it is just an approach to fighting, many facets of which are found in other arts. Nevertheless, I would be very surprised if there were forms in JKD, which is generally how technique sets are passed. I would consider the Shaolin broadsword idea more likely, although I don't know how a broadsword set would translate to a two sided saber - and most kung fu forms I've encountered in my training are one or two person, not three(although it's possible).
  16. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    I'm not disagreeing with you so just hear me out. I would believe that form VII is Jeet Kune Do because the description for Form VII states:

    1. (seemingly free-wheeling and open movements, but with utter control on the part of the wielder. The end result, if practiced correctly, was a very unpredictable lightsaber style. The staccato swings and flow of the form made it seem as if the attacks were not linked?but in reality, it was merely confusing the opponent.)

    as well as:

    2. (Form VII required intense focus, a high degree of skill, and mastery of other forms.)

    I'm not sure how you could have a technique set for this. I would assume that form VII would incorporate the most important aspects of the other forms and combine them at the users discretion while implementing the principles stated in qoute 1. The principles of form VII I see also have correlation with Jeet Kune Do:

    JKD practitioners believe that techniques should contain the following properties:

    * Efficiency - An attack that reaches its mark
    * Directness - Doing what comes naturally in a learned way.
    * Simplicity - Thinking in an uncomplicated manner; without ornamentation.


  17. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
  18. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    (Disclaimer this is about JUYO not VAPAAD)

    Form VII: ?The Ultimate Discipline?, "Way of the Vornskr", or "Ferocity Form"
    Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII. This is the most difficult and demanding of all Forms, but it can eventually lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV. In addition to very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences and free-wheeling movements, making the Form highly unpredictable in battle. This trait makes for a much more difficult execution than the graceful, linked move sequences of Form IV. Form VII requires the intensity of Form V, but much greater energy since that focus is wielded more broadly.

    So now what does that all mean? I?m sure people have been wondering this since the forms were brought forth.

    The lightsaber forms are all different aspects of lightsaber combat whether it is offense, defense, precision, acrobatics, or just the basics. They are all pieces of a pie. People might tend to see the forms as just their own arts instead of different aspects. When you practice a singular aspect of sword fighting you develop a philosophy behind it. Just as if you practiced form III for a long time you will become more defensive in your style. All jedi fight differently and with their own unique style. That?s because they take what they need from the forms and apply them together. The forms are just simplified instructions for fully learning all the aspects of lightsaber fighting. Obi-wan has just mastered the defensive aspect of lightsaber combat for example. I?ll take a quote from an older topic on lightsaber forms.

    Plurimus: Date Posted: 3/27/05 10:01pm Subject: RE: Lightsaber Forms
    All sword fighting forms on Earth have ?seemingly unconnected staccato sequences.? In fact, a tempo allows the opponent to know when to attack, so all experienced fencers employ staccato sequences as a matter of course. The outward practitioner of all fencers is ?one of calm? verging on explosion. That?s the very nature of all effective sword fighting.

    Form VII is essentially what we have in today?s martial arts (Jeet Kune Do) and sword disciplines. Form VII is the use of the aspects of Form I-V and using them all in conjunction effectively. This is why you haven?t seen many Form VII masters around. They need to master other aspects of the forms before they can come to understand Form VII. There is no maneuver set for Form VII. Form VII is an improvising form. That?s what makes it unpredictable. Form VII is random and draws its randomness from Forms I-V. You learn control from Form III, offense from Form V, precision from Form II, acrobatics from Form IV, and the basics from Form I. All coupled together using the randomness of the user will make Form VII.

    If one would want to see an example of it in motion one would have to play the Revenge of the Sith video game. Look at how Cin Drallig fights. Before the ?canon cannon? tries to shoot this idea out of the water just listen. Cin Drallig?s moves are just a conglomeration of moves from Anakin, Obi-Wan, Count Dooku, and Mace Windu. His moves are unpredictable and fulfill all the requirements of Form VII.
  19. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Going by that, he could be considered a Juyo user. The EU hasn't said much about him, so it's up in the air even though the wook says otherwise(which in his case, they could change that if anything else about him is revealed.)
  20. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    I understand that, but the context of my post doesn't revolved around Cin Drallig. It just uses him as an example for a larger idea.
  21. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    I'm aware of all that.
  22. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Sorry, I just wanted some feedback on my idea. I would like to know if it seems legitimate.
  23. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    No worries bud. Your ideas seem pretty legit to me.
  24. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    I just wanted to finally end any confusion regarding Form VII. Mace Windu in the ROTS video game had virtually none of the characteristics of juyo in his move set. It looked more on the lines of samurai sword fighting where as Cin's move list truly exemplifies the principles of juyo.
  25. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    I've found another source which, just being speculation looks like a more promising view of the forms in a real life application.


    http://www.nyjedi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28227&sid=a7829f93502566da4dad504feab6f61d


    I like what this site had to say about Form VII:

    Form VII
    Here I would say European Longsword combat, ie Liechtenauer or Fiore. Emphasis on action as opposed to reaction, attacking through the attack in to the attacker. Could also be akin to Bujutsu sword styles, again for the similar reasons above. Last option, Latosa Escrima/Escrima Concepts. Again an efficient and direct system, with the emphasis on action not reaction, with no blocks or defences, rather interferance strikes (an attack that prevents the opponents attack on the way into the opponent).

    The enemy's blade is in only one location. That means there are other locations where striking will ensure victory. You attack from all sides - either with your saber through speed and feints; or with your body - pummeling the opponent. It is not so much about strength, but speed. You may never make contact on hits, because as you move to attack, he moves to defend, and the strike becomes meaningless, so you go elsewhere.

    The blade is a weapon, but it is a part of you, a greater weapon. Strike with your hands, feet, head, whatever is available to you. Make him realize he must defend all angles, and he will be limited in his options.




    I was also wonder which book has a better explanation of form VII: Shatterpoint or the Ep III novelization?
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