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Forum Debate: Anakin Skywalker, tragic hero or cowardly traitor?

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Oct 10, 2000.

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  1. Qui-Gon_Lennon

    Qui-Gon_Lennon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2000
    I think the fundamental difference between Luke and Anakin is there sense of fear. Luke is naive, and sort of ignorant, and he got a pretty swelled head I imagine by blowing up the death star. All throughout the films, Vader was impressed at how he had "controlled his fear." And Luke seemed pretty confident that Luke did not have a great deal of fear in him.

    In Anakin's case, especially with TPM, the idea of fear seems to be a major foreshadow. There was a cut scene where Anakin talks about how he tries to control his fear, and Padme asks if it always works, and he says "to a point." Vader probably fears the emperor his entire life up until that final moment. Yoda sensed much fear in him, and Lucas said that all the elements of Anakin's downfall were introduced in TPM. Yoda didn't accuse Anakin of being too overconfident, (or reckless, as was Luke or Obi-wan,) he accused him of being too afraid. No where in any of the movies did it say that Anakin was an especially brave warrior, or fearless. It is more or less inferred that Obi-wan was that type of warrior. I really think Anakin is a total wuss, that is why he turns to darkness. He can mask his fear with anger. It makes perfect sense.
     
  2. Rilina

    Rilina Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2000
    Of course fear *can* lead to cowardly behavior. Anakin *might* turn out to be a coward, but we can't know that until we see what he *does* in E2 and E3. We know there is fear in him, but fear does not automatically lead to cowardly behavior (see my previous post). Anakin seemed pretty brave to me in TPM. So I still say we have to wait and see to find if Anakin is ultimately a coward in the PT.
     
  3. SSJ2 Gohan

    SSJ2 Gohan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 1999
    Anakin's portraiture, his mode of debut to us, it accommodates the niche which tragic/fallen heroes occupy. As a child, his cognomen was "Ani." His persona emanates callow yet cogent disposition. He loves his mother, altruistic in many ways such as aiding Qui-Gon, and exhibiting no traces of choler or ire. It was Lucas's aim to depict Anakin as an amiable, affable boy for a first impression, this is why he excised the Wald/Anakin scene of their discourse about Anakin's status as a slave. Our immediate notion of Anakin is solely of a callow/elated boy.

    His fall as he maturates is tragic; the audience ought to empathize with his circumstances.

    Now, Anakin's circumstances are analogously akin to Little Emily of Dickens' "David Copperfield." Emily is depicted as Anakin was with a youthful cognomen of "Little Em'ly." She is delineated as a mirthful and self-sacrificing little girl when she was young. As she grew, those lineaments were forsaken. She fell by having amours, yet while she was sinful, we were to empathize as well.

    Anakin was a tragic hero, IMO, if only extrapolated on his initial/prefatorial portraiture. We need to know the circumstances of his fall to debate further.
     
  4. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Well, I personally would base this one on speculation. And from what I have heard, it sounds like fear will be a big part of Anakin's turn. I also think it adds a unique charecter trait to Anakin. I mean, we already have headstrong brave Luke, and Obi-wan is the wise headstrong hero of the PT, so I think it would be very interesting if Anakin had a problem overcoming fear. It would add a unique flaw that you wouldn't associate with the most powerful Jedi. A Jedi so immensley powerful, with his own potential so huge, to be equally afraid, of his mortality, of his own abilities. This would give Anakin much more of a personality, rather than just the arrogant hero.
     
  5. hew

    hew Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 1999
    Just a note - the fear the Council senses in Anakin is a fear for his mother, not a fear out of cowardice...
     
  6. Qui-Gon_Lennon

    Qui-Gon_Lennon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2000
    Yes, but that was one of the things they sensed. Yoda, again, without refering to his mother, said that there was "much fear" in him. Plus, fear leads to cowardice, fear makes you a coward. ANd is everyone forgetting that fear is a huge part of the darkside?
     
  7. Rilina

    Rilina Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2000
    >>fear leads to cowardice, fear makes you a coward.<<

    No. It doesn't. Not everyone who feels fear acts like a coward. In my opinion, some of the bravest people I know are those who feel fear and still persevere and do something hard.

    Cowardly behavior can be motivated by lots of emotions. Greed, indifference, etc.

    So fear does not automatically lead to cowardly behavior. Saying it does is like arguing, "I felt nervous before my midterm. I must have failed." Nervousness and failure can be connected, but very often they are not. As my psych professor used to yell: "Correlation does not equal causation."
     
  8. SSJ2 Gohan

    SSJ2 Gohan Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 1999
    Yes, as of TPM, Anakin's temperament reflects some disquietude and concern for his mother, but fear is a far too immoderate a delineation. In any case, he's 9, he's satiated with his eligibility as a Knight. While the inquietude for his mother undeniably protrude in the far realms of his mind, he's far too engrossed in the loss of Qui-Gon and his ulterior counsel from Obi-Wan to the path of Knighthood.
     
  9. Beowulf

    Beowulf Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 28, 1999
    Tragic hero/tragic bad guy
     
  10. rogueleader16

    rogueleader16 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2000
    Everyone fears something or another during their life. Look at Obi's reaction when Qui-Gon is struck down and Maul turns around and stares him down. Just by the look in Obi's eyes and the way he swallows hard you can tell he is completely filled with fear. When that gate opens he focuses and dispels any thoughts of fear from his mind.
    Fearing something or someone doesn't make you a coward. Everyone gets scared. What makes one a coward is when he or she DOES give in to his or her fears.
    That is also a lesson to be learned from the cave scene on Dagobah in ESB. When Yoda tells Luke that he doesn't need his lightsaber, but he takes it anyway Luke had already given into fear. Hence, when he strikes down "Vader" the face in the helmet is his own. The message is if you give into fear as Anakin did you will suffer the same fate. Furthermore, it doesn't matter who you are. Wasn't Yoda's warning to Luke, "Be mindful of what you have learned, or suffer your father's fate you will."
    Finally, to truly determine whether Anakin is a tragic hero or cowardly traitor we need to know why and how he turns. We already know greed has a lot to do with it, but not much more than that. I also don't think it is "greed" as we traditionally think of it.
    In the Moyer interview Lucas states that this type of "greed" has to do with not being able to let go. I believe that Anakin is going to put his personal agenda above the good of others and use his status as a Jedi Knight to get the things he wants. Not material possessions, but things like freeing his mother and the slaves, when there are more pressing problems that need to be resolved. These are noble efforts, but due to situations that will pop up in E2, perhaps these aren't in the interest of the common good.
     
  11. Darth-Seminole

    Darth-Seminole Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2000
    All of the above.

    The circle is complete in the end of ROTJ.

    Hero -> Traitor/ Murderer/ Tyrant -> Hero again (after saving son, killing Palpy, and sacrificing self in the process)

     
  12. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Nobody said that if you have fear, you are a coward. I think what Qui-gon Lennon was trying to say was to the previous post, that fear leads to cowardice, not the other way around. If you are a coward, you have fear. That's all I think he was saying.
     
  13. Rilina

    Rilina Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2000
    Um, Obi-Wan McCartney and Qui-Gon_Lennon...I think most of us know you are the same person. I read the thread in communications where you talked about registering a sockpuppet.

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1115130&start=1117048#1117048

    Let's see what you've said:

    >>Plus, fear leads to cowardice, fear makes you a coward. <<

    >>Well, they did talk about Anakin have a great deal of fear. That Yoda sensed MUCH FEAR IN HIM. I think that makes him a qualify as a coward.<<

    >>Nobody said that if you have fear, you are a coward.<<
    I think you said exactly that in the previous two quotes. In the second quote particularly, you said Anakin's having fear makes him qualify as a coward.

    I think you're very wise to draw attention to the fact that Anakin feels fear in TPM. But Yoda's full quote is significant as well. He says, "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you." This suggests Anakin's fear will lead to anger and hate, which are not the same thing as cowardice. They're often connected, but they're not the same.

    We cannot answer the question of whether Anakin is a coward definitively until we see E2 and E3. And when speculating, we have to acknowledge that his fear may lead him to act in many different ways, not only as a coward.
     
  14. hew

    hew Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 1999
    I love it when members talk about, or to, their sockpuppet like no one knows they're the same person.
     
  15. Wald Balfed Your Mother

    Wald Balfed Your Mother Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2000
    Yeah, I think that's pretty funny, too.
     
  16. Qui-Gon_Lennon

    Qui-Gon_Lennon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2000
    Please! I am much better than that no talent hack McCartney!


    Ok, well I may have contradicted McCartney, but that means nothing. And I said Anakin was a coward, but what I meant to say, was that him having a great deal of fear, would lead me to believe that it is possible to label him a coward in speculation, that he will behave cowardly. Yes, this is pure speculation, and of course we can't know till 2002, but then why post at all if we can't post what we think will happen?






    (Did it really take a thread about sockpuppets to lead you to that conclusion?)
     
  17. Rilina

    Rilina Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2000
    Actually, you didn't *contradict* yourself--you tried to make it sound like someone agreed with your hypothesis that Anakin is a cowardly traitor. As for my disagreement--well, this is a discussion forum. When someone repeatedly puts forward a theory based on poor logic (such as assuming that having fear in one movie will automatically make a character a coward in the next movie or taking quotes like Yoda's out of context), another person is probably going to pop up and disagree with them. If it wasn't me, it would be someone else. If you're so offended by disagreement, you probably shouldn't have labeled this thread "Forum Debate".

    (I saw the thread about your sock puppet before I saw your sock puppet in action--so I've known from the beginning that you two were the same person. Of course, it's pretty obvious, so I'm sure I would have figured it out for myself fairly quickly if I hadn't seen that initial thread in communications.)
     
  18. Rilina

    Rilina Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2000
    addendum: (I hate when I remember something after my alloted 15 minutes of editing time are up!) On second thought, you did contradict yourself in the process of trying to defend yourself with your sockpuppet. The funny part is that you tried to make it look like you were right all along. Couldn't you have just said all the people who drew a distinction between fear and cowardice had a point?

    Anyway, I'll again acknowledge that I think Anakin *could* prove a cowardly traitor. I just don't think it's strongly foreshadowed that his fear (mentioned by Yoda in TPM) will lead to cowardice, and for any definitive answer, of course, we have to wait for E2 and E3.
     
  19. Qui-Gon_Lennon

    Qui-Gon_Lennon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2000
    Whoa, Rilina, I have no problem with anyone not agreeing with me. That is the point of the thread. I of course don't know what will happen, but I just state what I think, or maybe even more what I want to happen. I think Anakin is overrated, myself. I think that while it may be dissappointing for people to see there "hero" behave like a coward, but I think it would work.

    It's just too predictable for Anakin to get a swelled head, think that he is the greatest, believe Obi-wan is trying to harm or betray him, and become engulfed with rage over the death of a loved one. It's so predictable. Who doesn't think this will happen? It just goes to how we view Anakin. We think of him as Vader, so we assume that Anakin Skywalker will be a strong and powerful Jedi as well. I think that because Lucas laid the groundwork, with Anakin's deep-rooted fear, that it is plausible that this will be a big part of his downfall. I imagine it to be that Anakin is very powerful, and everyone praises him as a hero while he is a Jedi, doing great deads, but beneath it all he feels very afraid. And that he never learns to effectivly confront his fear, that he chooses only to mask it. Then, when the moment of truth comes for him to be all he can be, well, then the fear would overwhelm him. He will be doomed, and his only hope of survival will be darkness. And that will begin his path down the long and winding road to hell.
     
  20. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    Anakin Skywalker, a coward? I laugh. I believe Anakin will prove to be the noblest character in all of Star Wars.

    Anakin is the Chosen One, and has the greatest raw Force potential ever held by anyone. Since Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon refer to midichlorian concentration per cell rather than total midichlorian count in judging Force potential, we can assume that Anakin was still the strongest Force user ever even after his encounter with the lava pit. Anakin is clearly stronger in the Force than Palpatine ever could have been, and thus would have been able to repel any of Palpy's attempts to convert him to evil if he had so chosen.

    So, what could have lured Anakin to the dark side and held him there? There is only one possibility. Anakin went with Palpatine not because Palpy overpowered him, not because the temptation of the dark side was too great for the Chosen One to resist, but by his own choice to sacrifice himself to save his loved ones. Either Padme, Shmi, or both will be put into some kind of perilous situation engineered by Palpatine, and Anakin will give himself to Palpatine in exchange for his loved ones. I can picture Anakin on the brink of committing himself to the dark side forever, knowing he is about to condemn himself to eternal damnation, dreading it, but making that ultimate sacrifice because of his love.

    Look at the evidence: Shmi tells us her son knows nothing of greed, and freely gives to others. Perhaps this means Anakin would willingly give up his soul if it would save Padme or his mother? Jake Lloyd tells us the PT will forever change the way we see Darth Vader, filling us with sympathy for him from the outset. And we know George Lucas has a passion for creating parallels between his old trilogy and this new one, especially parallels between father and son. In RotJ, Luke was able to calmly face all of Palpy and Vader's threats directed at him personally, and was only driven over the edge when his beloved sister was in danger. Perhaps Vader, desperately searching for ways to penetrate Luke's imperturbable manner in RotJ, threatened to go after Leia because he was gambling that the same trick that had worked on him twenty years before would work on Luke as well?

    Anakin is certainly not a coward. We already have the evidence we need to show that Anakin surrenders himself to the dark side and subjects himself to terrible suffering because of his love for others. This was a great act of courage, Anakin's ultimate sacrifice. Couple this with Anakin's sacrifice for Luke at the end of RotJ, and we can see that Anakin retains his courage and nobility all throughout his life, even after two decades of withstanding the harsh crucible of the dark side. Anakin Skywalker is the bravest and strongest of them all, enduring a harder test by fire than almost any man has ever had to face.
     
  21. Rilina

    Rilina Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2000
    One reason that many of our theories about Anakin seem so "predictable" is their frequent reoccurence in myth. The same stories repeat over and over, in different cultures and traditions, and Lucas is very aware of that. I mean, it's not as if he invented the hero's journey that we saw in the OT; he was drawing on a long literary. Why then would Lucas refrain from drawing on the traditions for tragic heroes in the PT simply because it was predictable?
     
  22. rogueleader16

    rogueleader16 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2000
    I'm not sure giving into the dark side of the force is the same as selling your soul to the devil. I doubt you can give yourself up in order to gain something (like your mother's freedom). You have to willing choose a path that leads to evil. I think we will have a very different opinion of Anakin/Vader after we've seen the entire PT, but I doubt I will consider him noble. I believe Anakin will be viewed as a tragic figure. When all is said and done he will be viewed as one who thought he was doing good, but really doesn't realize that he is giving into greed until it is too late. I just can't consider Anakin a noble person because of the acts he does as Vader. I don't care what happened in the past.
     
  23. hew

    hew Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 1999
    "Anakin went with Palpatine not because Palpy overpowered him, not because the temptation of the dark side was too great for the Chosen One to resist, but by his own choice to sacrifice himself to save his loved ones."

    Arrggghhh!! That would be the biggest cop-out Lucas could pull, making Anakin's turn to the Dark Side some kind of noble and admirable sacrifice.

    Here's that quote from McCallum again. I hope it turns out to be true:

    Then
    on the background of the
    Clone-Wars, he
    becomes a great hero,
    and on that moment
    pride, ego and
    selfishness take over
    and he chooses to go to
    the Dark Side. And rest
    of the movie is really
    about the consequences
    of what happens when
    you don't take
    responsibilities of your
    own action, and when
    you think you're better
    then anybody else.

    It's okay to feel some pity for Anakin, for the person he could have been had he not turned, had he realized he true potential without the turn to the Dark Side, but the ones making a sacrifice should be Obi-Wan, Amidala, and Yoda. That's where the real tragedy should lie. Anakin makes his own choices. Those around him don't get to. They have to suffer because of his.
     
  24. Qui-Gon_Lennon

    Qui-Gon_Lennon Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2000
    Oh, and Dark Lady Mara, Vader/Anakin is not the most powerful Jedi by any strech of means. Not by a long shot.

    Lucas said in an interview, that the reason Vader did not use the force to throw objects and Obi-wan in ANH like he did at Luke in ESB is because Obi-wan was more powerful than Vader. He said, that if Luke was at a force level of like 2 in ESB, than Vader was at a FORCE level of about 4, and Obi-wan was at a level of six. So, at no point in his life did Vader EVER reach the level of ability that Obi-wan did. So Palpatine is probably the most powerful, because if anyone was stronger than him, they would have just taken him out.
     
  25. yodaman

    yodaman Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 1999
    Well Lennon, I do remember Lucas saying that in the annotated screenplays. That doesn't necessarily mean it'll be the case though because at this point it stands as EU. Lucas also wanted the emperor to be some weakling who was manipulated by his advisors and people around him, according to the ANH novelization, but we all know Lucas scrapped that idea. And I also agree with hew that Anakin chooses the darkside for his own selfish purposes. If Anakin were to make a sacrifice in the middle of the saga, it'll just make his sacrifice at the end of the saga anticlimatic.
     
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