Forum Debate: Anakin Skywalker, tragic hero or cowardly traitor?

I like hew's post. I don't think Anakin is going to seek the dark side, it's going to find him. Let me clarify my view. I think something is going to happen where Anakin is going to do something that is "greedy and prideful," but from his viewpoint it's the "right" thing to do. That will be the "tragic" part of his fall, he will be tempted by the dark side while doing something he mistakenly feels is right. WHAT he is going to do is anybody's guess at this point. This will start him on the path to the dark side. From then on it's his choice. I believe he is willingly going to accept his turn to the dark side and join Darth Sidious. I think it's really going to be lame if Anakin is somehow "suckered" into this. I certainly agree with hew on this.

 

He's no coward!!! Anakin like Luke only fears for the people he loves. Anakin was always cocky about his abilites(I can fix anything,... the fastest pod ever, and so on. He is cocky, fearless, impatient, and reckless. He underestimated the power of the emporer, faced him to soon, and gave in to his hate.

 

Anakin had the most potential power as a jedi, but he did not have sufficient wisdom to wield the power he had. He was ment as a tool for good, to bring balance to the force, take out the sith. He made the mistake to give in to his hate, but to face his destiny, face his past mistakes, fulfill the prophecy, and face his fear(the emporor) took more courage than you could imagine. Courage worthy of a ancient hero.

 

Well sure, when it finally came down to the last possible second, when all hope was lost and his son was being fried like eggs, Anakin came through in the clutch. At that point, yes, he becomes a Jedi again.

However. I am talking about Anakin's basic personality. I fear that if Anakin is just the golden boy who gets a swelled head, we are going to have the rest of the Star Wars series end up like ROCKY V. Anyone remember that movie? I'll buy Yoda Soda's and Scotch to the next guy who can explain how ROCKY V and Episode II and III will have virtually the same plot outline.

 

Qui-Gon_Lennon: Was Anakin the most powerful Force-user ever? No. But he unquestionably had the greatest potential of any Force-user. Although Luke had virtually no training in use of the Force at the time of the Battle of Yavin, he was able to put his raw potential to work for him. Anakin's potential could have served him in the same way. In fact, the effect Anakin's turn to the dark side may have had on his ability to develop that raw potential into focused ability is just another argument for sympathizing with Anakin, the tragic hero who was felled by one small flaw.

Ewan-Kenobi: Anakin is so arrogant in TPM? He's a nine-year-old kid in TPM. No matter what you think of his remarks on his podracing ability and other such superlatives he holds, he is unusually unselfish for anyone of his age. The typical nine-year-old is completely incapable of showing the type of compassion Anakin shows in TPM. If anything, what we've seen of young Anakin lays the roots for us to believe that he will grow up to be extremely generous and giving, not the opposite.

hew: McCallum has been known to spread some bantha poodoo in the past, and I pray that quote will prove to be another example of it. If Anakin is so flawed as McCallum would have us believe, if he is nothing more than an example of how to do absolutely everything a Jedi can do wrong, he loses his status as a tragic hero. The entire Star Wars saga becomes shallow and meaningless if you say its central character is basically flawed with a few points of light, rather than basically good with a few minor flaws.

If Anakin were really so conceited as you would have us believe, I doubt the good in him could have survived twenty years of darkness. The dark side is supposed to start to control a Force-user the moment he begins to use it, yet Anakin somehow maintained some morals and some good for all that time. There is no way he suddenly decided to act on his son's behalf at the end of RotJ - the conflict within him visibly grows all throughout RotJ, and was probably brewing for a long time before that. Where were those insidious talons of the dark side then? If Anakin were so flawed that he had been truly corrupted by the dark side at some point in his life, he would have stood by and watched as Palpy slowly killed his son.

 

I don't think tragic heroes are always mostly good with one flaw. Yes, they do have one tragic flaw. But that doesn't necessarily imply that the rest of them are likable. I'm thinking of characters like Macbeth, King Lear--who aren't very good even before their fall.

I guess I don't think Anakin will be as good as DLM suggests or as bad as some other posters have suggest. I believe the true tragedy of the PT will be in watching the transformation of as essentially good little boy into a dark, evil man (well, until his redemption way later in ROTJ). And during the transformation the viewers should be torn, liking and despising him simultaneously.

Just my personal preferences....

 

Kind of like Michael Corleone. I also prefer to call Anakin "one of" the central charecters, not "the" central charecter. There is no way anyone will convince me that Luke is a supporting charecter.

 

vader is the hero. he only killed 2 people - ob1 and captain antaries. and they both made full recoveries.

 

I'd say Anakin is the central character of the entire story arc (eps I-VI), but Luke is the central character of the OT.

 

rilina, i don't find king lear a bad character, goneril and regan; they are bad characters!

actually, your mentioning king lear has reminded me of another 'tragic hero' aspect to anakin. a lot of tragic heros, especially in shakespeare reject people who are there to help them, and misunderstand the relationship/mistrust them etc: hamlet does this to ophelia, king lear to cordelia and kent. i think at some point anakin will reject padme, and probably obi-wan. they often place their trust in a bad person, often one who has deceived them (eg. king lear's trusting of goneril/regan). in SW the bad person he trusts could be palapatine.

there is normally one good person who remains faithful to the hero to the end (kent in lear and horatio in hamlet)... maybe this is obi-wan

i don't know... i think anakin is a hero, and a tragic one too!

 

all right, this Anakin central charecter debate can be discussed on another thread right here on this page. (I brought it back up. Anakin maybe a central charecter per se, but he is NEVER the lead charecter.)

Oh yeah, Vader killed WAY more than two people! All those pilots in ANH, all his own men in ESB, and he commanded the attack, so anyone is men killed, plus anyone else we didn't see him kill off screen.

 

At the beginning of the play, King Lear may not be an evil man, but he's rather greedy and demanding for affection from his daughters. I was just noting that not all tragic heroes are very likable even before their fall. Some are, some aren't. Tragic heroes are ambivalent and complex, never straight-forward.

Tragedy is all about exciting emotions in the audience (especially pity, grief, horror). I hope that the next two movies excite a full range of emotions in the audience--liking for Anakin, pity for Anakin, horror and dismay as he falls, and sorrow at what he becomes. IMHO, Lucas won't get those emotions if Anakin's too "good" or too "bad".

 

Dark Lady Mara: I just meant he was arrogant, but in an innocent nine year old way. He had great selflessness and compassion, but I believe that innocent overconvidence will be his undoing. He will underestimate the emporer.

This post is responding to the last post on the previous page.

 

from qui-gon-lennon:
"...However. I am talking about Anakin's basic personality. I fear that if Anakin is just the golden boy who gets a swelled head, we are going to have the rest of the Star Wars series end up like ROCKY V."

I agree with you 100%.

 

Neither King Lear nor Macbeth are bad characters. They just seem that way because the plays in which they appear are both "downhill all the way" - unlike most Shakespearean tragedies, they chronicle the hero's fall starting in Act I, rather than taking an act or two at the beginning of the play to show the rise of the hero, or how noble the tragic hero is. Even in Macbeth, we are told at the beginning of the play how honorable Duncan considers him to be. In Lear, the conversation between two of Lear's courtiers in the I.1 indicates that Lear was a wise and upright king before age and senility started to sink in. The tragic hero is always a character who is generally good, but is corrupted by but a few minor flaws.

 

Yeah, like Rocky V, and nobody wants that!

 

The ego and the hubris that surrounds it is a classic motif that has been widely used to express the nature of the tragic hero. It hasn't survived over such long periods because it was always the newest or freshest idea, but because it contains the most drama and more importantly because it contains the most truth to human nature. As to why you chose Rocky V to be the prime literary example of expressing the motif of hubris, only one person truly knows the truth to this astounding mystery.

 

I'm saying that the way the series seems to be going at this point, Rocky V is what we are going to get.

 

I give up with you, McCartney.

 

Darn it Yodaman, that is the same kind of thinking that broke up the Beatles.


Rocky V. It is an example of how your tragic hero hubris motif crap can be misused to make a cheezy predictable film. I think we have enough films exploring the nature of humanity, why in a galaxy far far away. i would like some fresh new ideas.

 

I don't think we really have to worry about GL making a movie like Rocky V. Doesn't seem like his type of thing at all. Apples and oranges...

 

obi wan mcartney, all of the rocky films were 'cheesy and predictable' and i would hadly say that the 5th was an exploration of humanity, hubris, or of a tragic hero. i don't see any connection between rocky and SW.

 

I don't get the Rocky V analogy.

 

Um, do all of you REALLY think Lucas is doing all that? He may include it, but Lucas isn't writing a novel, or making a serious film about the exploration of human nature. He is making an entertaining movie with an engaging story.

Wasn't TPM cheesy and predictable? That doesn't mean it was bad, but it means just that.

I agree that Lucas has set up a very engaging galaxy, and a lot can be discussed and studied, but if any of you honostly believe that Lucas is doing anything but a fun adventurous film with dazzling special effects, then either you are all sadly mistaken or we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

Ok, Rocky V. Obi-wan is Rocky, Anakin is Tommy Gun, and the Emperor is the Don King charecter.


I hope it will be deep, I hope it will be amazing, don't get me wrong! But all I have heard two basic theories. One, the great noble Anakin becomes overconfident and cocky and this leads to his downfall, or the some-what romantic (cheezzzy though) notion that he turns to darkness in an attempt to save those he loves. That is all I am saying.

I hope lucas takes this Tragic Hero to another level. Yes, he can have a tragic flaw. I feel that Anakin's flaw is, and should be his own fear. Fear of himself, of his abilities, of the inability to live up to all the greatness of the prophecy, fear of not being good enough. I feel this fear of failure and rejection should haunt him at every turn, and finally he cracks. If it is just a case of Anakin getting too big for his britches, well, then a showdown in Rocky's streetcorner ring is what we will get. (Although, I have to admit, that was cool. And will still be cool in Ep. III if it goes down that way, but only that fight scene.)

I think people don't understand what I am saying, so I am trying to clarify.

 

"if any of you honostly believe that Lucas is doing anything but a fun adventurous film with dazzling special effects, then either you are all sadly mistaken or we have a fundamental difference of opinion."

Difference of opinion, as I mentioned a page or two ago. Apparently, at the very least, you think that GL was blowing smoke all over Bill Moyer, for a reason I can't fathom -- there's no need for him to pretend to be doing something more, as the films would undoubtedly make hundreds of millions of dollars with or without a rather ponderous PBS special. But maybe that's just how Lucas gets his kicks, playing intellectual for no good reason? Or maybe he really is trying to do something more than Rocky V (which is one of the weirder analogies I've seen around here).

And if Anakin being a coward appeals more to you, that's fine, but GL better get cracking. Anakin's not a coward as a nine-year-old child in TPM. He's not a coward as Vader in the OT. So, if he's going to suddenly become scared of himself, his power, of failure, of everything, or whatever, this better start manifesting itself pretty quickly in II & III, I think.