Saga Fortune's Gate ... Brand new chapter posted 2/19/13!!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction- Before, Saga, and Beyond' started by geo3, Jan 6, 2009.

Moderators: Briannakin, mavjade
  1. dietcokeani Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 1
    Gunray's Lawyer says....
    As to the Jedi...well, I can't help it, I see them as small minded, arrogant, and to a large degree immoral. Immoral in the sense of having no idea of Truth(deliberate capital) or of the fundamental worth of individuals. Instead, they have a vaguely nihilistic philosophy which boils down individual near meaninglessness. As I said long ago on a different thread, the Jedi are the secondary villans of the Prequels. They prepare the ground so that all of Anakin's bad choices in ROTS look more than a little reasonable to a stressed out, misunderstood and misused young man.

    I'm with you on that thought. I've always found them interesting, but didn't get why people didn't see them as "secondary villans". Your paragraph really puts into words what I've been trying to express for years...thanks!

    I think this latest installment shows it again in the interchange between Obi-Wan and Amidala when she learns of Anakin's dumping back to Tatooine by the Jedi. I can't even imagine their justification for acting so uncaringly. Ug.

    As to the story, I like this version of events better than the book's. At least Amidala and Obi-Wan are talking in paragraphs instead of sound bites, and it shows their character in a deeper, more involving way. I'm really enjoying this story! Thanks, Geo!
  2. Ocelotl_Nesto Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2004
    star 4
    Collective visions eh? Scaredy cat council I say. I think I know who saw a ghost... heh heh

    great post! thanks for the PM
  3. darth_treyvah Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2005
    star 3
    I wonder who will find Anakin first -- Padme's people, or Dooku?

    This, of course, is assuming that a certain scheming hooded Sith Lord doesn't already know where Anakin is, and what he is doing ...

    *Steeples fingers*
  4. MoAngel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 2
    The Jedi are arrogant and fearful, yet they preach to 'let go' of your fears, and they go and send Anakin back to Tatooine because they are afraid of him? I like seeing how things are progressing on Coruscant, but let's get back to Anakin and his cult followers. I can't wait til they all meet up and see that Anakin is better than all of them. This is just like your 'Ring of Fire', I can't get enough and when I do, it just makes me want more! LOL!
  5. ratna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2007
    star 4
    Naïve Padme. Arrogant Jedi. Secondary villains, even. Oh, my.

    It seems that we are talking about flaws in these characters that hinder them from choosing optimally in the arena of ethical action. But how do we define that arena?

    The most common definition used in modern (Anglo) Western culture is that of the juxtaposition of the needs, rights and wishes of the individual vs the needs, rights and wishes of the group. I consider that, depending on context, ?group? may be defined as family, community, country, or even humankind in general, and includes the LAWS and MORES (rules of engagement) of the group. But, in any of these iterations of the basic ethical paradigm, the group is an anonymous collective. It is not made up of individual beings. That role is taken by the single individual whose needs, rights and wishes are posed in potential conflict with those of the group. In short, the group becomes a generalization/abstraction that is then accorded a strange personhood to be set in competition with an actual individual being for distribution of benefits. I would venture that the assessment of the Jedi as being immoral because they

    have a vaguely nihilistic philosophy which boils down [the] individual [to] near meaninglessness

    is founded in this modern (Anglo) Western ethical paradigm.

    The modern Western ethical paradigm is the basis for Democracy as we know it, and the implementation of this paradigm, and of Democracy, requires a delicate balancing act between the individual and the group. Reason, not emotion, is considered the most reliable guide in achieving this balance. Under this requirement for balance, reducing the claim of either side (be it the individual or the group) to zero amounts to immoral action. One might say that, in this paradigm, the Jedi seem to err on the side of favoring the collective ? represented by the Force and all living things, and peace and justice, too; while the Sith err on the side of favoring the individual ? represented by their personal ideal of the Ubermensch. Perhaps, in this paradigm, both Jedi and Sith are also immoral because they each in their own way rely on feeling, rather than reason to guide them.

    As for Padme, in this paradigm, her actions would be interpreted as based upon, and striving for, an ideal in which individuals and groups can be persuaded to arrive at the balance point by consensus, without the application of military force. In a world whose actual events do not reflect such ideals, one might well consider her naïve ?

    *

    But are there other definitions of the realm of ethical action, and if so, how would those definitions affect our assessment of the thoughts/motivations/actions of Padme and of the Jedi?

    One alternative point of view is based upon degrees and categories of relationship. Interestingly enough, and perhaps because it is based upon concrete interpersonal relationships rather than abstractions, this POV values feelings and emotions as the guide. This POV is as at least as widespread as the ?modern, Western? one. It is held in common in any culture with Confucian tradition or its echoes or equivalents (most of Asia). It exists also in areas where personal or ?feudal? loyalties are taken seriously, such as the Middle East, the Balkans, and many Latin nations. Tribal cultures ? Americas, Africa, Oceania - also partake of this, in their own unique ways. Interestingly enough, in the West, the relationship paradigm is most clearly articulated by proponents of a Feminist ethic.

    The key difference between the relationship-based paradigm and the Western 'one vs. all' dichotomy lies in the definition of the self. In the Western paradigm, the self is an atom ? the irreducible diamond particle of the individual being. (Even though the frontiers of medicine and biology are showing u
  6. canadianjedimama Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2008
    star 4
    Ohh...interesting. Padme realises that something (or someone ;)) is missing right away. And Kenobi seems to have a bit of a bug in his bonnet with the Council.

    I loved how you reworked the meeting scene there... =D=

    You've already corrected a bunch of canon events I wasn't really that fond of in your first couple of posts here. I can't wait to see what you do with the rest. :D

    CJM
  7. Souderwan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 6
    Wow this has been such a wonderful read so far!!

    I hate having so little time in real life to sit back and enjoy the simple pleasure of reading your brilliant work, but it has been well worth the wait!!

    One of the things I love about AUs is how much fun it is to reimagine scenes from the movies and how they'd play out in our revised universes. I had just been thinking about how things would be playing out with Padme and Obi-Wan given that Anakin was not a part of the picture when you showed me just that! What a fantastic chapter that was! I loved the interaction between them. It was just amazingly done. It felt completely true to the characters--both as we know them at their core, but also as they must be given how differently things had progressed to that point.

    Just brilliant. Everything.

    I am thoroughly enjoying this story. I can't wait to see how Anakin reacts to finding who he believes to be Padme--and how he reacts when realizes that it's not!

    Anyway, please put me on the PM list. My responses may be slow in coming, but I promise that I will read as often as I can! :D

  8. Mr_Black Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2004
    star 1
    Hi, geo. It's good to drop in on a new landscape chiseled out of a familiar keyboard, after a long time away. Wonderful story you've got percolating here.

    I'm not so in-depth as I used to be (at least not lately), so the reactions I'll be giving are more filet than strip-steak.

    What I like the most of what I've read so far is--similar to your previous work--your sense of the vital necessity for creating and sustaining narrative momentum. Peril must be your second cousin, because the tales you weave have a thick vein of expected and hidden consequences coursing through their essence. Also, you establish and refine the mystery inherent in all fan-fic, and especially those taking place in an AU, by taking familiar pieces (characters, settings, themes), and fitting them into a configuration that is simultaneously allusional and reverent while being separately ponderous, intriguing, and even a little mischievous.

    This fundamental separation from the well-traveled throughline of canon has me more excited and interested in this, your latest story, moreso than any other you've authored. While I was always thoroughly impressed your intuition and skill as a writer, and your insistence on cultivating and improving the craftsmanship of your work even though it was "mere" fan-fiction, I confess to never reading your long-form earlier works to conclusion, since they hewed so closely to the head, heart, and bones of what I had lately seen in the movie theater. My personal feeling about fanfic is concerned with considering and promoting a divergence from what was put to screen, or whatever the original creator's venue was. Given the alternative nature of this story, I don't anticipate such waning this go-round.


    As for shop-talk, two bits of symbolism stuck out as particularly affecting, creative, and memorable. First, I very much enjoyed the ending of the scene depicting the drink shared between Cliegg and Anakin. In two lines you illustrate the foundation of their relationship and the composition of their respective characters. You have them walk away from each other, alone, moving in separate directions. And yet, their cups stay behind on the table, closely sharing a domestic space, leaving identical marks. Distance and intimacy--sometimes occuring within the same situation--are integral components and expressions of Anakin's and Cliegg's characters, and your images of two opposing paths put together with two standing objects are a crisp, poetic observation of who these guys are and how they relate to each other and the world around them.

    Using Obi-Wan's tea cup to provide commentary on his feelings about, and relationship to, Anakin made for a similarly vivid and evocative moment in the story. First having the contents be cold and then absent underscored the dread, pain, and regret central to Anakin's and Obi-wan's inner beings so far.

    My main criticism to this point is your characters having a tendency to dissolve into the background. In the speeder ride through heavy traffic, for example, I can see Yoda down to his shortest ear whisker, but Mace is invisible. The same goes for Typho during his insubordination, and Padme, when she's learning the fate of Anakin. You showcase their feelings and thoughts very well, but what of their expressions and movements?

    On the whole, very well done so far. I'm very much anticipating the coming meeting on Tattooine.

    *****

    As to the whole Padme as naive, Jedi as ineffective/obstinate/bordering on oppressive or repressive: I'd say Padme was naive before and during the events of the TF occupation. Dealing with the sacrifices inherent in wresting your world and way of life away from the harbingers of its philosophical and actual destruction, paired with the aftershocks and compromises demanded by reconstruction, I believe would cause her idealistic illusions--childish or not--to be well and truly shattered in the aftermath of such conflict. Not her ideals themselves, only the belief that most or all others share them. I'd say the adult Padme
  9. Darth_Null Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    I like this story. Like your previous ones, it is seductive to the reader. What I really like is the accurate portrayal of the Jedi. In their wisdom they sacrifice - for good reasons - the training of Anakin for a greater good. This greater good is the need to preserve the Jedi Order in a time of duress. Why add an "unstable element" to their Order by training Anakin? Nothing like the selfless wisdom of warrior monks - abandon the unstable elements to their destiny and preserve the order . . . Well portrayed.
  10. geo3 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    You know the old saying, ?be careful what you wish for?? Well, I wished for discussion. I certainly got it! Thanks, everyone, for chiming in. It?s going to take me all of Sunday to reply, I think...

    First, back to GunraysLawyer, to whom I still owe a reply.

    Padmé...Sorry, but no one can stick anywhere near PT cannon and write her as anything but naive. Though perhaps naive is the wrong word...She thinks that she's a master politician, but she comes across in the scripts, films, novelizations, and thus in almost all PT era fanfic as entirely academic about it.

    ?Naïve? + ?academic? = Neither ruthless or clever enough? hmmm... I?m trying to understand what quality you view as necessary to a politician, that you find lacking in her. I suspect you?re referring to some kind of instinctive savvy, or ?street smarts.? That gut-level, how-do-I-get-what-I-want thinking that in its least developed form has a smart three-year old playing his parents off against one another for a desired gain, and in its most developed form, results in Palpatine... ?

    She has the brains, but not the killer instinct of a Machevellian politician or the cold realpolitik sense implied by that idea. Palpatine does have it.

    OK, so you definitely require that killer instinct in your politicians ? at least in the ones you admire. Got it. :p

    Of course, that is Lucas's point to a degree: Cold, calculating realpolitik bad, nearly unvarnished idealism, and one can hardly call Padmé?s position vis a vis the proposed Republic Military anything else, good.

    Plus, you don?t care for her political philosophy. Got that, too.

    Yet, what is so frustrating is that she sort of figures it out...Dooku seems to be behind it all. Now, your Padme at least resents the Sith/Jedi highhandedness toward her. BRAVO, but she seems to draw no lessons form it about the Republic's government.

    OK, I see. Even in my little AU, she STILL is riding the wrong horse in terms of her political outlook, so no matter what she does, it?s wrong! ;)

    As to the Jedi...well, I can't help it, I see them as small minded, arrogant, and to a large degree immoral. Immoral in the sense of having no idea of Truth (deliberate capital) or of the fundamental worth of individuals. Instead, they have a vaguely nihilistic philosophy which boils down individual near meaninglessness.

    Like the 1950?s Red Menace. Got it! [face_laugh]

    As I said long ago on a different thread, the Jedi are the secondary villains of the Prequels. They prepare the ground so that all of Anakin's bad choices in ROTS look more than a little reasonable to a stressed out, misunderstood and misused young man.

    OK, so, not only do we dislike the Jedi for their quite alien philosophy, but because that philosophy led them to treat badly a favorite character, to whom we relate more than we do to the Jedi. Check!

    Of course, your opinion may vary, and I have spent an inordinate amount of time figuring out and writing about nonJedi force wielders....

    It?s a truly absorbing subject, and the one that keeps me coming back to SW again and again. I enjoy other fandoms, but they lack the particular dynamic presented by the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force, so I?m not really motivated to spend a lot of time on them. Personally, I?ve long been fascinated by religious monasticism in general, and have spent years puzzling about the particular philosophical anomaly inherent in the idea of ?warrior monks,? which I think in some measure describes the Jedi. I do think that politicalization (is that even a word?) of what are essentially spiritual ideas is invariably problematic for all concerned.

    *

    Now, onto this week?s comments.

    yenneffer Really heartbreaking! You managed very well to create an atmosphere on Coruscant- anger, disbelief, and then fear, havoc, haste... Everything was there! Just delicious

    Oh, I am VERY glad you think so!

    I'm glad Obi-wan is willing to widen his mandate- it proves he's actually a thinking being. I always though
  11. GunraysLawyer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2003
    star 4
    Wow, rarely, have I ever received both an intellectual and friendly/humourous eviseration in one thread. ]-} :oops: [face_laugh]

    Perhaps, I shouldn't, but I will respond with four points:

    First, I'd subscribe to Ratna's lecture series as well. Seriously, dense material handled with grace and ease. Most impressive, but I do think that one suspect move is made: equating ethics and morality. They are two substantially different things. To paraphrase my ethics prof in lawschool, Morality is about universalizable truths of right and wrong; ethics is about codes of behavior that may or may not produce adherence to those truths (though they try to do so). An example, the code of ethics that I live under as a lawyer is unconcerned with a number of moral questions, and in fact might require me to do immoral or likely immoral things. To deepen the example, the ethics code that I work under can very easily lead to situations where I am required to lie by co- or omission to any number of people, who (if one subscribes to Martin Luther, et al) have a 'right' to the truth. Immoral? Yes, but ethical in the narrow sense. (Yes, yes, I know that this example can be ripped apart to work backwards against my initial point, but just think about the distinction. ;) )

    Secondly, Padme, Pacifism, and Politics...My objection to pacifism is entirely practical: It fails when faced with an antagonist who doesn't respect the rights of those proclaiming it. Now, before anyone raises Gandhi or Martin Luther King, thik about it. Gandhi achieved, because the British were not willing to do vile things to prevent his success. MLK acheived because he appealed to an existant moral core in the people of his society. An example of the contrary is found in fiction, Harry Turtledove's story "The Last Article" explores Gandhi in a world where by virtue of wining WWII the Nazis are in charge in India. The outcome for good and fairly obvious reasons is entirely different than in reality.

    Third, The Jedi and the greater good: Ok, I am being confronted with an explanation that on the surface smacks of the bluntest form of utilitarianism. The problem is that no one has explained why it is in the interest of the greater good that the Jedi not be destroyed by the Sith. Yes, it is that blunt a problem.

    Also, I must admit to a strong distaste for the greater good sort of reasoning. Simply put, there is no objective way for any single or small group of individuals to determine the greater good via their own reason. There are too many variables. The 20th Century's history is written in the blood of tens of milions whose deaths were required by Hitlerian, Trotskeyite, Satlinist, Maoist, Khmer Rouge or Anglo-American definitions of the greater good. In short, if one subscribes to the idea that what the Jedi did to Anakin here was in the interest of the greater good (i.e. no Vader and No massacre of the Jedi), then one must be prepared to answer the simple question of Why? Why is the staus quo teh greater good? Long run, why isn't the universe better off with a destroyed or destroyed and rebuilt Jedi Order.

    Finally, I think that I should say that the issue is not that Anakin is a favorite character, but what the actions toward him say about the Jedi. They have become small, more than a little closed minded and afraid. As most sentient beings, they are afraid of change. Particularly of catcyslmic change. Frankly, under a greater good anaylsis, he's lucky that they didn't kill him in his sleep. Of course, the fact that they didn't is what will likely make this interesting. ;)

    Well, I expect that this will satisfy no one, and convince others that I am a fool, and barely tolerable. Good, I say. I agree with Chesterton in that tolerance is only a virtue if you don't believe in anything. :) :rolleyes: ;)
  12. Mr_Black Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2004
    star 1
    I did wonder why you vanished

    Vanished is a bit strong, no? I'd say I simply bellied up to a different bar. However, if I'd known my absence was this keenly felt, I'd have certainly left a note, and some hot chocolate (see below).

    Thanks for letting me know.

    Anytime. :)

    Teacups are powerful things.

    Only when they are empty, it seems. In fiction, full teacups simply give somebody something to do with their hands. Empty ones? Well, these can put the past in context and give hints about the future, forestall or accelerate Armageddon, and facilitate an excuse for Anakin's convenient escape to the fresher once lecturing!Obi gets on a roll.

    I prefer hot chocolate. My warm drink of choice seems less laden with the burdens of the universe. ;)

    Fanfic has often been criticized as being a haven for lazy writers

    Please trust me when I say, you are not to be counted among their number. For one, you have a tendency to finish what you start (bless you). That I have yet to be there at the end is not a reflection on you or what you write. Rather, it's simply an indication of my having paid for the plotline of the saga on DVD (and once more on blu ray, as the world turns). Especially given these times, investments must be respected and appreciated. :p

    But it DOES mean that I can dive right in to a story...

    Can dive in, or have to dive in? Word on the street is Peril can be pretty pushy.

    True enough is your belief about knowing what Mace, etc. look like by the time the curtain falls on canon and fanfic, etc. marches from the wings to take the spotlight. I can give you a pass. This time. [face_devil]

    Padmé

    You went ahead and accented the terminal 'e' in her name from my original post, didn't you? o_O

    I'm sensing a pet peeve.

    Since I have no intention--or knowledge to correct--the accenting my 'e's, please accept this gift as a poultice girding against progressive irritation, as well as an apology for going off the reservation of your earlier stories without an explanation:

    [face_coffee] (It's really hot chocolate, no matter what you hear or read to the contrary)



    *****

    Darth_Null, if you'll permit me:

    This greater good [the rejection of Anakin] is the need to preserve the Jedi Order

    I see this as less an act of preservation than an act presaging eventual doom. Both in canon--and, if my instincts are on point, soon-to-be evidenced in this thread--the rejection of Anakin paves the way for Palpatine (or Dooku in the case of this story) to swoop in, snake an arm around Anakin's shoulders, and steer him down a much darker, more foreboding path than if the Order acquiesced to the changes their long prophesied savior would reap upon their traditions and expectations.

    Why add an "unstable element" to their Order by training Anakin?

    I believe Anakin's function, both as a character and as a symbol, is to indicate the vital necessity of instability in life. I've long disagreed with the assertion made in the films that "bringing balance to the force" equates to having Anakin going Rambo on the Sith, paving the way for an unsullied golden age where Evil, having taken one on the chin from the biggest, strongest fist out there, will be eternally abolished. The good Doctor Zoidberg once proclaimed, "Things were bad, but now they're good, forever!" He was premature in this assertion.

    I believe, as a balancer, Anakin's place is embedded with neither the Jedi nor the Sith. The distinction of being chosen by the force, or the energy/essence/potency of the galaxy, permits Anakin to exist outside of these cadres. This doesn't mean he's above or below the two sides, simply apart from them. Put another way, the Jedi and the Sith know and use the force to the extent that they can go on a ride not many people can take. They are the passengers. As the chosen one, Anakin is the pilot. If you're on his plane, whether you like it or not, you're going where he's t
  13. laurethiel1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2003
    star 4
    I would like to further elaborate on what Ratna said earlier, and on some of the responses I've seen.

    First of all, I would like to say one word about the "Western" paradigm. This "one v/s all", "good v/s evil" atomic paradigm is not so much Western in its essence as Judeo-Christian, imported in Europe from the Middle East. To find the core of the Western (Indoeuropean) culture, one has to look more to the Greek myths, the Latin gods, the Norse sagas, the Celtic tales and the Hindu legends, to name a few traditions. In short, one has to take into account the cultures using a language that stemmed from the proto-Indoeuropean roots, at their most ancient manifestation, without the influence of further elements. That it evolved into a different scheme through external contact is a whole different story.

    If I may, I would thus like to add this Indoeuropean paradigm to the ones you have mentioned: the monist paradigm (which has been woefully oversimplified in the history of philosophy).

    In this paradigm, you can find both the atomic paradigm and the relationship paradigm. Let me explain. In the monist representation of the world, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, yet each part is a whole in and of itself. To use another metaphor, one is part of the universe, and one is also a universe. In a sort of paradox, it indicates that one recognises the notion of "greater good" and of sacrifice of the self in front of superior necessity, yet it also aknowledges the fact that, on a reduced scale, one is also the bearer of a complex system of inter-relations.

    What is even more interesting about the core Indoeuropean paradigm is that it often works in subdivisions of the number "three", and is therefore not essentially binary. One such Triad is the social division between the Clercs (representative of the Sacred), the Warriors (representative of Power) and the Producers (representative of Fertility), with more or less mobility between the three, depending of the rigidity of a given society structure (remember that Merlin actually went to war with Arthur). Another is the subdivision of the ruling powers between Priests (legislative branch), King (judicial branch) and Warriors (executive branch), with a definite system of checks and balances involved. Yet another is the multiple facets of womanhood, from Maiden to Spouse to Crone, without being mutually exclusive (you simply don't stop being "daughter of someone" when you become "wife of someone", for example). Also, there is the Triad of the Elements, with Fire, Earth and Water.

    All this to illustrate that in the Indoeuropean principles, there is always a third alternative, a third option to be considered. There is no "this or that", but "this and/or that and/or that".

    And now, you wonder, how is this relevant to this story?

    Well, let me talk of the concept of Balance. I thing that true Balance is achieved when one can reconcile the forces of the external and internal universe, or, in other words, the atomic paradigm and the relationship paradigm. For that, one has to aknowledge that one is strenghtened by their sense of belonging within a community of their choice (the relationship paradigm) yet also tributary to the greater social structure (the atomic paradigm). Here is why the Anakin of this story is very compelling: because he has a social network (as illustrated by his relations to his family, friends and comrades), yet is willing to recognise that there is more "out there", and that he might be called upon to step into the bigger picture.

    As for Padme and Obi-Wan, well, I think that they are, respectively, the representatives of the relationship paradigm and the atomic paradigm, who have an inkling that their vision might not perhaps be altogether complete (Padme wondering as to the real causes of the assassination attempt; Obi-Wan feeling unexpected yearning for his would-be Padawan). Together, they might just be able to move mountains and play a part in bringing Balance about.

    To use a parallel form a well-known myth, I think that in the gr
  14. Mr_Black Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2004
    star 1
    Sir Ben Kingsley is actually half British and half Indian.

    Let me apologize for my ignorance. I haven't seen the movie, truth be told; all I knew for sure was Kingsley being cast as (and, I think, winning an Oscar for) the lead. I've seen the man around in other films--not the biggest fan of his, I admit--and I had not an inkling of his apparent heritage. I type corrected! Thank you for letting me know.

    Anakin will be Arthur, Dooku will be Merlin, Padme will be Guinevere, and Obi-Wan will be Galahad.

    When you say Galahad, do you mean Galahad, or Lancelot? I confess to you once more: The Once and Future King is tied with some book about whaling *cough* "At last the anchor was up, the sails were set, and off we glided. It was a sharp, cold Christmas; and as the short northern day merged into night, we found ourselves almost broad upon the wintry ocean, whose freezing spray cased us in ice, as in polished armor." *cough* as my favorite book-without-pictures of all time. In terms of character parallels, I see Anakin as Lancelot, Obi-Wan as Bors (or maybe Sir Ector), Yoda as Merlyn, Dooku as Dap, and Padme as the Queen of Air and Darkness--oops, that's Gunrays_Lawyer talking--she's more...you know, I see Merlyn in her, too. Arthur and Galahad (the younger, the one who would rather play with holy dolls than Knights) are the odd men out, I think. Hard to believe, considering two of the three wide, tumbling turns of TOFK are engineered by the both of them. If the connections go beyond this particular story of geo's, maybe Luke is Arthur. If you wanted to try and convince me Qui is Galahad, my arm could be twisted.

  15. ratna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2007
    star 4
    laurethiel1138 Of ones and threes, the shaman's journey and the grail. Well. A @};- for your thoughts.
  16. laurethiel1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2003
    star 4
    Mr Black,

    You asked a very interesting question about the parallels between the characters of this iteration of the Star Wars universe and the Arthurian characters.

    By mentioning The Once and Future King, I suppose you are referring to T. H. White's collection of tales. If so, you have to be aware that it is a modern re-interpretation of the Arturian cycle, not unlike Marion Zimmer Bradley's re-imagining. The fundamental difference between both is that Ms. Zimmer Bradley gives the legend a femininst slant, whereas Mr. White's version is tinted by the events surrounding the actual writing (the Second World War). In that respect, it isn't so far off from J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings saga, which was written essentially when the Professor came back home from World War I.

    I will have to be fair and confess that I have not read The Once and Future King, so please correct me if my comments seem off-base. But from what info I've been able to get on the book, it seems to me that the vision of the Arthurian Court as depicted by Mr. White is not quite traditional, with Merlin ageing backwards and Lancelot being a repressed sadist. According to tradition, however, Merlin is actually a very powerful Druid, who has the ability to See into the future, and Lancelot, while greatly tormented by having his wee bit of a crush on the Queen, is fundamentally loyal to Arthur and a clearly moral character. There is no one named Dap, either.

    In Geo3's AU, the reason why I see Anakin as Arthur is because of the revelation around the lightsaber. Excalibur is based on legendary Celtic swords, and the etymology of their names is either "hard steel" or, strangely enough, "lightning sword". Moreover, in this particular setting, he grows up with a surrogate family, a stepfather (Cliegg-Hector) and a stepbrother (Owen-Kay). And he is born of Shmi, who doesn't know how his conception came to be (Arthur likewise was born of Ygraine, when she was visited by a disguised Uther Pendragon). Talking of the subject, the Krayt dragons are living on Tatooine. Coincidence? Perhaps... And let us not forget the underground Camelot Anakin has wrought, complete with stone-hewn round table.

    If Anakin is Arthur, then it naturally follows that Padmé must be Guinevere (Gwenhwyfar in Welsh, meaning "the white spirit/shadow"), which goes rather well with the vision-apparition Anakin experiences in the last chapter. I also associate Obi-Wan with Galahad, because in the Arthurian cycle, Galahad is the supreme example of Knighthood, a strong ethical and moral character not unlike Obi-Wan. Though I suppose Obi-Wan could also be Lancelot, but I don't see him having a crush on Padmé. Yet in the Arthurian cycle, Lancelot has a liaison with Elaine, a maiden who looks like the Queen (in this case, would Elaine be Sabé?).

    As for Merlin, well, I cannot help but compare him to Dooku, because like the Count, he is eminently knowledgeable, and is not afraid of using his powers should the occasion call for it. He is both wise and mighty, completely apart from the common man. One particular legend tells of Merlin going to war with Arthur, and making the Pendragon on the King's standard take life and breathe deadly fire upon his enemies. A possible antecedent of Force lightning? One can only wonder.

    The story is yet young, however, and my ideas may be proved wrong. And I still don't know who are Bors, Ban, Gawaine, Yvain, Morgaine, Tristan, Iseut, Mark and the rest...

    Cheers,

    Lauré :)
  17. Mr_Black Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2004
    star 1
    My exposure to Arthurian mythology and the interpretation of the myths embedded therein extends shallowly into Mallory's Mort D'Arthur (I read it because I had to), and very deeply into White's The Once and Future King (I read it endlessly, because I'm internallly compelled to. This, I suppose, is another way of saying I had to read White's particular version, as well as Mallory's. The difference between my response to the two is: My compulsion towards White's work is twined with want and enthusiasm, which makes the task wholly different).

    I love TOFK because I believe the villain in that version of the Arthurian story is human nature. Human nature may well be the culprit within every revolution of the Cycle, as well as every after-the-fact forensic analysis of the tire tracks the over-arching Arthur story made in the paths and alleyways that define the evolution of English literature. My unique relation to White's work led me to feel the darkness essential to that story, and perhaps all stories. The feeling he inspired in me ignited a fervor not only to understand, but appreciate the value and depth of narrative. Since I believe all stories are essentially existential, dealing explicitly with human nature--contextualizing it, experimenting with it, celebrating it, condemning it, or perhaps doing both at different intervals. This inextricable connection to primal humanity revealed to me by TOFK showed me how story is human nature; reading and writing narrative of any stripe is a simultaneous examination and expression of fundamental humanity. It's why I'm a writer, and also, because of people like geo, a very appreciative reader.

    Wow, I wasn't expecting to write what I just wrote. I fear your inquiries nudged me off a precarious peak, and I tumbled, snowballing, until I landed in a disoriented heap with a ragged swathe cut deep in my wake.

    If you'd like, we could snare geo's versions of these characters and bind them to Arthurian analogues--in fact, I hope you would like to, because I think that'd be fun. Such an activity seems more appropriate for PM's, however. I sense we belong to a very specific niche, laure, one the rest of this thread's marketplace would not want to monopolize the real estate of this story's conversations and reactions. Feel free to drop me a line, if you're so inclined.
  18. nada_smith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2006
    star 1
    I just discovered this story recently. After catching up (and reading some of your older works) I have to say that you are an very talented storyteller. I really love your dead-on humor (e.g. Anakin confronting the owners of the no-longer-stolen ship). But you also made me feel Obi-wan's anguish acutely. That's a great range. There was much I loved about the early chapters, but others have already pointed out most things far more eloquently than I could. For the latest chapter, I thought it was perfect how you had Obi-wan answer each of Padme's escalating accusations with a bland affirmation. He doesn't try to defend himself...maybe because he still feels guilty about giving up on Anakin. I'm not sure if he regrets it in the sense that he'd make a different choice if he could do it again or only in the sense that he might wish he'd never been forced to choose between the Jedi and Anakin at all. Ok, rambling done. I love this story and am awed by your writing. Looking forward to seeing where you go with this.
  19. amidalachick Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 5
    Fabulous post! =D= Great conversation between Padmé and Obi-Wan, and I liked the little interlude with Sabé. And the ending is intriguing - are Anakin and Padmé's paths going to cross again...soon? [face_thinking]
  20. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Wow - some deep replies as usual - Me, I'm just going to have to sit back and watch!


    First, I wanted to say how seemlessly this AU blended in with the original - even without Anakin's presence, it would be so very easy to see this onscreen..


    I only pulled a small portion out, but I for one happen to like this Padme - she's strong, still a Senator, and yet still very much true to Padme...

    And so it begins...
  21. geo3 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    It certainly has been a week of good reading, and I don?t mean the story! I?ve been richly entertained and enlightened by your profusion of discursive posts. I have also been challenged. Just when I thought I?d managed to reply to everyone more or less adequately, another explosion of discussion appeared!

    I?ve enjoyed every word, as I always do, and shall endeavor to respond fully where I have been addressed directly. I won?t try to jump into conversations that are directly addressed to someone else, although of course I?m always available via PM if my input is wanted.

    It?s posting day again, but first, a few more replies...

    GunraysLawyerWow, rarely, have I ever received both an intellectual and friendly/humorous evisceration in one thread.

    Oh, say it isn?t so... surely you don?t mistake cheerful poking for bloody combat! If you do, a thousand apologies, and may you and your lineage rule for a thousand years...

    Actually, I?m thrilled to have received your Four Points. As an incredibly busy grownup, you have a habit of leaving tantalizing comments on the fly that leave me wishing for more explication. I appreciate your time, your bluntness of explanation, and your examples. You make a good case for your viewpoint, and I like very much seeing it side by side with the others. I?m not even going to argue ? I have some different ideas, of course, but they arise out of my personal beliefs about life, the universe and everything, and anyway, I suspect that I?m better off writing stories than essays. Thank you, though.

    Well, I expect that this will satisfy no one, and convince others that I am a fool, and barely tolerable. Good, I say. I agree with Chesterton in that tolerance is only a virtue if you don't believe in anything.

    No fool you, Counselor, and not only tolerable, but much appreciated. [face_laugh] at Chesterton! Ouch ? but he probably has a point...

    Mr_Black In fiction, full teacups simply give somebody something to do with their hands. Empty ones? Well, these can put the past in context and give hints about the future, forestall or accelerate Armageddon, and facilitate an excuse for Anakin's convenient escape to the fresher once lecturing!Obi gets on a roll.

    LOL! I stand corrected. Full teacups are powerful.

    Please trust me when I say, you are not to be counted among their number. For one, you have a tendency to finish what you start (bless you). That I have yet to be there at the end is not a reflection on you or what you write. Rather, it's simply an indication of my having paid for the plotline of the saga on DVD (and once more on blu ray, as the world turns). Especially given these times, investments must be respected and appreciated.

    Well, hopefully I will finish this one too. It seems to be a long one, and who knows, I could get hit by a bus...

    Can dive in, or have to dive in? Word on the street is Peril can be pretty pushy.[i/]

    I need the occasional push, I won't lie.

    I can give you a pass. This time.

    Much appreciated.

    Padmé You went ahead and accented the terminal 'e' in her name from my original post, didn't you? I'm sensing a pet peeve.

    What you are sensing is nothing more than the proclivity of my word processor to belch out evil green underlines every time a word is spelled differently than its years of training would have it believe is right, compounded by my equally long training in correcting said green-underlined words without giving it much thought. I did not mean to offend or to imply irritation. Oddly, when I changed operating systems, I lost the ability to add accents where needed, so that more recently used words like ?Corde? will forever lack the required accent in my text.

    Thank you for the hot chocolate, though. It was delicious.

    I will step aside and allow Darth_Null and GunraysLawyer to answer the comments you directed to them, if they so choose.

    laurelthiel1138 I would like to further elaborate on what Ratna said earlier, and on some of the responses I've seen.

  22. geo3 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    Chapter 5. Messages (Part 1)

    Somewhere in the great void of space, the luxury starship Serena hurtled toward the Outer Rim carrying a single passenger. Originally a Kuati design, later highly modified and personalized, she was unusual among private vessels in that she was entirely staffed and operated by droids. While hundred-percent automation was common among freighters and transports, the wealthy who could afford colossal luxury yachts like the Serena tended to staff them with sentient servants and crew, and fill them with doting hangers-on. After all, what good is ostentation if it cannot be shared? How comforting is splendor if one is alone in the vastness of space?

    The lone sentient being on board the magnificent Serena cared little for ostentation. He was far more interested in preserving his privacy.

    In fact, for a man who oversaw enormous enterprises, and who used his great talents in persuading vast crowds of the rightness of a radical set of ideas; for a man who was considered charismatic and a natural leader, and who presided over the work and the hopes and dreams of millions of sentient beings, Count Dooku of Serenno spent remarkably little personal time in the company of other people.

    He wondered about that sometimes.

    Privacy was a necessity, yes; but often (too often, perhaps?) it was a preference. After all, any truly gifted individual had a difficult time finding stimulation in the company of ordinary people. A person whose fortunes had placed him at the confluence of mighty streams of destiny was even less likely to find himself among equals.

    Besides, he often reminded himself, people were unreliable and inefficient. For real accomplishment of tasks, he counted on droids. He had hundreds of thousands under his command, directly or indirectly. Privately, Dooku enjoyed the irony that the political movement that swept the Galaxy in his name, inspiring millions of sentient beings to passionate action, was quietly and efficiently run by machine intelligence. Even the political leadership and the organizers did not know just how flimsy their ranks were, or that the heart and soul of the Separatist movement was little more than an elaborate clockwork: consistent, efficient, and tireless.

    But herein lay his immediate problem. Because Dooku?s droid-run organization was designed to shield him from all details (and people) that he did not care to deal with ... because it was built on impersonal logic and unquestioning obedience, it was not possible for a personal message from someone utterly unknown to him, and of only infinitesimal importance in one of his many endeavors, to find its way to his personal attention.

    A yet it had happened. The incalculable probability had clicked through to its final sum, and Count Dooku had received a message that should never have arrived in his private quarters.

    He stared at it, far more fascinated by the inconceivable number of flukes, happenstances, and twisted connections that it represented, than by the message itself.

    A Thirlian named Dorn Wieeder, who was apparently in his employ (but whose acquaintance Dooku had no intention of making, now or ever) had taken it upon himself to send Dooku a personal message from a planet called Tatooine, which, he recalled dimly, was somewhere low down on a list of Outer Rim planets soon to be enclosed in the Separatist fold. Otherwise, the planet had no strategic value other than its relative proximity to Geonosis, where Dooku?s attention did dwell at the moment.

    In the privacy of his spacious study on the Serena, Count Dooku, enemy of the Republic, former Jedi, and apprentice to a certain dark figure whose very existence augured the ascendance of the Sith, permitted himself a moment of utter, receptive stillness: the mental attitude of a predator sniffing the wind. Nothing in particular registered, neither the prickle of danger not the scent of opportunity. There was only the message, and the inexplicable fact of its arrival, and of course, that one little item withi
  23. GeneralKenobi7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2009
    star 4
    First reply![face_dancing]
    Mmmh, I wonder what Dooku is up to...
    And Anakin falls in love with Padme in this story, too, judging by the type of woman he looks at:p
    I hope he'll meet Obi-Wan eventually :)
  24. ratna Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2007
    star 4
    ...the heart and soul of the Separatist movement was little more than an elaborate clockwork

    A heart and soul that is clockwork -- wow, what a rich and deep and iconic oxymoron.

    Certainly it riffs on Anakin in the suit (though I doubt that he is headed there in this story).

    More centrally, how perfectly it sums up the Life-denying, Force-denying nature of the the Sith will to power; which relegates all entities beyond the self to the status of object ~ 'a dead thing you can claim'.

    And yet, methinks this vast mecha clockwork that Dooku has labored and brought into being is not half so horrifying as the 'wet' clockwork of the Clone Army; with which Palpatine is planning to (eventually) replace the droids (and Dooku, one presumes).

    And is not this final solution -- the conversion of living beings into cogs in a machine -- a perfect embodiment of the reflection back onto the soul of the clockwork projection? The final rebound of the karma of objectification, one becomes what one has projected: the self's own heart and soul become a clockwork, in dead and sterile and lonesome sovereignty.

    Final sidebar to this train of thought: 'elaborate clockwork' is precisely our own culture's modern view of what the universe is .... I wonder what that says about us?

    *

    I love your characterization of Dooku.

    A Thirlian named Dorn Wieeder, who was apparently in his employ (but whose acquaintance Dooku had no intention of making, now or ever) [face_laugh]

    He is engaged in a soul-denying enterprise, and yet his senses are attuned to the utter, receptive stillness of deep spiritual practice.
    He is curious.
    He possesses a fine sense of the absurd.
    He is superior and makes no apology for it, yet at this key juncture, he chooses to get his hands dirty.

    What a complex foil he will be for Anakin. I CAN'T WAIT!!

    *

    Anakin's posse -- wow, gotta love those rough hewn men. You draw their characters so well, too. The salt of the earth. The stalwarts. *sigh*

    ?He said to find him a starship with a good hyperdrive that can be got for barter. It?s got to be small enough so it doesn?t need a crew.?

    ?Damn,? Remy muttered.


    I would like to see lots and lots of this guy in the story, please.

    @};-
  25. amidalachick Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 5
    Great introduction to Dooku. I especially liked these lines:
    It had been a long time since anything had surprised him.

    It had been a long time since he had gotten his hands dirty.

    It had been a long time since he had smelled blood.


    And loved the cantina scene, and Anakin's posse! Like ratna said, they're so well-drawn and just really come to life.

    Another wonderful post! =D=
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